Humanity


 
It just dawned on me that "Humanity" is a better name for what i have been calling the "Leviathan".  Humanity is a being that exists ... it is real, not a fiction ... nobody in their right mind can deny it.  It lives at a higher (grander, more glorious) level than any individual human ... if for no other reason then at least by the unassailable logic ... "the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few ... or the one".   And yet, it does not take it’s grandeur away from me an individual ... like for example a grand and powerful government would ... for, there is no sacrifice i make to being human ... none of my freedom is denied to me by this more glorious being ... rather it exhaults in me being me ... in me being human.

Now that Humanity does not present to me yet as a coherent being, is the challenge to my telling its story, or its biography.  Historians, of course, have done this for centuries ... but i am telling of its life ... er, how Humanity feels to live as a person ... like you or i ... yet, of course, at a grander level.   And, of course, for me to write this biography is quite impossible ... for i am not it ... and cannot even interview it ... yet my imagination ... and gall ... knows no limit ... .

This is the actual point of the inquiry here:  How and where do we listen to perceive the inside of Humanity?

A way of getting this gestalt might be to get an answer to the question "Who are We?". 
tag #InsideOutside 

Tags

  1. bozometry
  2. leviathan
  3. humanity
  4. insides
  5. outside
  6. population
  7. self awareness
  8. plastic habits
  9. abstraction
  10. b-zo
  11. InsideOutside

Comments


Seth says
it is interesting to recognize what is inside and what it outside.   my private thoughts and feelings, imaginations and intuitions, i consider inside me.  my effect on others and what i look and sound like to them is my outside.  there is much more outside too that is not me at all ... er, it is other people and the rest of the non human firmament.   there is an interchange or flux between my inside and my outside ... for example this message which was just and inside thought, is now outside me in the cybernetic cloud. 

i said all that merely to point to insides and outsides from the point of view of consciousnesses.  the question i raise then in this context is:  what is the content of the inside of Humanity?  Does it have an outside?  ... and then ... is not the outside of me, part of the inside of Humanity?

MeE says
The nice thing about mind is that I am inside it with all the other shit. This is not so with the physical world where my body is out there with the rest of that shit, but my mind is somewhere else with a different terrain, texture, rules laws etc. (words mostly defined for the outside world).

Humanity is a concept or an abstraction to be found in the inside world of mind. People - lots of them - are to be found in the outside world along with my body & theirs.


Seth says
source: mark above
The nice thing about mind is that I am inside it with all the other shit. This is not so with the physical world where my body is out there with the rest of that shit, but my mind is somewhere else with a different terrain, texture, rules laws etc. (words mostly defined for the outside world).

... yes i can see that ... it is substantially the same with me.

I think, though, the situations are symmetrical ... my I is in here with my mental terrain ... my outside manifestations are out there with the rest of that shit.  but the more i am aware of and identify with my outside manifestations, the more those become my I ... so the  appearance that I am living in here rather than out there is a shifting gestalt ... it changes now and again.  In the case of a celebrity that shifting, i imagine, can be quite dramatic and and/or traumatic.  that is, after all, why we have private or public lives.

Me thinks words (language) is what moves from inside world to outside world when i speak, ... and from the outside world to my inside world when i read. There are no real complete words in the outside world ... just black against white or vibrations in the air ... or the fluctuation of light and dark which makes up pictures ... and forces that impact.  Yes, words come to me from the outside world defining it to me.  sometimes your words come to me from your inside world also defining that to me as well ... hopefully mine work that way to you too. 

Seth says
source: mark
Humanity is a concept or an abstraction to be found in the inside world of mind. People - lots of them - are to be found in the outside world along with my body & theirs.

... yes i can see that .

Yet, as with any sign or term in our language, it signifies something real ... something that actually exists ... and the concept in our mind has this special kind of reflection relationship with the real thing.   When we talk we almost always trying to talk about the real thing ... and not the sign or image or reflection in the inside of our mind.

My challenge here is to tell a story of the inside life of Humanity.  It is not a story about some concept inside of me ... notwithstanding that is all it can ever be .

