Up Your Ass with Aphorisms

About: title not given

The truth doesn’t mean anything.

It just is.

If you keep saying it the way it really is, eventually your word is law in the universe.

Man keeps looking for a truth that fits his reality.

Given our reality, the truth doesn’t fit.

If you experience it, it’s the truth.

The same thing believed is a lie.

In life, understanding is the booby prize

ETC.

(Werner Erhard) in facebook this AM.

Comments

Seth says

source: mark
munging the map with the territory again ?

... No. if your really think i am, can you clearly and directly explain why?

Seth says

source: mark
A simpler way to express how I hold things is:

What's so is the same as what exists
That which exists, exists without you or I ...
it just IS

What is being expressed on your side of the universe seems to me
like no stars exist until someone discovers one
& yet on the Sci channel someone said there are more stars in the sky than all the grains of sand on the Earth
You can get one named after Bozo
Does it exist yet?
no TV programs until you watch one?
sudden existence just waiting for a mind to happen?
what was the Universe doing before you came along?

i also believe "what's so is the same as what exists and it exists without you or i interpreting it". I mean that is pretty much just the way we defined it. I have no problems with that whatsoever.

There is nothing in what i have said that would imply "no stars exist until someone discovers them" ... in fact i said quite the opposite when i defined my concept called "otherness".

That said there are aspects of our culture which don't exist until we make them exist ... er, discover them. We need to carefully distinguish those cases from the kind of shared (or potentially shared) experiences to which you refer above.

Seth says

M1g0r 2014-01-28 07:54:09 17043

seth 2014-01-28 07:37:11 17043

M1g0r 2014-01-27 23:01:03 17043

seth 2014-01-27 20:59:55 17043

source: mark

what's so is what happens independent of interpretation, mind & a lot of of other bullshit

Well yes of course ! I bolded the peaky part ... which nonetheless is the correct criteria and i totally agree with it. The problem, of course, is that it is quite impossible to experience without a mind there to interpret that which is so. To comprehend this practical philosophy you must totally accept that assumption. The rest of what i keep saying about truth pretty much follows from that assumption. But sure you can reject that assumption or try to get around it by some kind of rationalization, then you probably end up with the philosophy you have now.

Logically its almost mathematical like do parallel lines meet at infinity or not. Pick one and you get one kind of geometry, pick the other and you get something quite different. Nothing really to argue about anymore.

maybe
maybe not
you threw in the word experience - i didn't
I experienced sleep a little while ago
that's a what's so
my mind was not there during the whole time
is this one of those trees falling in the forest thingies?
I suspect that someone died a little while ago in the World
we could go discover that, but in the world that is not only predictable but likely given the 6+ billion people on the Earth
is that a what's so or not?

just saying

well i expect you experienced something that your mind interpreted as sleep a while ago, else you would not be honestly discussing it. Sometimes i know i went to sleep by what i expderience when i wake up ... for example Denise informed me that i slept through most of 60 minutes .... at first i didn't beleive it .... but when she listed the stories that were not in my memory i was qute sure she was telling me the truth.

How does it feel to expect that someone died a while ago? Expecting is an experience. I also expect that there exists a myriad of events quite independent of the interpretations of my mind ... i even have a name for that, "otherness". but i cannot honestly say anything about them except to tell you the calculations or predictions or wishes or hopes of my mind about them ... or, if they already happened, my interpretations of the manifestations of them of which i become aware.

i cannot be consciously aware of anything outside of that which i experience ... or said differently, i can be aware of that which i am not aware ... necessarily.

The salient distinction is
Does that which exists depend upon YOU?
That which you are aware of may depend upon YOU
That which you experience certainly depends somewhat upon YOU
+ other shit
there is (believe it or not)
stuff which exists outside of YOU
solipsism notwithstanding

Well clearly that which is independent of me does not depend on me ... again necessarily. I actually asserted pretty much exactly what you said when you said, "there is stuff which exists outside of you", when i said: "I also expect that there exists a myriad of events quite independent of the interpretations of my mind". Do you not see those implying the same thing?

Incidentally i do not believe in solipsism ... i firmly believe in otherness ... even though i have not experienced it for my myself.

