The Leviathan (Chapter 1)

"Just because you do not  take an interest in me, does not mean that i won't take an an interest in you!" -- The Leviathan 1972
"My life flows into the Leviathan and its life flows into me " -- Bozo Faust 2013
...
"I say that the only rules that become habits are the ones you create internally & practice" -- Magor 2013
"Your individual life flows into mine.   Your rules can become your habits if you can implement them well ... when that scales to me, your laws become my habits.  Those look like institutions to you. " -- The Leviathan replying to Magor
...

Tags

  1. leviathan
  2. mixed media
  3. see also pericles
  4. chapters leviathan

Comments


Seth says
16920 seems to differ.

Seth says
ME 2013-11-26 10:54:48 16910
Thanks, I am done with conversations which live mostly in definitions of words where you & I differ on semantics & ontology.  Such will simplify my life. I will probably continue to go for the "direct experience" which lives outside of words, haggling & confusion of collapsed meanings. I have already grocked several.  I miss such a flavor (even) of "direct experience" in your Leviathan . Leviathan as Seth's mythological creature,  is not even sensible to the 5 major physical senses.


well i don't think it is a good idea to avoid conversation just because words mean different things to each of us ... with good will and honest conversation we can learn to choose those that mean the same.   certainly i am reaching for something here with The Leviathan ... skiing right on the edge of things that can be directly experienced and those which must be imagined for them to become.   i'm sure you will leave the conversation or simplify your life when you actually do.

Seth says
ME 2013-11-26 16:56:12 16910
FYI - today's viewpoint from Paradise - synchronicity eh? - P1985 of the Tai Shu commentaries - Nov 1970 - last sentence !


yes ... "each thought is a living being" ... me, i especially like to make the honest ones be.

Seth says
ME 2013-11-26 08:46:20 16916
source: ... when does a pattern become a being?  when is a pattern being?

then too think ... how does a pattern become aware of itself?  ... especially if we are part of it?
... I don't think patterns become aware of themselves.  I am not a pattern. When we were kids the folks used a pattern to make clothes.  The patterns themselves did not become aware of themselves.
Anthroposophically, all thoughts are beings of some kind with some level of consciousness which is a primary category (see Aristotle). There is also beings that are not thoughts. But,,... one might have to concede to using some metaphysics or spiritual science to grok that.


... well bear in mind that "pattern" is just a natural language word which can mean different things to different people and in and of itself is a collapse of something that may well be quite real apart from those linguistic processes.  there is a big distinction that we can draw between a mold, like your clothes patterns, and things that form into and are considered patterns by other means.

so perhaps you will allow that i really do not know what you are asking when you ask, as did i, when does a pattern become a being?  ... or for that matter what the distinction is between being something and being a being.   Then too, no, i do now know how a pattern becomes aware of itself ... but there has been not just a little bit of discussion of that in the philosophy of AI.  Beign part of the pattern may make it more difficult for the pattern to become aware of itself ... or, who knows, it may make it easier. 

Strangely enough this may well provide the much needed drama that my telling of the story of The Levethan needs.   How does it communicate back to its members?  How do you communicate back to the nuerons that make up your brain?  How does a macro process effect its constituents?  I think that can be dramatized.

Of course this has also to do with spiritual science ... and that network of assumptions and beliefs and practices and facts that we inherited collectively from antiquity ... and personally from GW who got it mostly from RS and Crowley.  That must be part of the story ... how could it not ... for i am Vidar aka Bozo Faust. 

Seth says
seth 2013-11-27 07:16:54 16910
ME 2013-11-26 16:56:12 16910
FYI - today's viewpoint from Paradise - synchronicity eh? - P1985 of the Tai Shu commentaries - Nov 1970 - last sentence !


yes ... "each thought is a living being" ... me, i especially like to make the honest ones be.
going down the pathway of what honest means to you leads back to futility (for me).

<== nested tao

Seth says
One thing that i disliked was Stanley Kubrick's vision of the next evolutionary state of humanity in 2001 a space odissy ....
... but a next evolutionary step seem inivitable. 

i think we esperience this step from the inside ... not from the outside as in his vision.

but it makes sense that it starts as a baby ... and it might even start and stop ... it might even be a crazy baby ... who knows ... i certainly don't ... but i can think and observe and notice what new things are being in our humanity.