Seth says
As you might understand i am using the person-to-person relationship, as a model of the person-to-Humanity relationship as much as it possibly can be used that way.  As far as i know there is no deterministic method of determining whether another person even has an inside.  The only way i can do it is by listening carefully to what another person says honestly from their inside while suppressing my own presumptions about them to hear instead any actual signal they are giving.  But i know of no deterministic way of proving what i end up hearing or of even logically concluding that their inside even exists ... nor have i read such a method in the literature of our time.  I think we are in the very same predicament when we try to listen for the inside of Humanity. 

Strangely enough i have never heard of this particular question being asked or this specific topic even being addressed ... except of course to say, like the Turing Test does in the case of person-to-person, that it cannot be deterministically done ... and must be a judgement call by another member of the species.

Seth says
source: from my inside above
what is the content of the inside of Humanity?  Does it have an outside?  ... and then ... is not the outside of me, part of the inside of Humanity?
... it just dawned on me that it would be illogical form me to consider that the inside of Humanity does not also include the inside of me ... not merely my outside.  hmmm .... is there any analogy to that in normal person to person relationships?

MeE says
MeE 2014-01-03 11:39:36 16999
Bad mind reading on your part.  Maybe include in your humanity concept that you can't read anyone else's mind & are limited in reading natural language making assumptions which don't work but crank up the RWG.



Seth says
MeE 2014-01-03 11:18:01 16999
There is not necessarily a correspondence between what's in your mind (or mine) in the way of concepts to anything in the outside world. For example the locus of points equidistant from a single point will not be found anywhere in the outside world because it is a mathematical description of one definition of all circles.
Another example is anything imaginary such as an imaginary character in an imaginary book.

Well that is certainly true ... thought i cannot imagine why you re-assert it in this context, it does not contradict anything that i have said.
source: ... and then ...
Such notwithstanding I conclude my interest here as being outside the domain of what you are trying to do here.

... You actually did not need to say that because, as always, by default i take any lack of response from you as a lack wanting to involve yourself with what i am doing ... and i think you actually know that.  But you did say it ... so i am left to conclude that in this dialogue you are meaning something entirely different than the surface parse of the message. 
... also ... and i'll even throw in some roses .

Seth says
...   A new idea:  me listening for, or speaking with, the voice of the inside of Humanity is certainly a contradiction of the first order.   Yet there is something that i should be able to hear and speak ... my part of that.

In other words if my insides and outsides can create to mosaic (Gestalt) with others to make up a being ... then i should be able to hear my part of it and speak with the voice of my part of it ... er, such that my part honors all you other parts. 

Me doing that is more of an attitude than a mere string of words can ever imply ... but, who knows, you might get a hint of it from reading them anyway  ...


Seth says
MeE 2014-01-09 14:06:00 16999
I hold this to be a meta-mashup of mind & imagination pretending to be real via linguistic confusion. Humanity at the sensory & real level is simply all homo sapiens born to the Earth indistinct as to whether they are still living or not.
Those who communicate leave traces of what went through their minds. Such in sum is the communication deposits of homo sapiens. Some of this communication is deposited in books, digital media & accessible through the Internet. Not all of it has the same validity not even for the person who communicates it & looks back on it.  Such communication probably has a half-life of validity from a few seconds to a month.  The mind content of one person decays even more rapid for anyone else who can access external communication of another because communication of all types is held differently by the external person accessing it than the originator. Fidelity of communication between humans is suspect & probably never exceeds more than 10%.  Verbal language words 7%, tonality 37% & the rest is body language. The content of the mind of one taking a selfie is probably no more profound than "look at me!". Such does not prove any better fidelity, imho. 

... this is my bird droppings of the moment on this subject (both the black & white kind)

Well i claim that Humanity is far more than just the collection of its parts.  Is a picture just its pixels? ... is a symphony just a sequence of notes? ... er, i think not.  Are the interactions and relationships between those parts ... which are not the parts themselves ... to be somehow excluded from Humanity?  No! Humanity is not just like a sack of marbles.

Incidentally, are you only the collection of the parts that comprise you?  If we eliminate half of those, will the remaining half of the parts be a half Mark? 

