Golden Rule meets the RWG - WhatIF?

  • Obviously if the RWG gets the upper hand then one gets to make someone  wrong for NOT following the GR & visa versa - the You First phenomena.
  • BUT, whatif I consult the GR first & the appropriate heart, solar plexus, chakras ?
  • I don't like feeling wrong!
  • A lot of people running around feeling wrong does not make a positive Universe
  • Possibilities for positive outcomes decrease with the time spent defending the RWG
  • The RWG rarely, if ever, decreases the amount of wrongness in the Universe but positiveness can
  • With the RWG one may be confronted by the possibility that one is onself wrong
  • I don't like being surrounded by people who are negative
  • The GR & the 3rd bullet above is the best clue
  • FYI, the RWG is short for the right-wrong game - one of the games people play which is a compulsion about being 1-up in rightness or another's wrongness
  • WhatIf one discovers oneself as a perpetrator in the meeting ?
  • newAssuming LOA – If one assumes such & offers insults, drawn out rwg, mindreading, & sleeve-jobs of discomfort at the end of a pile of words will one get the same back? Even NLP (another 3-letter word)  says matching & mirroring is a powerful communication tool – I tried it in a Bandler class in Chicago many years ago & my subject was very surprised that I got what he was thinking! 

Unrelated

but

a

good

meme

anyway

(*)

 

Tags

  1. golden rule
  2. rwg
  3. item 17026
  4. nlp
  5. loa

Comments


Mark de LA says
  • Thanks for the pedagogy on We.
  • You do not speak for all humans - just one.
  • You do not speak for all the set of people in the abstract, editorial collective WE variable. 
  • Not all humans in the WE pile agree on anything.
  • You do not speak for ME half the time, even
  • Do you even speak for yourself or are you speaking for just your point of view? political party? race, gender, history ....
  • M^^4 is my coin for mega-meta-munge-mashup - which is like complex word salad dancing around in the world of abstraction
  • GW called that chaos not yet become cosmos in Barbara Cubed - pg. 6
  • "But soar as high as we may into the realm of the abstract, yet at least some symbol must be present in the mind, else we are not reasoning at all, but merely muddling in chaos not yet become cosmos."
  • In politics - a collective WE of sorts will listen - mesmerized - until they hear the right wrong game makes them right or they are going to get something ...
  • or just the converse they may tune out
  • I suspect & think that you are mostly dancing around trying to avoid what RS would call the Spirit of a Nation or some higher level Being
  • too bad some clairvoyance is needed for that - not likely to encounter much on the physical plane on that one


Mark de LA says
seth 2014-01-16 10:37:45 17026
yeah i tend to agree.  i think the golden rule is best used to inform me how to act to others ... not a rule about how others should act to me.   i think the rwg is just a bad habit which i try to avoid ... when others do it to me, i try to avoid it too.  so there is a kind of symmetry here between me and others relative to the two rules ... apply to myself, ignore in others.   i think i totally see your point ... the GR says, don't make others feel wrong. 
  • Maybe
  • RWG is also about being right

Mark de LA says
Someone on one of the science/national geographic channels covered brain testing & demonstrated that the brain has activities in certain cells which allow a human to project sympathy or empathy. They showed a fake hand being surprised by a hammer in one of them.


Mark de LA says
seth 2014-01-16 12:48:02 17026
thing is relative to what you, strangely describe as M^^4, when we act in the whole of mankind ... or even just as a team, don't we have to take a different attitude towards what is inside us and  what is outside us.  especially where it comes to judgement and empathy and feeling wrong and feeling right ... or making wrong or making right ... does that not change when playing as a team.   what was totally outside, now suddenly becomes felt as inside.  must not a Golden Rule and our attitude towards being right and wrong be adapted to this new predicament?
  • M^^4 depends upon what you call WE
  • .. turd in the back pocket stuff
  • I have always touted the GR as an individual thingy
  • Nice like Rodney King but individuality trumps the WE
  • Depends if you can tell what is inside & outside - imagination & reality
  • Politics is a prime example of personal agenda trumping the good of all under the WE flag
  • Empathy notwithstanding, I am sure you could tell the difference between having your own hand chopped off and watching another have his done so
  • evolution may take the human race to the extremes of empathy
  • evolution also leaves behind some parts of the tree of life as the tree continues to grow
  • see also Truth, Beauty & Goodness