Seth says
seth 2013-11-29 09:16:34 16910
ME 2013-11-28 11:14:58 16928
source: ...
silence of ego
... Basically I have been doing again the zen exercises of just watching what goes through my mind without engaging it - just letting it go bye. It is a very fast moving river. Sooner or later one asks "who is the observer?" - but not during the exercise. If one looks in the triad environment outside, environment inside & mind one might miss it - not a physical entity.
"Who is the observer?" is such a chiggy question for me.  Mostly because of the "who" which asks for the identity of a thing.   er its name?  You see i am legally "Seth Russell" ... aka "Vidar" ... aka "Bozo Faust" ... hardly a thing to be sought unless you are the police or a bill collector attempting to connect that name to an address.  So surly the thing sought is what is implied by that name ... but that is a moving target, at least for me it is ... a humungous process with no crisp borders ... which, were they even definable, would be quite an arbitrary a capricious distinction just for me.  Instead i just go "A pattern of being that only i personally and uniquely experience has become aware of its own existence .... hello Seth!"   You may see that is quite enough knowledge about it to answer the question in language for me.

... but i know you do this differently and i respect that. You seem to have a practiced direct experience of a being.  well it  is good news to me that you experiences it ... and i truly mean that.  And, even though i don't have ... and i don't want that experience ...  it is quite enough for me that you have it ... for now i can experience it in you vicariously
!

but then is not "silence of the ego" something quite different??
I left out the ?  I don't know what the hell that phrase means.  The answer to a contemplation of who am I is NOT your name, nor your image on facebook or G+ etc,, following or fame; of that I can assure you. But maybe you prefer those to whatever else has shown up if you ever ask.


Seth says
ME 2013-11-28 11:14:58 16928
source: ...
silence of ego
... Basically I have been doing again the zen exercises of just watching what goes through my mind without engaging it - just letting it go bye. It is a very fast moving river. Sooner or later one asks "who is the observer?" - but not during the exercise. If one looks in the triad environment outside, environment inside & mind one might miss it - not a physical entity.
"Who is the observer?" is such a chiggy question for me.  Mostly because of the "who" which asks for the identity of a thing.   er its name?  You see i am legally "Seth Russell" ... aka "Vidar" ... aka "Bozo Faust" ... hardly a thing to be sought unless you are the police or a bill collector attempting to connect that name to an address.  So surly the thing sought is what is implied by that name ... but that is a moving target, at least for me it is ... a humungous process with no crisp borders ... which, were they even definable, would be quite an arbitrary a capricious distinction just for me.  Instead i just go "A pattern of being that only i personally and uniquely experience has become aware of its own existence .... hello Seth!"   You may see that is quite enough knowledge about it to answer the question in language for me.

... but i know you do this differently and i respect that. You seem to have a practiced direct experience of a being.  well it  is good news to me that you experiences it ... and i truly mean that.  And, even though i don't have ... and i don't want that experience ...  it is quite enough for me that you have it ... for now i can experience it in you vicariously
!

but then is not "silence of the ego" something quite different??

Seth says
seth 2013-11-29 12:43:07 16910
ME 2013-11-29 09:41:59 16910
seth 2013-11-29 09:16:34 16910
ME 2013-11-28 11:14:58 16928
source: ...
silence of ego
... Basically I have been doing again the zen exercises of just watching what goes through my mind without engaging it - just letting it go bye. It is a very fast moving river. Sooner or later one asks "who is the observer?" - but not during the exercise. If one looks in the triad environment outside, environment inside & mind one might miss it - not a physical entity.
"Who is the observer?" is such a chiggy question for me.  Mostly because of the "who" which asks for the identity of a thing.   er its name?  You see i am legally "Seth Russell" ... aka "Vidar" ... aka "Bozo Faust" ... hardly a thing to be sought unless you are the police or a bill collector attempting to connect that name to an address.  So surly the thing sought is what is implied by that name ... but that is a moving target, at least for me it is ... a humungous process with no crisp borders ... which, were they even definable, would be quite an arbitrary a capricious distinction just for me.  Instead i just go "A pattern of being that only i personally and uniquely experience has become aware of its own existence .... hello Seth!"   You may see that is quite enough knowledge about it to answer the question in language for me.