MeE says
In an empirical world complete with 5 senses, & science that only acknowledges these 5 all there is is various DNA coded life-forms being recycled in & out of the food chain - nothing special.  Those that we know of having minds like homo sapiens appear to form Egos in them to protect themselves & amuse themselves - again nothing special. Meaning is adaptive, like a carrot on a stick, to keep the species going until it doesn't.


MeE says
... or as in Macbeth:
Tomorrow, and tomorrow, and tomorrow,
Creeps in this petty pace from day to day,
To the last syllable of recorded time;
And all our yesterdays have lighted fools
The way to dusty death. Out, out, brief candle!
Life's but a walking shadow, a poor player
That struts and frets his hour upon the stage
And then is heard no more. It is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury
Signifying nothing
.

 — Macbeth (Act 5, Scene 5, lines 17-28)

MeE says
humanity = human population - so what?

Seth says
MeE 2014-01-10 09:04:16 16999
MeE 2014-01-10 09:01:44 16999
So what is imagination & where does it come from?
 Often BØZØ Ø pretends precision in language & meta-mashup that he is not imagining stuff & is dealing with reality.



hmmm ... interesting questions .

Imagination is this faculty we humans have to model privately ... to  experience without having that experience dependent on external signals ... to have experiences which are not limited by the necessity of cause and effect ... yet which can be shared with others through communication and language.  Like the other faculties of our being, eg our ability to grasp with our hands and use tools, our imagination has evolved with us to be this miraculous ability that it is today.   It is hard to imagine what Humanity would be like without this faculty ... hmmm, maybe a pile of maggots .... i don't know ... but certainly not human.

That having been said ... it would obviously be a bold face lie for me to pretend that i do not imagine stuff.  I do craft my language to accurately represent the things that i experience and imagine.  I then test what i say to make sure that it continues to ring true.  For me that has become a kind of meditation.  Am i dealing with reality here?  Well in this case, with this Gestalt of the being of Humanity, it is more a genesis thingy ... a creating of reality ... and/or a discovering of it.  Tangeably that had started out as me telling a story of the Leviathan waking up and then me publishing a book of the story.  You see i have imagined that story since i was a little kid.  Me thinks it is a good story, and one worth telling as precisely and honestly as i possibly can. 

Did that answer your questions?

Seth says
source: mark
it is [all?] your imagination
... well ... er .... hmmm .... Yes ...  .

Humanity without our imagination *is* pretty much the depressing thing that you describe above ... which, incidentally, came right out of your own imagination.  Conceiving  any Gestalt of Humanity as a whole being without using our imagination would be like asking a fish to swim without getting wet. 

That said, perhaps we can move on to considering what part imagination plays here ... and what of the being exists even without it, right now and as things change in the future.  It has been my experience that things start in my imagination and then get manifested such that others can perceive them as well.  But that is not just me.  For example, our nation was once just a notion imagined by the founding fathers.  Even RS's methods for accessing a spiritual world start by first imaging it.  I almost want to say, Thank God, but then that would be a bit presumptuous on my part.

So, you are on to something with your observation about our miraculous imagination ... it certainly is a feature of the Gestalt ... er, the way we do the gestalting .... but it is not a bug in it ... nor a good reason to imagine our own personal worst fears instead. 

MeE says
seth 2014-01-10 10:17:45 16999
MeE 2014-01-10 09:04:16 16999
MeE 2014-01-10 09:01:44 16999
So what is imagination & where does it come from?
 Often BØZØ Ø pretends precision in language & meta-mashup that he is not imagining stuff & is dealing with reality.



hmmm ... interesting questions .

Imagination is this faculty we humans have to model privately ... to  experience without having that experience dependent on external signals ... to have experiences which are not limited by the necessity of cause and effect ... yet which can be shared with others through communication and language.  Like the other faculties of our being, eg our ability to grasp with our hands and use tools, our imagination has evolved with us to be this miraculous ability that it is today.   It is hard to imagine what Humanity would be like without this faculty ... hmmm, maybe a pile of maggots .... i don't know ... but certainly not human.