Mark de LA says
seth 2014-01-16 11:18:46 17026
MeE 2014-01-16 11:03:41 17026
seth 2014-01-16 10:58:59 17026
hmmm .... that said ... consider common shared action ?   that after all does bear on my project of gestalting mankind as a whole being.  within the gestalt the inside and outsides get ... how shall i put it ... altered.  if the team is zigging and a member is zagging ... they must be informed somehow... no?   something to think about, eh?

i think it must be said that informing others about their behavior should not always be avoided just to avoid rwg. 
  • There is the biblical imperative - judge not lest ye be judged
  • Similar to the Golden Rule
  • More a cosmic law but also a cosmic joke (can't avoid it)
  • Is your ziz-zagging part of M^^4 ?

yeah i get that too ... was going to mention it ... the GW+AvoidRWG pretty much implies "Don't judge others".  But i don't see any cosmic joke here ... that all harmonizes for me ... i can avoid just about anything, though its not always easy.  Can you tell me more about this cosmic joke?
  • similar to a pick-pocket with a pocketful of money wondering if there are any pickpockets in the crowd
  • or a child molester in jail wondering when he will get killed
  • etc.


Mark de LA says
MeE 2014-01-17 08:02:31 17026
  • Pragmatics notwithstanding
  • It is fascinating to contemplate in Silence & watch the chaos not yet become Cosmos & let it go without clothing it in language or making symbols & pictures of it
  • As far as I can tell such is mostly personal - but who knows? I can't clothe it in anything & stay silent.
  • catch-22


Seth says
MeE 2014-01-16 13:15:43 17026
seth 2014-01-16 12:48:02 17026
thing is relative to what you, strangely describe as M^^4, when we act in the whole of mankind ... or even just as a team, don't we have to take a different attitude towards what is inside us and  what is outside us. 
  • M^^4 depends upon what you call WE
  • .. turd in the back pocket stuff
Well fact is i don't know what you refer to when you use your new word "M^^4".  Yet you should always know exactly what i refer to when i use the word "we".  "we" is the first person plural pronoun ... it is how a group of people refer to themselves.  That kind of reference has been used in many of the great true sentences of our times, like this one:
We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.
If you use words like "M^^4", it means that i can only try to interpret the dialogue meaning of your sentence.  Kind of like me saying to my wife, "you are a very chiggy girl", she knows what i mean, but not because she knows to what my word "chiggy" refers. 

In fact, "we" so accurately refers to a group of people talking about themselves, that if you do not feel yourself a member of that group you will even be able to get that from the sentence ... and perhaps respond with a joke about it, as you have done.

So when i tell you it is my intention to recognize "Who we are" then you should know what i am referring to ... especially when i tell you that it is the same kind of thing as recognizing "Who I am".  And when i talk about what "we feel inside", you should know what i am saying just as much as if i told you "i feel great inside because i just ate my breakfast".  The indexical nature of these sentences is unimportant to their meaning ... and both the author and the audience should know that.

Mark de LA says
MeE 2014-01-17 09:24:55 17026
MeE 2014-01-17 09:18:52 17026
  • word salad or tag cloud ?
  • a tag cloud that just maps back into itself or another tag cloud ?
  • walled garden!
  • maybe tumblr is Seth's model of humanity - maybe not
  • if not what's missing?
  • I say being
  • what say you?
  • can't clothe being ?
  • can one clothe being in anything like action/behavior at some level like conceiving a thought?