Mark de LA says

seth 2014-01-28 08:13:28 17043

M1g0r 2014-01-28 07:54:09 17043

seth 2014-01-28 07:37:11 17043

M1g0r 2014-01-27 23:01:03 17043

seth 2014-01-27 20:59:55 17043

source: mark

what's so is what happens independent of interpretation, mind & a lot of of other bullshit

maybe
maybe not
you threw in the word experience - i didn't
I experienced sleep a little while ago
that's a what's so
my mind was not there during the whole time
is this one of those trees falling in the forest thingies?
I suspect that someone died a little while ago in the World
we could go discover that, but in the world that is not only predictable but likely given the 6+ billion people on the Earth
is that a what's so or not?

just saying

The salient distinction is
Does that which exists depend upon YOU?
That which you are aware of may depend upon YOU
That which you experience certainly depends somewhat upon YOU
+ other shit
there is (believe it or not)
stuff which exists outside of YOU
solipsism notwithstanding

so that which is so
i.e. exists
doesn't depend upon a mind to interpret
-or-
for it to exist for Bozo
it depends upon Bozo
that last is solipsism - go read the Wikipedia again
there for a second I thought we could get rid of all Existence by getting rid of ...
Bozo
he's the culprit ..
no more pain & suffering .. no existence
no pain
anywhere
because there is no where there
because there is no there there

Mark de LA says

seth 2014-01-28 07:37:11 17043

M1g0r 2014-01-27 23:01:03 17043

seth 2014-01-27 20:59:55 17043

source: mark

what's so is what happens independent of interpretation, mind & a lot of of other bullshit

maybe
maybe not
you threw in the word experience - i didn't
I experienced sleep a little while ago
that's a what's so
my mind was not there during the whole time
is this one of those trees falling in the forest thingies?
I suspect that someone died a little while ago in the World
we could go discover that, but in the world that is not only predictable but likely given the 6+ billion people on the Earth
is that a what's so or not?

just saying

The salient distinction is
Does that which exists depend upon YOU?
That which you are aware of may depend upon YOU
That which you experience certainly depends somewhat upon YOU
+ other shit
there is (believe it or not)
stuff which exists outside of YOU
solipsism notwithstanding

Mark de LA says

M1g0r 2014-01-27 23:01:03 17043

seth 2014-01-27 20:59:55 17043

source: mark

what's so is what happens independent of interpretation, mind & a lot of of other bullshit

maybe
maybe not
you threw in the word experience - i didn't
I experienced sleep a little while ago
that's a what's so
my mind was not there during the whole time
is this one of those trees falling in the forest thingies?
I suspect that someone died a little while ago in the World
we could go discover that, but in the world that is not only predictable but likely given the 6+ billion people on the Earth
is that a what's so or not?

just saying

A simpler way to express how I hold things is:

What's so is the same as what exists
That which exists, exists without you or I ...
it just IS

What is being expressed on your side of the universe seems to me
like no stars exist until someone discovers one
& yet on the Sci channel someone said there are more stars in the sky than all the grains of sand on the Earth
You can get one named after Bozo
Does it exist yet?
no TV programs until you watch one?
sudden existence just waiting for a mind to happen?
what was the Universe doing before you came along?

Mark de LA says

seth 2014-01-26 20:57:21 17043

source: mark
munging the map with the territory again ?

... No. if your really think i am, can you clearly and directly explain why?

Yes.
But you would just munge them together with what you said already to prove yet again that you are right so why do it?
True sentences merely point to that which is so & are not to be confused with what is so itself.
QED.

Mark de LA says

seth 2014-01-25 13:00:24 17043

source: mark
Standing on a shaky ground of transcendental truth makes one unstable

... well i don't know what you mean by "trancendental truth".

But standing on the ground of my own experience and what i feel is true makes me feel honest ... when i do otherwise i usually find that i was telling a lie. I find it to be more stable actually.

A trancendal truth is a truth which is here now & disappears later as if it had a package expiration date & time. If your frame of reference is always I am right then of course truth only depends upon you & that is very stable until you don't exist. I think Werner is saying that anything outside the moment of now that you are NOT experiencing does not exist out in the world.