That having been said ... it would obviously be a bold face lie for me to pretend that i do not imagine stuff.  I do craft my language to accurately represent the things that i experience and imagine.  I then test what i say to make sure that it continues to ring true.  For me that has become a kind of meditation.  Am i dealing with reality here?  Well in this case, with this Gestalt of the being of Humanity, it is more a genesis thingy ... a creating of reality ... and/or a discovering of it.  Tangeably that had started out as me telling a story of the Leviathan waking up and then me publishing a book of the story.  You see i have imagined that story since i was a little kid.  Me thinks it is a good story, and one worth telling as precisely and honestly as i possibly can. 

Did that answer your questions?
Pretty close except "it evolved" is much like saying that the ability to shape a turd in a pleasing morphology evolved & nowadays it does not resemble a rabbit pellet. It did help me clarify the question in two ways:
  • Where does imagination itself come from when you & I are actually using that faculty?
  • As you describe it, what value is it to discover reality - whatever the heck that it?


Seth says
MeE 2014-01-09 19:36:38 16999
seth 2014-01-09 17:22:23 16999
MeE 2014-01-09 14:06:00 16999
I hold this to be a meta-mashup of mind & imagination pretending to be real via linguistic confusion. Humanity at the sensory & real level is simply all homo sapiens born to the Earth indistinct as to whether they are still living or not.
Those who communicate leave traces of what went through their minds. Such in sum is the communication deposits of homo sapiens. Some of this communication is deposited in books, digital media & accessible through the Internet. Not all of it has the same validity not even for the person who communicates it & looks back on it.  Such communication probably has a half-life of validity from a few seconds to a month.  The mind content of one person decays even more rapid for anyone else who can access external communication of another because communication of all types is held differently by the external person accessing it than the originator. Fidelity of communication between humans is suspect & probably never exceeds more than 10%.  Verbal language words 7%, tonality 37% & the rest is body language. The content of the mind of one taking a selfie is probably no more profound than "look at me!". Such does not prove any better fidelity, imho. 

... this is my bird droppings of the moment on this subject (both the black & white kind)

Well i claim that Humanity is far more than just the collection of its parts.  Is a picture just its pixels? ... is a symphony just a sequence of notes? ... er, i think not.  Are the interactions and relationships between those parts ... which are not the parts themselves ... to be somehow excluded from Humanity?  No! Humanity is not just like a sack of marbles.

Incidentally, are you only the collection of the parts that comprise you?  If we eliminate half of those, will the remaining half of the parts be a half Mark? 
If you were to acknowledge a spiritual world it might be different. Otherwise it is all your imagination.


Well as spiritual experience is just part of human experience, there is nothing that i have recognized (described or distinguished, proscribed or specified) so far here that would deny such ... nor do i expect such a denial will ever be necessary.   But i think you must be invoking an assumption that this Humanity Gestalt is exclusively of the domain that you call "the spiritual world" and can be accessed (gestalted , felt, or directly known) only with methods of that world.  Well we try to make no such assumptions here .... because who knows, were it is, were it is not, or were it make a difference at all, or even what methods will need to be discovered? ... certainly not me.  So i will keep looking ... and refining my expectations  and their perceptions till the thingy itself emerges ... or as you perhaps presume ... does not ...


MeE says
  - new thoughts, ideas, & principles come from ?
  - maybe we are all pre-determined via DNA & all the past that has flushed it way behind us, eh?



MeE says
Funny thingy, when I was ~ 6 or ? one of my earliest memories of the question of how to gain access to the spiritual world - such being the conversation sometimes around our house when it was not about the war & the atomic bomb - resolved itself to probably through the mind. Later now, after many years of study I realize it is not that simple - many paths & ways lead to the same. Some of them are the study of nature & silence - stilling the mind without content or other device.


Seth says
source: mark asks me
  • Where does imagination itself come from when you & I are actually using that faculty?
  • As you describe it, what value is it to discover reality - whatever the heck that it?
  • new thoughts, ideas, & principles come from ?
  • maybe we are all pre-determined via DNA & all the past that has flushed it way behind us, eh?