Mark de LA says
seth 2014-01-18 07:17:53 17026
MeE 2014-01-17 07:58:52 17026
  • M^^4 is my coin for mega-meta-munge-mashup - which is like complex word salad dancing around in the world of abstraction
  • GW called that chaos not yet become cosmos in Barbara Cubed - pg. 6
  • "But soar as high as we may into the realm of the abstract, yet at least some symbol must be present in the mind, else we are not reasoning at all, but merely muddling in chaos not yet become cosmos."

ok i think i know what you refer to when you use the word "abstract" ... also even "M^^4" ("mega-meta-mung-mashup").

For me the meta-world is a reflection of my experience and what is out there beyond me.  Abstraction is where particular reflections get generalized.  They are still reflections but sort of reflections of reflections.  They are very useful to model and predict experience.  But certainly it is an error to confuse any kind of reflection with what is being reflected.  That is burned in our minds as "Don't confuse the map with the territory" ... and rightly so, me thinks.  Now do i speak truly for you as well in this regard?  Are we in sync with this?

"Mega", i assume, refers to the vastness of humanity and to the even vaster cosmos compared to my minuscule self.  I feel myself in relationship to the vastnesses quite differently from time to time.  Composing those feelings is quite an art that i love.  I expect that you do a lot of that too, though perhaps for you those feelings are constant or even ruled completely out ... i don't know ... and i'm not asking, lol.  One feeling that comes up a lot is submission ... acceptance ... almost in the sense of islam.   But another is feeling the whole, as were I it, yet not excluding any of you all  ... a Christ in me ... or me in Christ ... of being part of a wonderful thing, yet very personal to me ... notwithstanding the vastness.  It is a hard to describe apart from the baggage of the ages.  it is a sort of listening to vast diversity without usurping, yet doing as if the whole of it flowed through me.  that is an off the cuff rendition, so don't take it seriously ... and i totally know i haven't gotten it right yet.  so this project, said differntly, is just me listening as if i were all of us, just like i am inside myself.  it's a game i'v played privately since i was a kid.  i am just thinking of playing it publically now in the sense of writing fiction.

A fiction exists in the so called "meta-world" ... it is a synthesized reflection ... or an imagination ... in that it originally has no being as object to start with.  The being that our fiction is made to reflect exists perhaps in the future ... or perhaps nowhere at all.  Frequently we hope it starts a life of its own  apart from ourselves.   That is the nature of this beast ... and there are many quite beautiful and/or terrible beasts of this gender.  Fear or love or hate them just as you please. 

[i'll perhaps get to your, more interesting spirit stuff, when i return from my commercial duties quite a bit later]
  • I don't get the reflective property of abstraction in your world
  • a rendering is a better word than rendition imho
  • when you go abstract you are using analysis which takes something apart
  • & also inventing or imagining with concepts etc .
  • such rapidly leaves the world of reality
  • not to worry - it is possibly available to talk about your specific experience precisely without hiding it behind abstraction

Tina found a better picture which summarizes the title of this item:


Seth says
MeE 2014-01-17 07:58:52 17026
  • M^^4 is my coin for mega-meta-munge-mashup - which is like complex word salad dancing around in the world of abstraction
  • GW called that chaos not yet become cosmos in Barbara Cubed - pg. 6
  • "But soar as high as we may into the realm of the abstract, yet at least some symbol must be present in the mind, else we are not reasoning at all, but merely muddling in chaos not yet become cosmos."

ok i think i know what you refer to when you use the word "abstract" ... also even "M^^4" ("mega-meta-mung-mashup").

For me the meta-world is a reflection of my experience and what is out there beyond me.  Abstraction is where particular reflections get generalized.  They are still reflections but sort of reflections of reflections.  They are very useful to model and predict experience.  But certainly it is an error to confuse any kind of reflection with what is being reflected.  That is burned in our minds as "Don't confuse the map with the territory" ... and rightly so, me thinks.  Now do i speak truly for you as well in this regard?  Are we in sync with this?