... but i know you do this differently and i respect that. You seem to have a practiced direct experience of a being.  well it  is good news to me that you experiences it ... and i truly mean that.  And, even though i don't have ... and i don't want that experience ...  it is quite enough for me that you have it ... for now i can experience it in you vicariously

!

but then is not "silence of the ego" something quite different??
I left out the ?  I don't know what the hell that phrase means.  The answer to a contemplation of who am I is NOT your name, nor your image on facebook or G+ etc,, following or fame; of that I can assure you. But maybe you prefer those to whatever else has shown up if you ever ask.


Do you not think it is strange and telling that you repeat back to almost the same kind of expression that i said to you as if it were new information coming to me ... and then ignore my other substantive treatment in the rest of the paragraph which i have bolded here should you be interested?  When that happens, and it does happen frequently, i think i have detected exactly where (i bolded it above) your stopped parsing my words and decided instead to respond to something with a bit more juice in it .

But to answer you question .. what i meant by the "silence of ego", i got it from ...
source: GW's "Silence - The Lightning Path"

Vanity and pride are habits that must be overcome by the adept who would learn to keep silence. The emotion connected with these habits is the specific expression of the ego. The real master has destroyed his ego and is therefore conspicuous in his manifestation through the absence of this emotion with its concomitant signs and indications. The black brothers are just the opposite; they are incomplete masters, not having conquered the Demon of the Abyss whose chief peculiarity is that he can never keep silence.
... albeit it was me who coined the specific term.
Sorry, you did NOT answer the question. He does not use the phrase "silence of the ego"! You wasted a lot of time in the rwg without an answer. You are in the habit of redefining words so I had to ask in the first place.  You answered by repeating back what I aready had.  You also defined the answer to the question "who am I" in part with your name - wonder why I was confused?


Seth says
ME 2013-11-29 09:41:59 16910
seth 2013-11-29 09:16:34 16910
ME 2013-11-28 11:14:58 16928
source: ...
silence of ego
... Basically I have been doing again the zen exercises of just watching what goes through my mind without engaging it - just letting it go bye. It is a very fast moving river. Sooner or later one asks "who is the observer?" - but not during the exercise. If one looks in the triad environment outside, environment inside & mind one might miss it - not a physical entity.
"Who is the observer?" is such a chiggy question for me.  Mostly because of the "who" which asks for the identity of a thing.   er its name?  You see i am legally "Seth Russell" ... aka "Vidar" ... aka "Bozo Faust" ... hardly a thing to be sought unless you are the police or a bill collector attempting to connect that name to an address.  So surly the thing sought is what is implied by that name ... but that is a moving target, at least for me it is ... a humungous process with no crisp borders ... which, were they even definable, would be quite an arbitrary a capricious distinction just for me.  Instead i just go "A pattern of being that only i personally and uniquely experience has become aware of its own existence .... hello Seth!"   You may see that is quite enough knowledge about it to answer the question in language for me.

... but i know you do this differently and i respect that. You seem to have a practiced direct experience of a being.  well it  is good news to me that you experiences it ... and i truly mean that.  And, even though i don't have ... and i don't want that experience ...  it is quite enough for me that you have it ... for now i can experience it in you vicariously

!

but then is not "silence of the ego" something quite different??
I left out the ?  I don't know what the hell that phrase means.  The answer to a contemplation of who am I is NOT your name, nor your image on facebook or G+ etc,, following or fame; of that I can assure you. But maybe you prefer those to whatever else has shown up if you ever ask.


Do you not think it is strange and telling that you repeat back to almost the same kind of expression that i said to you as if it were new information coming to me ... and then ignore my other substantive treatment in the rest of the paragraph which i have bolded here should you be interested?  When that happens, and it does happen frequently, i think i have detected exactly where (i bolded it above) your stopped parsing my words and decided instead to respond to something with a bit more juice in it .

