Consciousness


incidentally, while we are on the subject, there is something about my experience that i should be honest with you about.  when i gaze directly at (,contemplate, meditate, whatever) what i think people call my 'I' or my "consciousness" the thingey itself just hazes into oblivion ...  but i can construct, generate, synthacize, (train or learn), pretty much whatever emoition i happen to like in relation to it ... but i really do not feel any *truth* in the relationship of the thingey and the emotion ... you might say i am aware that i am just making it up. 

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yet when i actually interact ... when I rub against what otherness is out there ... in what i feel, say and do ... then I feel a truth ... i call that me being conscious ... or, me be-ing part of consciousness.

My consciousness is like the water pouring into the river

... and it pouring into me.

Tags

  1. ego
  2. consciousness

Comments


Seth says
source: mark
Cognition is not strictly speaking about consciousness it is about cognition which is what a person does with perception.
well what i call consciousness should not be so very separated from perception and cognition ... anymore than your nose should be separated from you face.  but then too i am pretty sure that what you call "consciousness" is not the same thing as what i am using that word to refer to.  after all it is just a natural language word, a football, that has been kicked around a lot by many different people and institutions.  there is no authority here, and there is no profit in it,  for us to duke it out between ourselves. 

all i know how to do usefully, is to talk about our inner experiences honestly and how they act with our surroundings and other people.   when we talk about that, i think we are talking about what i call "consciousness".  but then quite possibly you will think, "no that is not what i am calling 'consciousness' " ... and then you will point in a different direction and we can then talk about that other thing too.  i mean words are that way, we can bind them and unbind them and redefine them and if we stay focused still know, quite as precisely as we persevere, of what we talk between us. 

Seth says
Einai 2014-04-29 07:20:12 16978
seth 2014-04-29 07:18:20 16978
seth 2014-04-28 11:52:28 16978
Einai 2014-04-28 11:47:58 16978
Every little bit helps!




er, ... it's not politically correct to pee in the pool.

This is a metaphor which keeps giving.

How about a pool or water that does not flow, has no waters flowing in, has no waters flowing out ... what happens to it?

You see i actually believe that consciousness is not a property of a single individual being.  Rather it is a property of actions between beings.




I think he's peeing in the frog's mouth.

... yes, i didn't see that.  so in this case it is a rwg transaction.



Mark de LA says
Yeah - most people don't really think or give a shit about consciousness anyway so why talk about that distinction at all?
  In my world you have munged awareness with consciousness & gone for the awareness thing instead. In my world consciousness has the root for knowing laid out inside it with the root scio (know) in it sometimes - as in science. The word know may run into your bug-a-boos about truth so probably shouldn't talk about that either. Incidently, ming has the same characteristics as most ancient word media like hieroglyphics, and chee & your mentography and diagrams.  Maybe sum is inventing his own language. One could ponder, though, how communicative ming is. I prefer the notion of awake as in daytime consciousness rather than just aware which could be anything. Even a paramecium can be shown to be aware of something which threatens it's life or can be absorbed (eaten). Robots can do the same.
I ran into P.2413 of the Tai Shu commentaries yesterday which relates a bit - at least in my mind.

Beware of the Tower of Babel saga, though the mythology of language being split up - maybe we will end up with our own language and won't communicate at all.



Seth says
PS ... woopse i think i just guessed it.   My comment was ... er, to you ... my little piss into the ocean ... hence a target for cognitive dissonance.  Did i get it right?   I guess i missed that originally in the parse because i pretty much don't suffer from that peculiar dissonance myself ... or so i claim.  So everyting i say is not by me felt as insignificant ... even be it minusucal.  Er, .... especially if it has the possibility of shedding light on consciousness itself.

Seth says
Einai 2014-04-29 10:30:06 16978
seth 2014-04-29 10:06:52 16978
s
Einai 2014-04-29 09:41:33 16978
seth 2014-04-29 09:15:19 16978
Einai 2014-04-29 08:03:02 16978
Einai 2014-04-29 08:02:04 16978
just humor
It plays off the thingy by father who used to talk about "the old woman who pissed in the ocean".

hmmm ... i forgot that one ... how does it go?
"Like the old woman who pissed in the ocean said ... every little bit helps!"


but the metaphor keeps on giving.   see now that joke is about "cognitive dissonance"
This comment IS cognitive dissonance. PML & WTF as well

well i thought my comment would merely expresse that cognitive dissonance impinges consciousness and that we can play with it symbolically in the metaphor of flowing water.  now how "my comment itself *IS* cognitive dissonance" ... well i cannot guess that one ... either too deep for the likes of me ... or too tightly bound to your peculiar pool of the stuff.  ... and, yes, i can even get a bit of a chuckle there too .