"Mega", i assume, refers to the vastness of humanity and to the even vaster cosmos compared to my minuscule self.  I feel myself in relationship to the vastnesses quite differently from time to time.  Composing those feelings is quite an art that i love.  I expect that you do a lot of that too, though perhaps for you those feelings are constant or even ruled completely out ... i don't know ... and i'm not asking, lol.  One feeling that comes up a lot is submission ... acceptance ... almost in the sense of islam.   But another is feeling the whole, as were I it, yet not excluding any of you all  ... a Christ in me ... or me in Christ ... of being part of a wonderful thing, yet very personal to me ... notwithstanding the vastness.  It is a hard to describe apart from the baggage of the ages.  it is a sort of listening to vast diversity without usurping, yet doing as if the whole of it flowed through me.  that is an off the cuff rendition, so don't take it seriously ... and i totally know i haven't gotten it right yet.  so this project, said differntly, is just me listening as if i were all of us, just like i am inside myself.  it's a game i'v played privately since i was a kid.  i am just thinking of playing it publically now in the sense of writing fiction.

A fiction exists in the so called "meta-world" ... it is a synthesized reflection ... or an imagination ... in that it originally has no being as object to start with.  The being that our fiction is made to reflect exists perhaps in the future ... or perhaps nowhere at all.  Frequently we hope it starts a life of its own  apart from ourselves.   That is the nature of this beast ... and there are many quite beautiful and/or terrible beasts of this gender.  Fear or love or hate them just as you please. 

[i'll perhaps get to your, more interesting spirit stuff, when i return from my commercial duties quite a bit later]

Mark de LA says
seth 2014-01-18 05:25:55 17026
MeE 2014-01-17 07:58:52 17026
  • Thanks for the pedagogy on We.
  • You do not speak for all humans - just one.
  • You do not speak for all the set of people in the abstract, editorial collective WE variable. 
  • Not all humans in the WE pile agree on anything.
  • You do not speak for ME half the time, even
  • Do you even speak for yourself or are you speaking for just your point of view? political party? race, gender, history ....
  • In politics - a collective WE of sorts will listen - mesmerized - until they hear the right wrong game makes them right or they are going to get something ...
  • or just the converse they may tune out


lots of good stuff to think about in your last comments .  i'll try to organize my thoughts about it specifically.

remember when i was referring to it as the Leviathan, and then later as humanity.  well i discovered in writing that simply saying "we" provides the very best reference possible to what i am talking about ... so i started using that word in the context of my project.  i even expect that when i say "we" in some specific context my audience will know quite specifically what i am talking about.  that was why i went into so much detail hoping that my meanings would not get misunderstood to be something that they were not. 

so now we can talk about us in more detail.  you bring up that nobody talks for you.  and that is certainly true.  that applies to me too, and all of us for that matter.  even when a spokesman emerges, perhaps by consensus of the group, when he speaks for the group, members can still dissent.  that is the nature of our individual lives even as those lives generate the whole of this living thing that i refer to as "we"

i trust, ... er, hope ...., that when i talk in this style you will still be able to see through my words to my meanings even though you may not want to talk in this style yourself.  ok?
I will assume then that:
  • editing a post & responding to the bullets you choose is also your style - makes the nesting difficult & redundant
  • precision in English or language is also not your style if the distinction between I & WE is munged (see M^^4)
  • your bolded stuff in the context of your paragraph still pretends that you speak for others who are not you -OR-
  • when you classify people & behaviors & even perhaps being you choose or lose the fact that it is you who is doing so - a small detail left out of the equation of temporary truth?
  • the editorial WE portends just that - an editorial follows & perhaps nosism
  • I am more interested in what your wallaby & distinctions are than editorials & preaching about WE

Mark de LA says
seth 2014-01-19 10:27:23 17026
MeE 2014-01-17 07:58:52 17026
  • I suspect & think that you are mostly dancing around trying to avoid what RS would call the Spirit of a Nation or some higher level Being
  • too bad some clairvoyance is needed for that - not likely to encounter much on the physical plane on that one
  • It is fascinating to contemplate in Silence & watch the chaos not yet become Cosmos & let it go without clothing it in language or making symbols & pictures of it
  • As far as I can tell such is mostly personal - but who knows? I can't clothe it in anything & stay silent.
  • catch-22

Well i am certainly seeking "some higher level Being" and have said so in several different ways ... even calling it things like "Gestalt of Humanity as a whole Being".  But you are correct in noticing that i am avoiding seeing it through RS's spiritual world.  Quite because, as you have also noticed, that world is "mostly personal" and its essence necessarily cannot be shared in words.  Yet this higher level being i seek is what we share.  I do find your catch-22 to be real and unavoidable. 

