Examples of Mental Topography


(1) An example of effective communication ... or a meeting of minds ...

Everything in the left Ven Diagram distinction is my experience ... everything on the right is yours ... where those intersect is our common experience. 

In this example a communication has happened between us ... the language of that communication is represented by the tails of the arrows pointing to our respective experiences.  The yellow icons labeling the arrows represent that we both sense that the language matches our particular experience.

Tags

  1. circles
  2. self topography
  3. walled garden
  4. mental topography

Comments


Seth says


the person on the left apprehended something, but did not represent it in words;

the person on the right apprehended something, represented it in language, and felt it was true.
...

Seth says
...

person B apprehends something, tells person A and feels it is true.

person B parses that message and experiences a meaning and does not feel it is true.

Seth says
MeE 2013-12-27 00:08:47 16991
Symbols are still language or function as language just the features are not little letters derived from ancient drawings such s a ox for the letter A.  Yours are more complex or simple? ... & need their own language to interpret. What is the payoff here?


its a map ... use it as you would a map.  in a way it's the old thingey:  if you can name it, if you can identify it, then you have a better hold on it ... that just is part of the process of apprehension.  how would it be if we never named our numbers ... er, just give me the next one ... how would it be if we had no language.   but, hey look, i don't know where this is going or even if will ever be useful to anyone.  i just think that i can represent just about any of the edges of our mental perdicament in thise kind of diagrams.  once represdented you then can look at the diagram and see if it matches and see if you can see things there in the diagram that are also in reality.  it is a way of thinking which sheds light on apprehension that otherwise hazes away into oblivion.

MeE says
seth 2013-12-27 05:35:25 16991
MeE 2013-12-27 00:08:47 16991
Symbols are still language or function as language just the features are not little letters derived from ancient drawings such s a ox for the letter A.  Yours are more complex or simple? ... & need their own language to interpret. What is the payoff here?


its a map ... use it as you would a map.  in a way it's the old thingey:  if you can name it, if you can identify it, then you have a better hold on it ... that just is part of the process of apprehension.  how would it be if we never named our numbers ... er, just give me the next one ... how would it be if we had no language.   but, hey look, i don't know where this is going or even if will ever be useful to anyone.  i just think that i can represent just about any of the edges of our mental perdicament in thise kind of diagrams.  once represdented you then can look at the diagram and see if it matches and see if you can see things there in the diagram that are also in reality.  it is a way of thinking which sheds light on apprehension that otherwise hazes away into oblivion.
... for some value of the word apprehend. I like the old version here of mentographs. Try mapping any SVO sentence with what you got now & see if you can describe the extra language you need to make sense out of your new graph. .. or maybe try to explain what apprehend means.


Seth says
haven't you ever found something too big or wierd to deal with ... yet you wanted to figure out how to deal with it.  like say building a kitchen, or a house, or a tall building, or a flying machine ... and you couldn't start building the actual thing, but you wanted to figure out how to build it.  so what you do is build a model.  you know the model is not the thing ... but still and all, for the sake of figuring out how to deal with the real thing, it works good enough.  it is not the real thing, but it reflects it ... it represents it.  and the better the model, the better it represents all of the features and characteristics of the real thing.  to me that is what meta is all about.  and it is a whole lot about what being human is all about.  and it is a whole lot about what our culture, our society is all about.  me, i cannot disparage, disregard, degrade, or po-po our meta world.  i love it.

MeE says
seth 2013-12-27 07:22:37 16991
haven't you ever found something too big or wierd to deal with ... yet you wanted to figure out how to deal with it.  like say building a kitchen, or a house, or a tall building, or a flying machine ... and you couldn't start building the actual thing, but you wanted to figure out how to build it.  so what you do is build a model.  you know the model is not the thing ... but still and all, for the sake of figuring out how to deal with the real thing, it works good enough.  it is not the real thing, but it reflects it ... it represents it.  and the better the model, the better it represents all of the features and characteristics of the real thing.  to me that is what meta is all about.  and it is a whole lot about what being human is all about.  and it is a whole lot about what our culture, our society is all about.  me, i cannot disparage, disregard, degrade, or po-po our meta world.  i love it.
It soars way into abstraction for little utility. But hey - enjoy.  I am complete with your being in abstraction. I am moving more in the exact opposite direction toward what one calls a direct experience of a thing of itself for itself.



MeE says
Says more, eh?


MeE says
seth 2013-12-29 13:31:03 16991
MeE 2013-12-29 11:13:11 16991
Your mentograph is not suitable for handling so-called direct experiences.  Have one & try it. Or mentograph it & try getting to one from your mentograph.

yep, that is obviously not something that i would be expecting that would happen here

and, incidentally, this mentograph is one of those domain in which i expect you will get almost exactly what you expect to get out of it /.

not all domains are quite so very amenable as is this one ... especially commercially available expresso machines ... but one other domain that comes instantly to mind that is even more amenable is your direct experience.  think about it ... but i expect you will try very hard to not
 

funny shit, eh?
Yeah - I confess that while I am fully complete that you enjoy yourself with this & that you would naturally blame me for not understanding your shit & that's OK as well; I still hope it gets you more than in an infinite loop of your own / ... & I will surely try harder when it becomes clearer & I get a

Seth says
MeE 2013-12-29 11:13:11 16991
Your mentograph is not suitable for handling so-called direct experiences.  Have one & try it. Or mentograph it & try getting to one from your mentograph.

yep, that is obviously not something that i would be expecting that would happen here

and, incidentally, this mentograph is one of those domain in which i expect you will get almost exactly what you expect to get out of it /.

not all domains are quite so very amenable as is this one ... especially commercially available expresso machines ... but one other domain that comes instantly to mind that is even more amenable is your direct experience.  think about it ... but i expect you will try very hard to not
 

funny shit, eh?