- in the context of the study of nature & silence - stilling the mind without content or other device

... it is interesting to note that a machine operates only for a purpose fixed in the past.  as such it does not "discover reality", it has no need of that ... for its value has already been pre-determined.  we humans, however, do discover reality ... are sensitive to it ... adapt to it ... change and create it into the future.  That is our intent.  Nature, however, is silent there ... we cannot hear its intent ... well, at least i can't.  I suppose if i shut up, perahps i could hear more what nature is saying ... that is a great idea indeed!

I think my new thought come from new possibilities that i recognize ... old thoughts, however, are habits (machines) pre-determined in the past.  I think Humanity is a strange peculiar being, perhaps unique in all of nature, who sites after the past and intends the future.  I am amazed by this predicament  and i love it ... Don't you?

Did i answer these questions to your satisfaction ?

MeE says
seth 2014-01-12 08:50:47 16999
MeE 2014-01-11 16:48:26 16999
seth 2014-01-11 16:09:54 16999
MeE 2014-01-11 07:51:34 16999
seth 2014-01-11 07:41:30 16999
source: mark asks me
  • Where does imagination itself come from when you & I are actually using that faculty?
  • As you describe it, what value is it to discover reality - whatever the heck that it?
  • new thoughts, ideas, & principles come from ?
  • maybe we are all pre-determined via DNA & all the past that has flushed it way behind us, eh?

- in the context of the study of nature & silence - stilling the mind without content or other device

... it is interesting to note that a machine operates only for a purpose fixed in the past.  as such it does not "discover reality", it has no need of that ... for its value has already been pre-determined.  we humans, however, do discover reality ... are sensitive to it ... adapt to it ... change and create it into the future.  That is our intent.  Nature, however, is silent there ... we cannot hear its intent ... well, at least i can't.  I suppose if i shut up, perahps i could hear more what nature is saying ... that is a great idea indeed!

I think my new thought come from new possibilities that i recognize ... old thoughts, however, are habits (machines) pre-determined in the past.  I think Humanity is a strange peculiar being, perhaps unique in all of nature, who sites after the past and intends the future.  I am amazed by this predicament  and i love it ... Don't you?

Did i answer these questions to your satisfaction ?
Not really. You are talking "about" it from predetermined past assumptions. I no longer find it worthwhile to spend time debugging statements line by line.  The sentiments you express are sometimes shared by both of us.


well i don't know how to talk in language and it not be about it from predetermined assumptions ... nor have i ever hard anyone else do that.   are you expecting something impossible??
Some people can express themselves so that you know they went through the experience they are talking about.  Others just talk about it as if they are either making shit up or they are repeating dogma or baggage from past rationalizing sessions with themselves. I get the impression you are more rationalizing some self-invented dogma than actually describing experience.  Not to worry! I could be wrong about your sourcing ideas, thoughts & imaginations. I could never know how you are arriving at such. Unless it's not actual experience it just sounds that way.  Which would be okay too, okay?


hmmmm .... i thought that you would not have needed my personal experience to recognize that   "a machine operates only for a purpose fixed in the past.  as such it does not "discover reality", it has no need of that ... for its value has already been pre-determined.  we humans, however, do discover reality ... are sensitive to it ... adapt to it ... change and create it into the future.  That is our intent. " is true.  But if you doubt it, i can provide plenty personal experiences as examples, for those are things that i have personally experienced.

Look, i know you are into experiences outside of their collapse into language.  So am i.  I actually am trying to experience some manner of Humanity as a whole ... and not just a rationalized description of it ... obviously i haven't done that yet ... i hope you will be able to tell the difference in my descriptions, if i ever do ...
....

But to be completely honest with you there is a thing happening here just in my writing and reading of this language experience.  To me, it is even a bit surprising ... i had not anticipated it in advance.  This particular response is a case in point.  I have pondered long and hard how to respond to yours above ... and while i knew nature of the edges of this response ... it did not happen untill i wrote it.  it is like the writing solidified the response ... like the truth of it was worked out in the words themselves.  Now i will read it back, perhaps edit it, to see if it continues to ring true ...
a machine operates only for a purpose fixed in the past - does not compute in my world
  • machines are not conscious of their purpose
  • the designers may be conscious of the purpose & maybe not
  • the parts of nuclear bombs are manufactured all over the country so as not to reveal what they are
  • purpose is not limited to the past
  • only?
  • being is not limited to the past & neither is purpose
  • some machines are repurposed by others including politicians
  • rest of discussion is self-conscious writing