But to answer you question .. what i meant by the "silence of ego", i got it from ...
source: GW's "Silence - The Lightning Path"

Vanity and pride are habits that must be overcome by the adept who would learn to keep silence. The emotion connected with these habits is the specific expression of the ego. The real master has destroyed his ego and is therefore conspicuous in his manifestation through the absence of this emotion with its concomitant signs and indications. The black brothers are just the opposite; they are incomplete masters, not having conquered the Demon of the Abyss whose chief peculiarity is that he can never keep silence.
... albeit it was me who coined the specific term.

Seth says
Well GW's paragraph, quoted above, within the context of silence, is describing what it is like not to have a  "silence of ego".  That is my answer to your question.  So if you want to understand my question (??) asked in 2013-11-29 09:16:34 above, just substitute the essence of GW's paragraph for my short tern "silence of ego".

In other words, i am asking you how your direct experience of "who you are" relates to GW's paragraph about a noisy ego?   In other words does a direct experience of who you are, silence your ego?  I ask because it seems to me that hyper experiencing  who i am would be the opposite of the silence of my ego. 

In other words, back to your original enlightening question, "Who is the observer?" ... is it a thing that is silent in the sense talked about here?  ... and if so, how would you ever detect its existence?

 

Seth says
seth 2013-11-29 21:18:24 16910
Well GW's paragraph, quoted above, within the context of silence, is describing what it is like not to have a  "silence of ego".  That is my answer to your question.  So if you want to understand my question (??) asked in 2013-11-29 09:16:34 above, just substitute the essence of GW's paragraph for my short tern "silence of ego".

In other words, i am asking you how your direct experience of "who you are" relates to GW's paragraph about a noisy ego?   In other words does a direct experience of who you are, silence your ego?  I ask because it seems to me that hyper experiencing  who i am would be the opposite of the silence of my ego. 

In other words, back to your original enlightening question, "Who is the observer?" ... is it a thing that is silent in the sense talked about here?  ... and if so, how would you ever detect its existence?

 
The silence talked about in Silence is the Lightening Path has nothing to do with the ego. He's talking about silence in an occult sense AND egotistical occultists in another.

Seth says
What would shorten the conversation is to show exactly where your point of view is expressed instead of showing a bucket & saying it is in there somewhere - since you made the original assertion re silence of an ego which I still don't get. Presumably you are talking about the Freudian sense of ego, superego & id or maybe the ego of egotistical or something else.

When I meditate & try to silence the conversations & chatter I don't ascribe the chatter & other shit to ego. You will have to make your own inquiry as to what is responsible for it if you have such.
  
In another sense the latin word ego translates as I which is closer to what you find by asking the question Who am I?   Again - direct experiences can't be explained or clothed in words.


Seth says
ME 2013-11-30 01:16:46 16910

The silence talked about in Silence is the Lightening Path has nothing to do with the ego. He's talking about silence in an occult sense AND egotistical occultists in another.

Well his saying  that "Vanity and pride are habits that must be overcome by the adept who would learn to keep silence. The emotion connected with these habits is the specific expression of the ego." sure seems to me to contradict your interpretation. 

There are many things that happen in my being that i would prefer would just shut up and go silent ... i say and feel things to myself that are not necessary.  Pure fluid action does not require such.  I talked before about a cloying self awareness that has plagued me my whole life ... part of that i want to let go.  Not that self awareness is bad ... just that at times it distracts.   When i feel myself in synchronism with the world i jump with joy ... but the jumping with joy is not the synchronism and tends to taint it.  i wish at times i could just do a good deed without all of that chatter.   When i come to a thing innocent and virginal with no thought or expectation it is so much more sublime.  I do believe that is the same silence that GW is talking about.   I especially liked how he spoke of the silence of God ... that then in the same breath, the silence of ego .... that was quit a revaluation to me.   Sometimes i think that cloaking this stuff in occult dogma just obscures it, making a simple thing that we directly experience obscure and inaccessible.

But please, could you tell me  in your own words, with no rwg, what is this distinction that you draw ??

Seth says
ME 2013-11-30 01:33:30 16910
What would shorten the conversation is to show exactly where your point of view is expressed instead of showing a bucket & saying it is in there somewhere - since you made the original assertion re silence of an ego which I still don't get. Presumably you are talking about the Freudian sense of ego, superego & id or maybe the ego of egotistical or something else.