Seth says
MeE 2013-12-28 13:24:18 16991
seth 2013-12-28 12:52:46 16991
actually more accurately, if you put an omega in any particular person's experience model, that circle just has ... er, special powers ...

... hmmm ... maybe that would be it's use ... not quite sure how to emote on that one Ω .
Yeah, that would be meta & not do anything except provide a label for those who have no idea what it is to have a label.
I like the null set symbol just as well

well in the model it does more than just label.  it functions more like a legend of a map ... not merely a mere association of sign to object ... a legend specifies how to use the map, eg 1 inch = 10 miles.  in this case specifing it implies that the person's experience has some special properties or powers.  therefore some of the other relations may model differently. 

Seth says
MeE 2013-12-28 17:08:57 16991
Hmm... language is not a map. A map may contain some language.  None of it substitutes for what's so or reality because the Map is NOT the territory!

well there are senses in which language can map what is so in the it represents it and or reflect it. there is also ways where language (or a system of symbols) can model what is so.  this latter is what Mental Topography is ... it is like a formula ... in that a formula models what it describes. in the formula F=m*a if you divide both sides of the equation by 0 the forumla no longer will model the motion of a particle. 

I have never experienced your "direct experience".  All i have is your description above and PR's (and others).  Yet it needs to be included in the model.  The only thing i can think of that matches the descriptions is to include in the pixels of the experience field of a person is to say some of those points are normal experiences which can be objectified and others cannot.  {........... φ φ φ φ φ φ φ } where the "." 's are normal experiences and the φ's are direct experience.  The have the special property that they cannot be pointed to by the normal relational arrow. 

MeE says
Personally if I want to experience the Pacific ocean I will go to the Pacific ocean or head West for a long time until I get there. Don't hand me a map.
There are lots of clues you can follow if you want a direct experience, but don't expect to play a violin if you never touch one or handle the bow & learn - at lest that is my suggestion - your mileage may vary.  Of course you can make up your own sethinstrumentum . Maybe it uses maps & mentographs to play it - I won't hang out too long to expect music out of it though.
I am fully complete being on a separate path. I disparage none.  I may from time to time poke fun at some

nighty night

MeE says
Hmm... language is not a map. A map may contain some language.  None of it substitutes for what's so or reality because the Map is NOT the territory!


Seth says
MeE 2013-12-28 11:26:28 16991
seth 2013-12-28 11:20:01 16991
source: mark above
I am moving more in the exact opposite direction toward what one calls a direct experience of a thing of itself for itself.
... so is not your "direct experiences" not your experiences ??  So then they are represented within the ven diagram above.  Within the mapping system we even have a way to distinguish them from those experiences which are apprehended from meta mixed media because they don't have the characteristic tail.  

How otherwise can you characterize what you call direct experiences?  How do you distinguish them from the rest of your experiences?  What makes them so speical to you?  Why should they not be logically represented within the Ven circles above?  Or, should they not, then how would you enhance the the diagram above to represent them?
PR, from whom I got the coin direct experience from first, said also that it is neither direct nor an experience.  One might describe such as being at one with the subject & object the same.  There is no meta to a direct experience. There is not enough language to presence it or describe it because it (the direct experience) just IS . Anything else just guilds the lilly. Obviously an arrow implies some kind of duality.


... hmm ... well ok, an aspect of the diagram expicitidly implies a subject/object relationship ... the whole circle of experience is the subject and the particular experience pixel is the object ... that is what the relational arrow implies.  So then as you characterice this "direct experience" thingey it cannot be represented by an arrow in the Ven distinction plane. 

we could just put a dot there ... a pixel of experience ... with no subject/object relationship to the whole implied ... but i'm not so very sure that wroks ... the logic of a ven diagram itslef already presumes the subject/object relationship ... er, "A is a B".

i will need to think more about this ... something that that cannot be experienced, yet can be refered to, seems not only not to make any sense whatsoever, but also would be useless.  kind of like dividing both sides of a equation by zero to make it irrelevant.  according to how you describe it, the best way i can think to model it, would be just the symbol omega, put it in any model, and the model just dissapears

Seth says
source: mark asks
... for some value of map & formula you get what that connects you to anything real & how?

... well i don't think you need me to explain the uses of models and maps or to distinguish them from other types of meta reflections.  i am sure you know how to use those tools as well as i do ... whether you chose to or not.

once we have "correctly[?]" put a feature into the model, new questions about the model and what it models appears.   for example ...

one of the obvious assumptions of the model is that every pixel in the plane of experience is some how related to every other one.  and, yes, certainly we are collapsing reality into abstraction ... but trying to tease out at least some salient edges.

we have discovered that, unlike the pixels of normal experience, those of direct experience apparently cannot be pointed to by signs. 

the question i have now is are they related to each other in any way like in my first paragraph above ??

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