Seth says
hmmm ... so now, were i have it right dear bro, i get the PML ... er ... still working on the WTF.

Mark de LA says
seth 2014-04-29 11:01:43 16978
hmmm ... so now, were i have it right dear bro, i get the PML ... er ... still working on the WTF.
Cognition is not strictly speaking about consciousness it is about cognition which is what a person does with perception. How cognitive dissonance got in here is my PML.  How you expressed things to get into this discussion of consciousness gets the WTF. For ME, this gets too nested in talking about talking about talking ....


Seth says
Einai 2014-05-01 09:26:05 16978
seth 2014-05-01 09:17:30 16978
Einai 2014-05-01 09:07:41 16978
not about discussing consciousness unless anything you discuss is in that topic.

yeah i think i know why you say that .  in your mind you have distinguished consciousness from awareness.  but in my mind those two things,  {consciousness, awareness}, form a spectrum.  Perhaps we should dwell on that a moment and see if we can at least understand how each of us has it differently connected.
Munge on - anything is anything. Look in the news, though & it if full of discussion on [topics racism].
AMF (adios)....

well yes of course ... thanks for providing yet more evidence for my thesis: the more we talk about a thing the more we become aware of it.  the more we focus on a thing the more of it we see ... the more we pay attention to it, the more important it becomes to us. 

another example of this would be some thing never noticed before ... but once it is noticed, perhaps even given voice, or named ... i guarantee you will see more and more of those things. 

Your trick, from my perspective, is going to be to draw a binary distinction between that kind of recognition and its qualities and what *you* call "consciousness".  I am all ears Mark.

Seth says
incidentally this effect is why i though your post on Facebook was so very hilarious

Seth says
well i am still listening for your grand distinction between consciousness and being aware.  me, i claim that we have a spectrum between them and not a distinction. 

but i don't want to stop here, so going on with responding to your train ...

source: mark 2014-04-30 07:35:40
I prefer the notion of awake as in daytime consciousness rather than just aware which could be anything. Even a paramecium can be shown to be aware of something which threatens it's life or can be absorbed (eaten). Robots can do the same.
I like the notion of "awake" too ... and all of its connotations.  Notice one:  people from the outside of you can tell whether you are awake or not.  And for robots, we have the Turing test to make the  decision, awake/not.  that distinction is made from the outside the robot based upon a human's authority.  No robots have passed that test ... and may, at a profound level, never pass it.  I don't know ... but in any case that is way in the future beyond my life.

My thesis here is that awakeness, consciousness, the extreme end of awareness, is a property of dynamic interaction.  To take away the interaction, and still talk about consciousness, is to make a category error.

Seth says
Einai 2014-05-01 08:35:51 16978
seth 2014-05-01 08:22:05 16978
Einai 2014-05-01 07:29:28 16978
seth 2014-05-01 06:30:59 16978
source: mark
Yeah - most people don't really think or give a shit about consciousness anyway so why talk about that distinction at all?
Well it is kind of a chicken and egg thingey ... talking about it makes people think about it ... then they start giving shits.  Try it with something else ... anything else, trivial or not ... something that you and them have been previously oblivious to.  so then, anyway, talk about it in detail with this person ... see if it does not take on more importance. 
Have you tried it out in your wanderings ? What did you find out? Try it out in some man in the street interviews there in Seattle or wherever & get some feedback.

Yep works.  Don't confuse the effect with how loud or far reaching your voice is when you talk and whether people are prone to listen to you or not.  I mean, after all, a tiny drop of rain falling in an ocean does not make a giant wave.  But it should be quite easy to demonstrate even within your own being ... talk to yourself in detail about something oh which you had been  oblivious ... do it quite a number of times ... see if you do not become more aware of that thing.  That really is just focusing, no?  I don't understand why you would think it controversial.  In a way, it is just the simplest example of how awareness works.  No?
Apparently you can't describe one encounter of your own - just platitudes & generalism.