When I meditate & try to silence the conversations & chatter I don't ascribe the chatter & other shit to ego. You will have to make your own inquiry as to what is responsible for it if you have such.
  
In another sense the latin word ego translates as I which is closer to what you find by asking the question Who am I?   Again - direct experiences can't be explained or clothed in words.


Well historically this word, "ego", has been kicked around not just a little bit ... and everybody and his mother is going to tell you what they think it is.  So now, me, i don't expect mine to be the same as yours nor the same as Freud's nor the same as Jungs, nor Skinner's or PR's, nor the same as Steiner's or Genesthai's or Gregoire's or Elane's.  I pretty much know mine, what it does, what it says, what it feels, and when it won't shut up.  I respect that you do as well.  I am also pretty sure that were i aware inside of your being,  i would be quite surprised about what you experienced yourself to be ... and reciprocally i expect that you would be surprised at what i experience myself to be.  But we can't do that ... which is, in itself, is quite a interesting predicament for us to be in ... and more importantly not a discrepency that needs to be talked away. 

But pleease expand on what kind of silence you think GW and AC are talking about ...

Seth says
"silence of the ego" is your distinction. What are you looking for?  I can & am in empathy with some of your comments of last, but they seem collapsed in with some kind of veiled rwg.  I can't answer your question because I don't really know what you are asking.

The occult sense of silence seems similar to LOA which I explained way back on 16928 - to wit:
source: ...

Most people wonder what the magic link between manifesting something you want to actually getting it.  (mind -> matter) The Secret claimed they had one.  Quantum Leap & Burt Goldman of Sylva Mind Control had/has another. The Magicians of the Golden Dawn, O.'.T.'.O, A.'.A.'. , G.'.B.'.G.'. & even scientology & Werner Erhard, Tony Robbins (NLP), LEC etc.  have theirs. The things you want are anything from union with God to winning the lottery & all the spectrum in between & outside of it including Buddha's enlightenment & eternal life, Samadhi, Nirvana,  health etc. Some repackage others' & try to sell it.
C.F.R.'s (GW's) is more interesting to me & I have done most of the rest with varying degrees of enthusiasm.
... I did leave out LOA from the list of similarities.
"Right Answers for right questions lie in wait." BC - many more if you look through the archive
It is hard to explain karma which is another factor not easily understood even from RS or GW but is a factor. Why do seemingly bad things happen when you do good things?
 




Seth says
Nobody else can tell you the answer to the question "Who am I?" .. you may finally be getting the point.  PR created an environment where you could focus upon the question/answer. If you had asked him to answer the question for you he might have done as most zen masters & bipped you upsiide the head!



Seth says
source: mark
The occult sense of silence seems similar to LOA which I explained way back on 16928
Well then is  "not seeking manifestations ... not lusting for the results" part of  "occult silence"  ??


Seth says
seth 2013-11-30 09:21:03 16910
source: mark
The occult sense of silence seems similar to LOA which I explained way back on 16928
Well then is  "not seeking manifestations ... not lusting for the results" part of  "occult silence"  ??

the word lust should be focused on not seeking!


Seth says
ME 2013-11-30 08:57:53 16910
Nobody else can tell you the answer to the question "Who am I?" .. you may finally be getting the point.  PR created an environment where you could focus upon the question/answer. If you had asked him to answer the question for you he might have done as most zen masters & bipped you upsiide the head!



yep .

if a zen master bipped me on the head i might just bip him back ... nothing is better than a bit of mutual enlightenment, eh?

Seth says
ME 2013-11-30 09:26:11 16910
seth 2013-11-30 09:21:03 16910
source: mark
The occult sense of silence seems similar to LOA which I explained way back on 16928
Well then is  "not seeking manifestations ... not lusting for the results" part of  "occult silence"  ??

the word lust should be focused on not seeking!


ok, so there are the same .   And is not doing rwg also part of occult-silence ??  ... even perhaps when one is hyper critical of one's self ??  ... and is that not pretty much the same as its opposite, feeling grandiose about one's self?   Silenceing all of that to me falls under the blanket term "silence of ego" and i still don't get any real tangeable distinction between that and your occult-silence.   So can tell me what i am missing here ??