Seth says
MeE 2014-01-11 16:48:26 16999
seth 2014-01-11 16:09:54 16999
MeE 2014-01-11 07:51:34 16999
seth 2014-01-11 07:41:30 16999
source: mark asks me
  • Where does imagination itself come from when you & I are actually using that faculty?
  • As you describe it, what value is it to discover reality - whatever the heck that it?
  • new thoughts, ideas, & principles come from ?
  • maybe we are all pre-determined via DNA & all the past that has flushed it way behind us, eh?

- in the context of the study of nature & silence - stilling the mind without content or other device

... it is interesting to note that a machine operates only for a purpose fixed in the past.  as such it does not "discover reality", it has no need of that ... for its value has already been pre-determined.  we humans, however, do discover reality ... are sensitive to it ... adapt to it ... change and create it into the future.  That is our intent.  Nature, however, is silent there ... we cannot hear its intent ... well, at least i can't.  I suppose if i shut up, perahps i could hear more what nature is saying ... that is a great idea indeed!

I think my new thought come from new possibilities that i recognize ... old thoughts, however, are habits (machines) pre-determined in the past.  I think Humanity is a strange peculiar being, perhaps unique in all of nature, who sites after the past and intends the future.  I am amazed by this predicament  and i love it ... Don't you?

Did i answer these questions to your satisfaction ?
Not really. You are talking "about" it from predetermined past assumptions. I no longer find it worthwhile to spend time debugging statements line by line.  The sentiments you express are sometimes shared by both of us.


well i don't know how to talk in language and it not be about it from predetermined assumptions ... nor have i ever hard anyone else do that.   are you expecting something impossible??
Some people can express themselves so that you know they went through the experience they are talking about.  Others just talk about it as if they are either making shit up or they are repeating dogma or baggage from past rationalizing sessions with themselves. I get the impression you are more rationalizing some self-invented dogma than actually describing experience.  Not to worry! I could be wrong about your sourcing ideas, thoughts & imaginations. I could never know how you are arriving at such. Unless it's not actual experience it just sounds that way.  Which would be okay too, okay?


hmmmm .... i thought that you would not have needed my personal experience to recognize that   "a machine operates only for a purpose fixed in the past.  as such it does not "discover reality", it has no need of that ... for its value has already been pre-determined.  we humans, however, do discover reality ... are sensitive to it ... adapt to it ... change and create it into the future.  That is our intent. " is true.  But if you doubt it, i can provide plenty personal experiences as examples, for those are things that i have personally experienced.

Look, i know you are into experiences outside of their collapse into language.  So am i.  I actually am trying to experience some manner of Humanity as a whole ... and not just a rationalized description of it ... obviously i haven't done that yet ... i hope you will be able to tell the difference in my descriptions, if i ever do ...
....

But to be completely honest with you there is a thing happening here just in my writing and reading of this language experience.  To me, it is even a bit surprising ... i had not anticipated it in advance.  This particular response is a case in point.  I have pondered long and hard how to respond to yours above ... and while i knew nature of the edges of this response ... it did not happen untill i wrote it.  it is like the writing solidified the response ... like the truth of it was worked out in the words themselves.  Now i will read it back, perhaps edit it, to see if it continues to ring true ...

Seth says
source: mark
  • rest of discussion is self-conscious writing
... well yes, of course ... not that there is anything wrong with that

if you think about it, Gestalting Humanity is being self-conscious ... just like knowing who you are is being self-conscious.  it is the nature of this beast.   and i make no bones about it.

Self consciousness is a good and a bad thing ... it sure can become a real nuance ... especially when i am trying to hear someone else ... and is can be quite disgusing when others see me doing it.  but, mark really, it is one of the things i do ... and to be honest with you ... at times i perform it well on the bandstand ... your own reactions to it notwithstanding. 