Sure i can ... i have already done it many times... 17240 is a case in point.  But really any item i have made is the same way.   If you want i'll go grab a new totally triveal one and do it right in front of you.   Don't forget, it matters little whether you fight the awareness yourself of not ... it doesn't matter whether you act to try to decompose it ... somtimes opposing a thing just makes it stronger.  In a way that's another property of awareness.

Incidentally you have been doing this too ... er, all along.  Do you think, even i, would be more or less conscious or racism, were that you had not run your mouth in this tag room ?

This thingey that i am saying is so simple and obvious that it is almost like me saying, "water is wet".   The funny part is that you are doubting it. 

Seth says
Einai 2014-05-02 08:07:07 16978
seth 2014-05-02 07:47:38 16978
Einai 2014-05-02 07:15:52 16978
idk, is there something of value at the end of this stream of consciousness?

well this, like all things, is what you make of it ... possibilities abound ... it's about awareness ... being awake ... who knows, might even wake up ... ... but me, i will make no claims about it at all ... certainly not for you ... none whatsoever ... i know not where it goes ... make of it what you will. 
O -
I am already conscious.

so are we all, else this conversation is not happening, the question is the degree.

Seth says
Einai 2014-05-02 08:58:09 16978
seth 2014-05-02 08:47:31 16978
source: mark
Nice question.  I don't need a degree for it.
... funny ... but you know what i mean ... see discussion of the spectrum above (ask if you don't know what i mean) ... or just laugh about it ... no pressure at all ... no compunction whatsoever ... do what you will.  contribute to our awareness ... obstruct it ... be otherness to it ... or not.  isn't freedom in all of its ramifications so very exciting?
Funny thingy is that the notion of degree of consciousness is what Rudolf Steiner & GW taught about, but you seem to want to reinvent & make up a sanitized version of your own - free of any authority except your own.
& BTW - dust off your sense of humor & grok what the symbol was about.



well there is no authority on this stuff ... for me, only choice i have is my own.  Obviously i got the notion of improving consciousness from my upbringing and that certainly includes Rudolph Steiner and GW. 

& BTW did you miss my laugh, ... er "funny " ?   but, honestly, it was kind of a shallow laugh ... a laugh that i thought needed a more complete context. 

Mark de LA says
seth 2014-05-02 08:47:31 16978
source: mark
Nice question.  I don't need a degree for it.
... funny ... but you know what i mean ... see discussion of the spectrum above (ask if you don't know what i mean) ... or just laugh about it ... no pressure at all ... no compunction whatsoever ... do what you will.  contribute to our awareness ... obstruct it ... be otherness to it ... or not.  isn't freedom in all of its ramifications so very exciting?
Funny thingy is that the notion of degree of consciousness is what Rudolf Steiner & GW taught about, but you seem to want to reinvent & make up a sanitized version of your own - free of any authority except your own.
& BTW - dust off your sense of humor & grok what the symbol was about.



Seth says
source: mark
Nice question.  I don't need a degree for it.
... funny ... but you know what i mean ... see discussion of the spectrum above (ask if you don't know what i mean) ... or just laugh about it ... no pressure at all ... no compunction whatsoever ... do what you will.  contribute to our awareness ... obstruct it ... be otherness to it ... or not.  isn't freedom in all of its ramifications so very exciting?

Mark de LA says
seth 2014-05-02 09:30:24 16978
Einai 2014-05-02 08:58:09 16978
seth 2014-05-02 08:47:31 16978
source: mark
Nice question.  I don't need a degree for it.
... funny ... but you know what i mean ... see discussion of the spectrum above (ask if you don't know what i mean) ... or just laugh about it ... no pressure at all ... no compunction whatsoever ... do what you will.  contribute to our awareness ... obstruct it ... be otherness to it ... or not.  isn't freedom in all of its ramifications so very exciting?
Funny thingy is that the notion of degree of consciousness is what Rudolf Steiner & GW taught about, but you seem to want to reinvent & make up a sanitized version of your own - free of any authority except your own.
& BTW - dust off your sense of humor & grok what the symbol was about.



well there is no authority on this stuff ... for me, only choice i have is my own.  Obviously i got the notion of improving consciousness from my upbringing and that certainly includes Rudolph Steiner and GW. 

& BTW did you miss my laugh, ... er "funny " ?   but, honestly, it was kind of a shallow laugh ... a laugh that i thought needed a more complete context. 
Does not the irony of a shallow rwg about humor ever hit you?

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