Seth says
seth 2013-11-30 09:35:48 16910
ME 2013-11-30 08:57:53 16910
Nobody else can tell you the answer to the question "Who am I?" .. you may finally be getting the point.  PR created an environment where you could focus upon the question/answer. If you had asked him to answer the question for you he might have done as most zen masters & bipped you upsiide the head!



yep .

if a zen master bipped me on the head i might just bip him back ... nothing is better than a bit of mutual enlightenment, eh?
Yeah, I would love to see you hit Peter since he won the full contact martial arts contest in China & teaches tai chi, kung foo & all the rest.  Good Luck with your bravado.


Seth says
seth 2013-11-30 09:48:08 16910
ME 2013-11-30 09:26:11 16910
seth 2013-11-30 09:21:03 16910
source: mark
The occult sense of silence seems similar to LOA which I explained way back on 16928
Well then is  "not seeking manifestations ... not lusting for the results" part of  "occult silence"  ??

the word lust should be focused on not seeking!


ok, so there are the same .   And is not doing rwg also part of occult-silence ??  ... even perhaps when one is hyper critical of one's self ??  ... and is that not pretty much the same as its opposite, feeling grandiose about one's self?   Silenceing all of that to me falls under the blanket term "silence of ego" and i still don't get any real tangeable distinction between that and your occult-silence.   So can tell me what i am missing here ??
WTF on the red shit.
"occult-silence" is your coin not mine; don't try to collapse my statements into yours & claim agreement; you will do better otherwise. Explain it to yourself.  For starters I would remove the dash.
Occult as explained by GW best is just someone having different jargon than you do in a knowledge base you are unfamiliar.  Trigonometry of Pythagoras mystified some of his contemporaries as to how he could tell the height of a building without a measuring stick just from angles.
Aleister Crowley uses the motto on his printed books " The Method of Science ~ the aim of Religion"  & RS uses the term occult science often in his lectures. 
Silencing the inner junk of the mind assists you in seeing what else shows up; like maybe th"I" or "Ego" & maybe other kinds of consciousness.


Seth says
Well i'm just calling "silence of the ego" that which you refer to as "silencing the inner junk of the mind [to] assists you in seeing what else shows up".  Is that not what GW refereed to as "the fourth power of the Sphinx" ??

Seth says
seth 2013-12-01 09:10:32 16910
Well i'm just calling "silence of the ego" that which you refer to as "silencing the inner junk of the mind [to] assists you in seeing what else shows up".  Is that not what GW refereed to as "the fourth power of the Sphinx" ??
You can call your distinction whatever you want including pelliick, if you like. One has to be silent to realize the fourth power of any Sphinx one might encounter.


Seth says
ME 2013-11-30 08:57:53 16910
Nobody else can tell you the answer to the question "Who am I?" .. you may finally be getting the point.  PR created an environment where you could focus upon the question/answer. If you had asked him to answer the question for you he might have done as most zen masters & bipped you upsiide the head!


A nice/short Alan Watts video on the subject is here: http://www.finerminds.com/consciousness-awareness/the-answer-to-a-life-long-question-who-am-i/

... but again such is hard to grasp
in spite of how zen it is.


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  39. Thought Towards My Rational Morality with 0 viewings related by tag "leviathan".
  40. Thought Evolution & Involution & Revolution with 0 viewings related by tag "leviathan".
  41. Thought Leviathan vs God with 0 viewings related by tag "leviathan".
  42. Thought about: No One Can Make the Perfect TV, Not Even Apple with 0 viewings related by tag "mixed media".
  43. Thought Christianity should not be portrayed as a personal romance with 0 viewings related by tag "leviathan".
  44. Thought Real Communication with 0 viewings related by tag "mixed media".
  45. Thought The brain as a better model for describing the Internet with 0 viewings related by tag "leviathan".
  46. Thought Similarities with 0 viewings related by tag "mixed media".
  47. Thought about: The Gaia Hypothesis with 0 viewings related by tag "leviathan".
  48. Thought The emergence is a Jerk with 0 viewings related by tag "leviathan".
  49. Thought #transhumanism with 0 viewings related by tag "leviathan".
  50. Thought Mixed Media: or why it is better not to have artificial boundaries with 0 viewings related by tag "mixed media".