Thing is this spiritual world can only be accessed with special powers which an extremely small number of people actually possess.  If there truly is a being of the whole here which we all share, i find it incredulous that its essential nature is dependent only on the personal qualities possessed by an elite few.  That is a contradiction that i cannot breach, notwithstanding that very elite suggesting  i should.
  • last 3 bullets misinterpreted
  • was talking about my own silent meditation experience
  • your thingy about ... "special powers .. " may mask just personal laziness or?
  • just plain bullshit ?
  • a bad experience at the threshold ?
  • or just personal self-building
  • something else
  • good luck getting somewhere else wise
  • enamoration with self pellick
  • thanks for sharing

Seth says
MeE 2014-01-19 11:32:59 17026
seth 2014-01-19 10:27:23 17026
MeE 2014-01-17 07:58:52 17026
  • I suspect & think that you are mostly dancing around trying to avoid what RS would call the Spirit of a Nation or some higher level Being
  • too bad some clairvoyance is needed for that - not likely to encounter much on the physical plane on that one
  • It is fascinating to contemplate in Silence & watch the chaos not yet become Cosmos & let it go without clothing it in language or making symbols & pictures of it
  • As far as I can tell such is mostly personal - but who knows? I can't clothe it in anything & stay silent.
  • catch-22

Well i am certainly seeking "some higher level Being" and have said so in several different ways ... even calling it things like "Gestalt of Humanity as a whole Being".  But you are correct in noticing that i am avoiding seeing it through RS's spiritual world.  Quite because, as you have also noticed, that world is "mostly personal" and its essence necessarily cannot be shared in words.  Yet this higher level being i seek is what we share.  I do find your catch-22 to be real and unavoidable. 

Thing is this spiritual world can only be accessed with special powers which an extremely small number of people actually possess.  If there truly is a being of the whole here which we all share, i find it incredulous that its essential nature is dependent only on the personal qualities possessed by an elite few.  That is a contradiction that i cannot breach, notwithstanding that very elite suggesting  i should.
  • last 3 bullets misinterpreted
  • was talking about my own silent meditation experience
  • your thingy about ... "special powers .. " may mask just personal laziness or?
  • just plain bullshit ?
  • a bad experience at the threshold ?
  • or just personal self-building
  • something else
  • good luck getting somewhere else wise
  • enamoration with self pellick
  • thanks for sharing

Well i knew you were talking about your "own silent meditation experience" with when you said
  • It is fascinating to contemplate in Silence & watch the chaos not yet become Cosmos & let it go without clothing it in language or making symbols & pictures of it
  • As far as I can tell such is mostly personal - but who knows? I can't clothe it in anything & stay silent.
  • catch-22

... so i don't think i misinterpreted you at all.  RS also went into this in depth too ... you cannot  communicate spiritual experience from person to person ... you must experience it yourself ... totally unlike normal human life where things are shared.   You said it differently above but i do think we are talking about the very same process here ... are we not?

Me i totally accept that silent characteristic of spiritual experience.  So then i conclude that communicating anything from that spiritual experience in my normal human life with others would be a categorical error of the first kind.  i have no problem with a teacher saying meditate like this, practice this exercise, and you can discover a splendid world inside yourself.  i do have a problem when they imply things from that world should be used in a particular manner our here in the world that we all must share.  When they do so, they are doing it based exclusively on their authority. 