Seth says

M1g0r 2014-01-25 13:36:51 17043

seth 2014-01-25 13:00:24 17043

source: mark
Standing on a shaky ground of transcendental truth makes one unstable

for me truth is just a feeling about something ... and, er, it is a feeling that *i* experience ... you don't experience that particular feeling because you are not me, although i strongly presume you have your own such feelings. Where we disagree is that you seem to want to make my truth feeling mean something else ... mean something to which that i have no access ... some standardized actuality from the universe ... but sorry i cannot experience that ... and i don't believe you can either. that these feelings of truth can change is just something that i accept, like erhardt's "riding a horse in the direction it is going". now i'll go back and carefully read this paragraph, and keep editing it until i cannot make it feel any more true.

Mark de LA says

seth 2014-01-25 10:57:37 17043

A bit broader context here might help. Erhard is talking about experience. Presumably that is also what he calls "what is so". He is also talking about what is experienced in any particular moment: "You don’t get to vote on the way it is. You already did" and "It’s much easier to ride the horse in the direction he’s going".

then you picked out his bomb ...

source: Erhard
If you experience it, it’s the truth.
The same thing believed is a lie.
In life, understanding is the booby prize

... which does also feel true for any particular moment.

But i don't just live in the moment ... i move ... i seek ... i imagine ...i create ... just according to what i understand and believe or expect. That does change what is so and what i experience. So, if i got his "booby prize"

, ... i am throwing it back in his face

Nothing changes what's so, not withstanding:

in a BØZØ ≈ BØ≠Ø World - M^^4 prevails.
Homeopathic truthy-ness is useless
Standing on a shaky ground of transcendental truth makes one unstable

Mark de LA says

seth 2014-01-25 17:40:16 17043

M1g0r 2014-01-25 13:36:51 17043

seth 2014-01-25 13:00:24 17043

source: mark
Standing on a shaky ground of transcendental truth makes one unstable

TRUTH is not FEELING - some feelings may result when you encounter truth.
I would like you to have the feeling that you are an asshole like I am having about you.
It seems like every time you encounter the notion of truth you retreat inside yourself to escape.
adios!

Mark de LA says

My favorite quote from the Gods Must Be Crazy on the subject, heard on a radio in the background is "a Philosophers convention held recently could not agree upon anything except "THAT WHICH IS, IS!"

Mark de LA says

seth 2014-01-26 08:20:39 17043

M1g0r 2014-01-25 20:24:37 17043

seth 2014-01-25 17:40:16 17043

M1g0r 2014-01-25 13:36:51 17043

seth 2014-01-25 13:00:24 17043

source: mark
Standing on a shaky ground of transcendental truth makes one unstable

TRUTH is not FEELING - some feelings may result when you encounter truth.
I would like you to have the feeling that you are an asshole like I am having about you.
It seems like every time you encounter the notion of truth you retreat inside yourself to escape.
adios!

well the way you say this i don't see any essential difference but rather just one in our language here. Take for example true sentences ... when i read a true sentence i feel (experience) the truth of the sentence ... apparently you call truth the characteristic of the sentence ... i call truth the feeling i experience. it is fairly unimportant which thingey we talk about. But the characteristic of the sentence is not something that exists apart from just the feeling.

It's all good
if it's good
isn't it?
or is it?
munging the map with the territory again ?
what a true sentence points to is what is SO!
isn't it?
that is what I call the truth or just plain truth for the M^^4 crowdies
I hold the inability to make distinctions or hold onto them when another makes them as a default in language education
.. or maybe the wrong zenmaster was worshipped
good though

Seth says

M1g0r 2014-01-26 23:29:43 17043

Here is an endless almost series of Heidegger philosophy courses at Berkeley
Enjoy them
the punchline for the first one is near the end
they are as much fun
and as clear
as this discussion

yeah strangely enough i have read a whole lot of this kind of philosophy ... though not all of it. i started way back when i was about 12 or so with the Philosophy of Freedom by Rudolph Steiner. also, strangely enough, i find if i think for myself in the words that i publicly write, and only use these philosophers for advise, it is much more fun and not so very tedious and academic as you perhaps are supposing.

My philosophy is based upon experience ... that which i cannot deny ... then recognizes that some of these experiences can be somehow shared with others ... also something that i cannot deny.

Then, like all philosophies, i must deal with how things from outside, from otherness, get reflected inside me via my sense organs.

