The limits of my language mean the limits of my world.

...

Tags

  1. language
  2. physics
  3. worldview

Comments


MeE says
seth 2014-01-23 08:16:21 17040
MeE 2014-01-23 07:40:34 17040
seth 2014-01-23 07:15:40 17040
MeE 2014-01-23 06:57:11 17040
Nur der Teil der Welt, die Ihre Sprache, die für Erfahrung bewusst sein muss, ist begrenzt. Versuchen Sie, auf einen Orgasmus und erweitern Sie Ihre Welt.

Ihre Verhaltenswortschatz können auch Ihre Sprache aufgerufen werden
Yes, anything can be called language & so YOU can avoid being precise & having distinctions in your consciousness.


Well not "anything" ... but mathematically a language is not limited to words ... the same things happen when we use habits ... or anything else that has a vocabulary.  think of a language as a set of things (vocabulary) that are invoked and combined within a process. 

here is a new one we can add to our vocabulary here in fastblogit dialogue: if you want to avoid rwg, don't say anything about me ... or if you do, make totally sure before you say it that it will ring just as true over here, as it does in your own mind.  Obviously the same habit goes for me too. 
... having missed the point I should have added to my last statement .. "If you hold this point of view"
RWG onward - we can toast & lick the spoon!


Seth says
MeE 2014-01-23 07:40:34 17040
seth 2014-01-23 07:15:40 17040
MeE 2014-01-23 06:57:11 17040
Nur der Teil der Welt, die Ihre Sprache, die für Erfahrung bewusst sein muss, ist begrenzt. Versuchen Sie, auf einen Orgasmus und erweitern Sie Ihre Welt.

Ihre Verhaltenswortschatz können auch Ihre Sprache aufgerufen werden
Yes, anything can be called language & so YOU can avoid being precise & having distinctions in your consciousness.


Well not "anything" ... but mathematically a language is not limited to words ... the same things happen when we use habits ... or anything else that has a vocabulary.  think of a language as a set of things (vocabulary) that are invoked and combined within a process. 

here is a new one we can add to our vocabulary here in fastblogit dialogue: if you want to avoid rwg, don't say anything about me ... or if you do, make totally sure before you say it that it will ring just as true over here, as it does in your own mind.  Obviously the same habit goes for me too. 

MeE says
  • might want to contemplate consciousness as a subject & not all stuff you surrounded it with in your post
  • that's pretty much it
  • there is no desire on this side of the fence to convince you otherwise than let you fence yourself in with your own language
  • outside of consciousness there is also feelings & emotions - see list from d'A
  • yes we have words some of which can be found here
  • still we can have them without the words & they usually show up before the words thus real experience is not limited by language
  • enjoy
  • have fun
  • be nice



MeE says

Seth says
MeE 2014-01-23 14:40:47 17040
  • don't know I am not pursuing that path.
  • enjoy
  • have fun
  • be kind

yeah i pretty much know that  you interest lies outside of the meta-world-mind ... or language ... or for that matter anything really of this world that we can share. 

i even expect you need no invocation from me to have your fun in that space which cannot be named ... ... but if you really hanker for such, i will oblige

Seth says
MeE 2014-01-23 12:13:19 17040

well it does seem to me that Erhard's "In short, language gives one access to the way in which what one is dealing with occurs for one, with which action (and therefore performance) is naturally, necessarily closely connected (mutually arising)" is consistant with my conjecture "reflection of experience into the meta-world is what creates consciousness" ... combined of course with the idea that manipulation of that meta-world through some kind of language is how we perform. 

Seth says
MeE 2014-01-23 10:27:31 17040
MeE 2014-01-23 09:02:39 17040
Thou, proud member of the Human Species, independent thinker desireth of making up even thine own words as coins for his own realm, emotionally empathetic to all otherness in the whole Cosmos, wouldst limit thine own experience by what thou canst put into words or otherness puts into words for you?
  • I missed having that gene!
  • Is there safety in the walled garden of labels & words?