Mark de LA says
  • catch-22 is simply that one can't be silent & follow one's own inclination not to be silent & engage/chase what floats through one's consciousness - nothing occult, eh?
  • the exercise nobody else invented for me - not GW & not RS not PR not TR ....
  • I decided to do it one day & try for total silence
  • the best I could do was not engaging what went bye not clothe with words pics etc
  • still not total silence, emptyness or the cosmic word
  • still having authority issues, eh bro?
  • I don't personally care where I get an idea they are already in the Universe - I don't create them - I perceive them one can call them beings or not, spiritual or not
  • I choose not to reinvent the wheel, fire, mathematics ....
  • One can communicate about experience ...
  • In the contemplation intensives asking "Who Am I & communicate that to Another" it was just the conversation versus the alternative staring at a wall"
  • Rubbing up against another helped clarify
  • the Ahas came while I was alone
  • the other did not talk back, though
  • LOL

Seth says
  • well yes i do carry your catch-22 a bit further.  i am focusing more on the effect of the fact that you must be silent for these kinds of experiences to show up, and if you talk you are not being silent, therefore the content cannot be shared.  RS does say that people cannot bring out what they experience from the spiritual world.  i am just suggesting that is the very same effect you are experiencing which you referred to as catch-22.  if it isn't then fine too, we would have 2 different effects here (or maybe even 3) ... but i really do think they are the same thing: ... personal experience is, er, personal .. it cannot be shared ... and spiritual experience is personal experience.  
  • i am interested in your exercise ... how is it different than Za Zen?
  • you code "authority" as my issue, bro ... i expect that is just a bloody invitation to rwg.  authority is good and bad ... and i can see both sides of that.  i think it is just too convent for you to switch to rwg mode here so that the real issue does not need to be dealt with.  maybe as an exercise you could try to keep your assumption that Bozo here has a issue with authority silent, so that some day we might be able to use that term to actually communicate.  who knows, maybe it is you who have an issue with authority.  ask yourself, why is it that you accept RS's or PR's or GW's or Bush's or Limbaugh's words as true, yet not Obama's, or mine, or your own? ...... Fact is when somebody tells you something from their so called Spiritual World you must take it as true only on their authority.  That is not "my issue with authority" ... that is the nature of communicating from the so called Spiritual World.  
  • yep ideas come from all over ... some of them from you ... most from outside myself ... but  some of them i even synthesize myself.  obviously the latter have a special glow to just me ... those in particular seem to have a shit color to you .  
  • yes, "one can communicate about experience" ... and ... one can even share experience (eg i punch you in the nose) ... one cannot share spiritual experience ... one cannot share silent personal experience. 
  • rubbing up against someone is sharing an experience with them.