You characterize your own philosophy, if you will, it contains a grand assumption that does not work for me ... and, no, i am not talking here about the spiritual world. quite possibly is it just the way you talk about things in your language ... i don't know, because you never really describe it in enough detail for me to see why you talk about "what is so" as if that is something that anybody can actually know or base their philosophy on.

Mark de LA says

seth 2014-01-27 08:21:48 17043

M1g0r 2014-01-26 23:29:43 17043

Here is an endless almost series of Heidegger philosophy courses at Berkeley
Enjoy them
the punchline for the first one is near the end
they are as much fun
and as clear
as this discussion

yeah strangely enough i have read a whole lot of this kind of philosophy ... though not all of it. i started way back when i was about 12 or so with the Philosophy of Freedom by Rudolph Steiner. also, strangely enough, if i think for myself in the words that i publicly write, and only use these philosophers for advise, it is much more fun and not so very tedious and academic as you perhaps are supposing.

My philosophy is based upon experience ... that which i cannot deny ... then recognizes that some of these experiences can be somehow shared with others ... also something that i cannot deny.

Then, like all philosophies, i must deal with how things from outside, from otherness, get reflected inside me via my sense organs.

You characterize your own philosophy, if you will, it contains a grand assumption that does not work for me ... and, no, i am not talking here about the spiritual world. quite possibly is it just the way you talk about things in your language ... i don't know, because you never really describe it in enough detail for me to see why you talk about "what is so" as if that is something that anybody can actually know or base their philosophy on.

what's so is what happens independent of interpretation, mind & a lot of of other bullshit
what's so is I took a shit this morning
a man that can't grasp what's so probably has no grasp of reality
what's so is I just posted these four bullets & posted this message to my item

Mark de LA says

seth 2014-01-27 08:37:00 17043

source: mark

what's so is what happens independent of interpretation, mind & a lot of of other bullshit
what's so is I took a shit this morning
a man that can't grasp what's so probably has no grasp of reality
what's so is I just posted these four bullets & posted this message to my item

Ok, i think that adequately describes what you are pointing to ... in that i know what you are talking about. i think it is your relationship to ~that~ and ~that's~ relationship to me where we disagree on how to talk about it. but, unfortunately i must move into the commercial part of my week. perhaps i will respond in more detail later, perhaps even tomorrow.

The salient point, dully missed, was I found the Heidegger lectures extremely boring.

I read Philosophy of Freedom early as did you
I found it really boring as I wanted more how to rather than arguing philosophy
I read Philosophy of Freedom later & understood it much better
What's so just IS - technically it has no relationship - check out some of the aphorisms
That's why I love to quote "That which IS, IS!" from the Gods must be Crazy (ibid).

Mark de LA says

Here is an endless almost series of Heidegger philosophy courses at Berkeley
Enjoy them
the punchline for the first one is near the end
they are as much fun
and as clear
as this discussion

Mark de LA says

Time to start a new item.
This one is bled dry
Somewhere around M1g0r : 2014-01-28 07:21:39 it got munged
Mind & Exists imploded
not going on with such

Seth says

source: mark

so that which is so
i.e. exists
doesn't depend upon a mind to interpret
-or-
for it to exist for Bozo
it depends upon Bozo
that last is solipsism - go read the Wikipedia again
there for a second I thought we could get rid of all Existence by getting rid of ...
Bozo
he's the culprit ..
no more pain & suffering .. no existence
no pain
anywhere
because there is no where there
because there is no there there

That which is so exists and does not depend on a mind to interpret it. Things don't exist for me, but i experience some of them and those which i do not experience in any form or fashion i know nothing about.

Mark de LA says

seth 2014-01-28 08:59:58 17043

source: mark

so that which is so
i.e. exists
doesn't depend upon a mind to interpret
-or-
for it to exist for Bozo
it depends upon Bozo
that last is solipsism - go read the Wikipedia again
there for a second I thought we could get rid of all Existence by getting rid of ...
Bozo
he's the culprit ..
no more pain & suffering .. no existence
no pain
anywhere
because there is no where there
because there is no there there

Seth can't read a stop sign
Thats solipsism read the def again
lets move on

Up Your Ass with Aphorisms

About: title not given

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