  • I say Consciousness is superior to language in limiting & expanding my World.
  • Your results may vary.

lots of things happening here ...
  • first is that you keep talking about language as if it is only words ... yet, as i pointed out, ... it can be anything that has a set of things that are deployed in a process according to some rules ... for example habits, recipes, etc.  
  • second, i acknowledge that is a restraint (limitation) of all possible kinds of actions ... and certainly that escaping all behavioral vocabularies and rules is probably the highest kind of being human.
  • third, and this may be tangential, the question emerges:  does taking away experience's reflection into the meta-world also take away consciousness itself?  or is that very reflection of experience into the meta-world that which creates consciousness? 
  • ... or alternatively, perhaps consciousness can exist without objects being reflected at all, yet still may contain objects, which may or may not be shareable ... or may even be devoid of any objectness entirely.  Obviously i am using the word "object" here in the very broadest possible sense ... could be a process, could be a spirit, just as long as we can point to it. 
  • ... well yes, if i were living in that world, i might be less limited than in the world in which i actually seem to be living.  but *really*, action without consciousness of acting?  sounds like a weird kind of thingy ... kind of like a mindless robot, no?  me, i personally am not drawn to that ... don't see excitement in it ... it sounds rather like just a total submission to whatever the hell there is.  
  • sometimes i actually do that ... then i wake up and need to imply what i did by virtue or where i am ... woopse, i forgot where i was going and ended up letting the car drive me to the mall instead. 
  • but i rather think that is not at all what you are talking about.  
  • i wonder, however, could you distinguish that from what it is you are talking about?

Seth says
source: mark
  • still we can have them without the words & they usually show up before the words thus real experience is not limited by language
... well yes certainly voicing what shows up in the words or a language is not necessary. 

However the very way we talk about "showing up" implies to me reflection into the meta-world.  Take away the showing up, and you take away the consciousness, and you take away the meta-world.  Manipulation of what showed up is what we do with language.  Or at least that is my model of how language is connected to consciousness.  So sure, in my model, things showing up (or us being conscious of things) can exist without language.  Maybe no-thing shows up at all, yet consciousness as a subject shows up on its own.  Hey, great stuff!  ... and yes, totally unlimited by language.

Another place we see that is how we were as babies before we acquired any language.  It certainly does exist as a blissful state.  No language necessary.  Also, i might add, maybe no "consciousness" either.

Still and all, the manipulation of what does show up, must needs be limited by the vocabulary and rules of the language in which the manipulation is performed.  That was kind of Wittgenstein's point here, no?

M1g0r says
seth 2014-01-23 15:00:12 17040
MeE 2014-01-23 14:40:47 17040
  • don't know I am not pursuing that path.
  • enjoy
  • have fun
  • be kind

yeah i pretty much know that  you interest lies outside of the meta-world-mind ... or language ... or for that matter anything really of this world that we can share. 

i even expect you need no invocation from me to have your fun in that space which cannot be named ... ... but if you really hanker for such, i will oblige
  • Bozo becomes an occultist & invents his own language
  • Secret & non secret diagrams with specialized meanings
  • Meta worlds
  • not so different from dear old dad
  • at least his math worked, maybe?
  • his language more precise 3342
  • i don't need new language pointing to the same old shit
  • 15401 is sufficient juice 4 me

How could something like PJ2 incarnate with more authenticity & juice & community - maybe even some threefoldness?



Seth says
M1g0r 2014-01-24 07:28:30 17040
I've seen this in the air & in the water within a circular aquarium - being at a group level performance - is there a land version you think of? buffaloes stampeding over a cliff ?

well group behavior does have the beauty of, er group behavior .... and its ugliness too. Thing is since we are human, we can always depend on people of your part to zig against the zag ... to slay our mary poppins and besmerch our pollyannas ... and lead or follow.  So the result acts even wiser than any one of us can even imagine alone.  otherness, diversity and tolerance are our strength, not our weakness.  me thinks that is the nature of this beast. 

thing is, it might just be too soon for any one person to feel the pattern of the fly ... so, were it to be felt, it might just need to be made up as fiction.  oh well!

M1g0r says
seth 2014-01-24 10:27:40 17040
M1g0r 2014-01-24 09:58:45 17040
seth 2014-01-24 09:24:13 17040
M1g0r 2014-01-24 09:15:33 17040
seth 2014-01-24 09:05:30 17040
source: mark
Then too there are the wildebeests & zebras tromping around the savannah who get eaten by the Lions!

... then too there are lots of wildebeests and zebras, who seem to be thriving under the pressure from the few lions. 

are capitalists predictors and consumers prey?  i don't know.  i don't need to pick a side.

i think that may well be the point where the "meta-world-mind" emerges ... it soars higher than eat or be eaten.
In one's imagination!


well i'm not prepared to knock reason, or imagination either ...  and certainly not, when contemplating "who we humans are?". 
The sublime artistry at a group level behavior descended & deserves some ==>>> spoon licking



source: i think i'll let The Bard of Avon do it for me ...

 'What a piece of work is a man! How noble in reason, how infinite in faculty! In form and moving how express and admirable! In action how like an Angel! in apprehension how like a god! The beauty of the world! The paragon of animals!
...

Nice & tasty!

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