Mark de LA says
seth 2014-01-20 07:08:52 17026
  • well yes i do carry your catch-22 a bit further.  i am focusing more on the effect of the fact that you must be silent for these kinds of experiences to show up, and if you talk you are not being silent, therefore the content cannot be shared.  RS does say that people cannot bring out what they experience from the spiritual world.  i am just suggesting that is the very same effect you are experiencing which you referred to as catch-22.  if it isn't then fine too, we would have 2 different effects here (or maybe even 3) ... but i really do think they are the same thing: ... personal experience is, er, personal .. it cannot be shared ... and spiritual experience is personal experience.  
  • i am interested in your exercise ... how is it different than Za Zen?
  • you code "authority" as my issue, bro ... i expect that is just a bloody invitation to rwg.  authority is good and bad ... and i can see both sides of that.  i think it is just too convent for you to switch to rwg mode here so that the real issue does not need to be dealt with.  maybe as an exercise you could try to keep your assumption that Bozo here has a issue with authority silent, so that some day we might be able to use that term to actually communicate.  who knows, maybe it is you who have an issue with authority.  ask yourself, why is it that you accept RS's or PR's or GW's or Bush's or Limbaugh's words as true, yet not Obama's, or mine, or your own? ...... Fact is when somebody tells you something from their so called Spiritual World you must take it as true only on their authority.  That is not "my issue with authority" ... that is the nature of communicating from the so called Spiritual World.  
  • yep ideas come from all over ... some of them from you ... most from outside myself ... but  some of them i even synthesize myself.  obviously the latter have a special glow to just me ... those in particular seem to have a shit color to you .  
  • yes, "one can communicate about experience" ... and ... one can even share experience (eg i punch you in the nose) ... one cannot share spiritual experience ... one cannot share silent personal experience. 
  • rubbing up against someone is sharing an experience with them.
  • Mostly RWG Big Time for you - not my intention
  • I believe you are wrong about spiritual experience
  • You are still using the catch-22 wrong - try talking about your shit without using mine
  • I never read ZaZen instructions.  MH from the Thursday night class suggested we sit still, focus on a spot on the ground with our eyes, focus with our mind on our breathing & have that be the sole activity returning to those points whenever one strayed at least 15 minutes a day.  I did it for a year, but probably missed my shot a couple of times.
  • I just intend not chasing the shit running through my mind for as long as I can stand to do the exercise - usually 5 minutes or less.
  • I did something between contemplations with PR, but because of the favorable environment (no TV, no Internet, no FastBlogIt) & nothing but Zen to play with & the question "Who Am I?", I came away from experience with the metaphor that it was like playing a drum set - each new mind thingy got my attention (like hitting a drum or symbal or cowbell etc.) & then something else came up to hit.  The instructions were different for that mini exercise.

Mark de LA says
seth 2014-01-20 09:33:14 17026

  • i think when i avoid the reflections of the meta-world, when i can silence those, yet remain awake and focused, personal experiences show up ... perhaps even from what others have called the spiritual world.  the problem is that there is no way for me to share those experiences with another person.  now if i am adapt at my communication skill, i can at best describe around about them, but remembering them when they happen is to resort to the meta-world from which the experiences themselves have long ago disappeared.  hence catch-22. 
  • so when you say, "It is about trying to do one thing & the opposite at the same time in my observing the shit flying bye in my mind", to me that describes the same thing i have describe above.  or said differently, trying to remember the experience, makes it disappear.  
  • "just plain feels wrong merged" ... ... how is that?
  • "NOT spirituality" ... er, well yes of course if you consider spirituality something that needs special powers that you don't possess.
  • "NOT occult" ... ah, well they certainly are "occult" ... that is they are secret (see above).  i mean, that is what occult does mean.
  • "NOT following gurus & mentors" ... not sure why you mention that here in this context.  if you follow a guru, you follow a guru ... if you meditate and things show up, then you experience those things ... i guess you are trying to accuse me of something here, but i have no idea what.  so just ignore this one ... that is unless something useful shows up ... lol.
  • "not forwarding your wallaby much yet in my judgement" ... yeah probably not ... er, binocular thinking does mean that you keep both eyes open at the same time.
  • "I can lick that spoon with zest" ... yumm yumy... good for the tummy
  • I conclude you have a catch-22 & I have a catch-22 & Joseph Heller had a catch-22
  • They are all different
  • They all have the same logical inconsistency somewhere in them
  • Ours are not the SAME ONE
  • the other bullets just trying to prove you were not wrong which is just RWG
  • I say get on with it
  • i.e. for some value of it being your wallaby