Seth says
MeE 2014-01-13 09:33:07 16999
Better ideas on humanity with Truth, Beauty & Goodness as the impulses can be found here:
source: ... A good man is one who can bear his own soul over into the soul of another. Upon this all true morality depends, and without morality no true social order among earthly humanity can be maintained.
... Rudolf  Steiner

indeed !

Seth says
source: mark
a machine operates only for a purpose fixed in the past - does not compute in my world
  • machines are not conscious of their purpose
  • the designers may be conscious of the purpose & maybe not
  • the parts of nuclear bombs are manufactured all over the country so as not to reveal what they are
  • purpose is not limited to the past
  • only?
  • being is not limited to the past & neither is purpose
  • some machines are repurposed by others including politicians
  • [elsewhere]

... it might be easier to think the thought if you think the paragraph as a whole ... it's about recognizing one of the most important difference between machines (and even materialism) in our society and ourselves.  think about that.  machines, and even our own habits, stand in stark contrast to our human ability to intend.  intending is what we do.   operating on a fixed purpose is what they do.  but we need habits and machines fixed from the past for structure and continuity, and even survival.  so this is about attitude ... how we feel toward our machines, materialism, and habits .... and how we contrast that to how we fell about our intent ... er, our freedom.  it should be obvious that this is another re-recognition of plastic habits as the solution ... mostly in response to your words (see above) which provoked it .

Seth says
There is a simple test to determine if The Gestalt of Humanity is about its population.  Think about it.  if i increase the population of Humanity, do i then increase Humanity?  No, experiencing the gestalt has nothing to do with the population. 

MeE says
MeE 2014-01-14 10:20:27 16999
MeE 2014-01-14 10:18:40 16999
seth 2014-01-14 09:59:34 16999
There is a simple test to determine if The Gestalt of Humanity is about its population.  Think about it.  if i increase the population of Humanity, do i then increase Humanity?  No, experiencing the gestalt has nothing to do with the population. 
  • Assuming your own premise (that they are different) doesn't make it smell any better.
  • Conversely reverse your test & decrease the population to zero - whoosh!!! no humanity
  • Nobody even around to give a shit about your being right either!
  • for some value of whatever you call a gestalt



Seth says
MeE 2014-01-14 15:04:55 16999
Maybe master the distinction ABSTRACTION first before proceeding.


Well the gestalt itself is intentionally not an abstraction.  Though to get at it, i think we need to master the art of working with abstractions.  After all the human faculty of abstraction is how we recognize beyond just unique particulars ... and this thingey might be in that direction ... no?

I think there is actually an analogous thing with which you in particular are intimately concerned ... and that thing is very definitely not an abstraction.  It is that which you experience as an answer to "Who am I?".  I am sure you don't intend that to be a mere abstraction.

Now i am not saying that is the same thing ... i am just saying that it is analogous to the answer to "Who are We?".  And, no, i certainly do not intend that to be a mere abstraction.

MeE says
  • Yep, missed the link to ABSTRACTION in the Wikipedia.
  • Then assert the opposite.
  • That's exactly what BØZØ Ø is an equation of.
  • Die Gestalt is a German word for form or shape. It is used in English to refer to a concept of 'wholeness'.
  • PS ... a concept of something abstract is more abstraction
  • Needs instantiation
  • Which mostly points back to the homo sapien population & what we do - history, eh?
  • You may have an interesting theory or idea but pretentious of reality 
  • Why not state you primary theory instead?

MeE says

MeE says
seth 2014-01-15 07:38:16 16999
MeE 2014-01-15 07:03:20 16999
  • Yep, missed the link to ABSTRACTION in the Wikipedia.
  • Then assert the opposite.
  • That's exactly what BØZØ Ø is an equation of.
  • Die Gestalt is a German word for form or shape. It is used in English to refer to a concept of 'wholeness'.
  • PS ... a concept of something abstract is more abstraction
  • Needs instantiation
  • Which mostly points back to the homo sapien population & what we do - history, eh?
  • You may have an interesting theory or idea but pretentious of reality 
  • Why not state you primary theory instead?