Mark de LA says
seth 2014-01-20 08:06:35 17026
MeE 2014-01-20 07:27:35 17026
seth 2014-01-20 07:08:52 17026
  • well yes i do carry your catch-22 a bit further.  i am focusing more on the effect of the fact that you must be silent for these kinds of experiences to show up, and if you talk you are not being silent, therefore the content cannot be shared.  RS does say that people cannot bring out what they experience from the spiritual world.  i am just suggesting that is the very same effect you are experiencing which you referred to as catch-22.  if it isn't then fine too, we would have 2 different effects here (or maybe even 3) ... but i really do think they are the same thing: ... personal experience is, er, personal .. it cannot be shared ... and spiritual experience is personal experience.  
  • i am interested in your exercise ... how is it different than Za Zen?
  • you code "authority" as my issue, bro ... i expect that is just a bloody invitation to rwg.  authority is good and bad ... and i can see both sides of that.  i think it is just too convent for you to switch to rwg mode here so that the real issue does not need to be dealt with.  maybe as an exercise you could try to keep your assumption that Bozo here has a issue with authority silent, so that some day we might be able to use that term to actually communicate.  who knows, maybe it is you who have an issue with authority.  ask yourself, why is it that you accept RS's or PR's or GW's or Bush's or Limbaugh's words as true, yet not Obama's, or mine, or your own? ...... Fact is when somebody tells you something from their so called Spiritual World you must take it as true only on their authority.  That is not "my issue with authority" ... that is the nature of communicating from the so called Spiritual World.  
  • yep ideas come from all over ... some of them from you ... most from outside myself ... but  some of them i even synthesize myself.  obviously the latter have a special glow to just me ... those in particular seem to have a shit color to you .  
  • yes, "one can communicate about experience" ... and ... one can even share experience (eg i punch you in the nose) ... one cannot share spiritual experience ... one cannot share silent personal experience. 
  • rubbing up against someone is sharing an experience with them.
  • Mostly RWG Big Time for you - not my intention
  • I believe you are wrong about spiritual experience
  • You are still using the catch-22 wrong - try talking about your shit without using mine
  • I never read ZaZen instructions.  MH from the Thursday night class suggested we sit still, focus on a spot on the ground with our eyes, focus with our mind on our breathing & have that be the sole activity returning to those points whenever one strayed at least 15 minutes a day.  I did it for a year, but probably missed my shot a couple of times.
  • I just intend not chasing the shit running through my mind for as long as I can stand to do the exercise - usually 5 minutes or less.
  • I did something between contemplations with PR, but because of the favorable environment (no TV, no Internet, no FastBlogIt) & nothing but Zen to play with & the question "Who Am I?", I came away from experience with the metaphor that it was like playing a drum set - each new mind thingy got my attention (like hitting a drum or symbal or cowbell etc.) & then something else came up to hit.  The instructions were different for that mini exercise.
  • i have been recognizing a pattern here for some time.  when some mutual comprehension threatens to emerge, you switch to rwg mode to avoid it.  suddenly you start writing sentences about me, where bozo is the subject, and usually those are insulting or disrespect my otherness ... attacking me rather than deal with the thing emerging. 
  • if you really think that your catch-22 is different than my "you cannot communicate personal experience", then you need to tell me why it is different ... or, ok, just avoid it ... maybe too much work, eh?
  • as far as i can tell the exercise you describe above is the same meditation as the monks at the Zen monestary in San Francisco described to me.  Your hitting the drum set metaphor is great ... am going to see if i can get there too .
  • sigh ! content long ago left the Topic
  • I resort to Play Nexus feeling thingy while reading your attempt to munge our two ideas under the banner of catch-22 & say now it just plain feels wrong merged
  • IMHO (which is neither) the exercise of watching the mind is NOT about the inability to communicate spiritual experience.
  • It is about trying to do one thing & the opposite at the same time in my observing the shit flying bye in my mind. Mine is simply observing my mind.
  • NOT spirituality
  • NOT occult
  • NOT following gurus & mentors
  • still complain - not forwarding your wallaby much yet in my judgement
  • I can lick that spoon with zest

Mark de LA says
seth 2014-01-21 07:47:46 17026
source: mark
  • You do not speak for all humans - just one.
  • You do not speak for all the set of people in the abstract, editorial collective WE variable. 
  • Not all humans in the WE pile agree on anything.
  • You do not speak for ME half the time, even
  • Do you even speak for yourself or are you speaking for just your point of view? political party? race, gender, history ....

... mostly true.


... but is that the end of the story?

Did King speak for you here?


Sounds pretty good to me!
His definition of racism probably different than the people who try to speak for him these days on racism, eh?


Mark de LA says
… a nugget from 2 years ago.

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