I think a Gestalt is a reflection in our being of a wholeness.  It can also carry an etheric and/or astral component into our souls ... translate that into sometimes we can feel it.  As such i don't think it is accurate to call it a mere "abstraction".   Though, perhaps what i refer to as a "gestalt" and what you refer to as a "gestalt" are quite different things.  That was why i gave you an analogy so you would know what i am talking about.  That analogy should provide the "instantiation" that you so rightly require.   

Yes certainly Human History will inform our gestalt. 

Actually, no, i do not have any theory here ... i have not experienced the gestalt.  Its like i can see the pixels but not the picture.
Funny boy, i actually read the whole ABSTRACTION page in Wikipedia and for the life of me i do not comprehend anything i wrote as asserting the opposite.  Could you, perhaps explain that?  ... and no i don't get anything from you equation as i told you before ... if you want to actually communicate you will need to be quite a bit more articulate as to what it means to you.  All of that, of course, is just my reflection of your rwg ... and to be honest with you not worth the bits distracting us from the the task.  I probably should just ignore even this rwg provocation like i usually try to do ... we will see if i let it stand after i read the rest of what might be interesting in your response.

  • Yellow on yellow is shit since I can't read  it on a yellow background.
  • I am not interested in bandying mega-meta-munge-mashups anymore on this in the abstract.
  • BØZØ Ø lives!
  • I bullet things nowadays - apparently it gives you a clue as to what you missed by what you respond to with your own RWG
  • Your Humanity may just be RWG

Seth says
MeE 2014-01-15 07:03:20 16999
  • Yep, missed the link to ABSTRACTION in the Wikipedia.
  • Then assert the opposite.
  • That's exactly what BØZØ Ø is an equation of.
  • Die Gestalt is a German word for form or shape. It is used in English to refer to a concept of 'wholeness'.
  • PS ... a concept of something abstract is more abstraction
  • Needs instantiation
  • Which mostly points back to the homo sapien population & what we do - history, eh?
  • You may have an interesting theory or idea but pretentious of reality 
  • Why not state you primary theory instead?

I think a Gestalt is a reflection in our being of a wholeness.  It can also carry an etheric and/or astral component into our souls ... translate that into sometimes we can feel it.  As such i don't think it is accurate to call it a mere "abstraction".   Though, perhaps what i refer to as a "gestalt" and what you refer to as a "gestalt" are quite different things.  That was why i gave you an analogy so you would know what i am talking about.  That analogy should provide the "instantiation" that you so rightly require.   

Yes certainly Human History will inform our gestalt. 

Actually, no, i do not have any theory here ... i have not experienced the gestalt.  Its like i can see the pixels but not the picture.
Funny boy, i actually read the whole ABSTRACTION page in Wikipedia and for the life of me i do not comprehend anything i wrote as asserting the opposite.  Could you, perhaps explain that?  ... and no i don't get anything from you equation as i told you before ... if you want to actually communicate you will need to be quite a bit more articulate as to what it means to you.  All of that, of course, is just my reflection of your rwg ... and to be honest with you not worth the bits distracting us from the the task.  I probably should just ignore even this rwg provocation like i usually try to do ... we will see if i let it stand after i read the rest of what might be interesting in your response.


MeE says
  • The Majesty, Magnificence, & Mirror of the Cosmos of mankind is most likely more interesting to me than M^^4 (mega, meta, munge, mashup)
  • As well as the ugliness & depravity -
  • Maybe Humanity will write your book for you
  • Butt Hay!
  • RS considers such things as the Spirit of a race, people, nation, religion as Beings -
  • Didn't think you wanted to go that way
  • & of course GW expressed some similar things here
  • & went well beyond to how one might experience it
  • some things ibid might agree with you, Bozo
  • some not

Seth says
source: mark
The Majesty, Magnificence, & Mirror of the Cosmos of mankind is most likely more interesting to me than M^^4 (mega, meta, munge, mashup)
... definitely!  Incidentally the reflection "of the Cosmos of mankind" is what i am looking for ... that would be experienced as the answer to "Who are We?".   Great terminology!  Thanks!

That other stuff ,  well i have no idea what that is ... it did not come from my words ... maybe it is just confusion, eh?

i'll get to the rest of your contribution quite a bit later ... i do have some commercial work to do.

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