Otherness & Culture

About: otherness - definition of otherness by the free online dictionary, thesaurus and encyclopedia.

I say that the call to otherness & specifically Culture is a smoke screen.
  • Culture is an excuse for separateness
  • It is like the government is somehow not "We the People"
  • It is an excuse to play the x-card
    • substitute anything like race for x
    • like gender
    • like wealth & inequality"
    • like bullshit
  • are there some of us that are different?
  • vive la difference!
  • does it mean anything
  • should it be worshipped?
  • except for politicians?
  • nah!

  • except for those with special interests
  • in keeping the separateness
  • thriving
  • for political or personal gain

Tags

  1. strangeness
  2. politics
  3. culture
  4. otherness
  5. equality-inequality
  6. spoon slurp
  7. SymLoop

Comments


Seth says
Anyway this item is, hopefully, not about Bozo.

source: mark
Culture is an excuse for separateness
... huh?  In what manner are you meaning that?

Culture is a generalization of what we create together.  Society is another such generalization ... and "we the poeple" another one. Each generalization is used in the context in which it belongs.

Fairly obviously none of us want all of us to be  dancing to the same drummer ... or all of us together to create together a homogenous culture ... or to have just one society, nobody excluded ... or to speak with just one voice, nobody disagreeing.   Picture that ... it is not human!  So yes, culture, society, and we as a people, must needs respect our divdersity ... does it excuse it? ... well, er, ... yes it certainly does ... but without the pejorative connotations of the word ... a better word here might be "allows".

Was that how you meant it?

Seth says
M1g0r 2014-01-29 06:53:55 17046
seth 2014-01-29 06:15:45 17046
Anyway this item is, hopefully, not about Bozo.

source: mark
Culture is an excuse for separateness
... huh?  In what manner are you meaning that?

Culture is a generalization of what we create together.  Society is another such generalization ... and "we the poeple" another one. Each generalization is used in the context in which it belongs.

Fairly obviously none of us want all of us to be  dancing to the same drummer ... or all of us together to create together a homogenous culture ... or to have just one society, nobody excluded ... or to speak with just one voice, nobody disagreeing.   Picture that ... it is not human!  So yes, culture, society, and we as a people, must needs respect our divdersity ... does it excuse it? ... well, er, ... yes it certainly does ... but without the pejorative connotations of the word ... a better word here might be "allows".

Was that how you meant it?
  • nope
  • I acknowledge the normal usage of the word culture
  • this #SymLoop is more subtle
  • like blaming government when it is us
  • or blaming/extolling virtues of culture
  • which is obviously us
  • or not us
  • when us = togetherness
  • & not us = separateness or otherness
  • , eh?

hmmm ... ... not just a little bit of paradox in all of that sym loop.

thing is i think we must acknowledge that an individual is not generalized by all groups.  in that sense he is separate and otherness to most groups.  that assumption .. and me thinks is a paramount one ... is ignored in your sym loop.  but i think we are here dealing with the interplay of groups ... their attitude towards each other ...  how they should be together with each other, yet still and all separate.  the individual chooses, of course .... he is a group of one. 

... but what are you really saying about all of that?

Mark de LA says
seth 2014-01-29 06:15:45 17046
Anyway this item is, hopefully, not about Bozo.

source: mark
Culture is an excuse for separateness
... huh?  In what manner are you meaning that?

Culture is a generalization of what we create together.  Society is another such generalization ... and "we the poeple" another one. Each generalization is used in the context in which it belongs.

Fairly obviously none of us want all of us to be  dancing to the same drummer ... or all of us together to create together a homogenous culture ... or to have just one society, nobody excluded ... or to speak with just one voice, nobody disagreeing.   Picture that ... it is not human!  So yes, culture, society, and we as a people, must needs respect our divdersity ... does it excuse it? ... well, er, ... yes it certainly does ... but without the pejorative connotations of the word ... a better word here might be "allows".

Was that how you meant it?
  • nope
  • I acknowledge the normal usage of the word culture
  • this #SymLoop is more subtle
  • like blaming government when it is us
  • or blaming/extolling virtues of culture
  • which is obviously us
  • or not us
  • when us = togetherness
  • & not us = separateness or otherness
  • , eh?



Mark de LA says
seth 2014-01-28 10:05:50 17046
M1g0r 2014-01-28 10:00:27 17046
seth 2014-01-28 09:51:30 17046
Otherness, even in our culture, is that which is so apart from our interpretation ... or at least that is the way i use the word.  Cop a negative attitude towards that which is so apart from your interpretations, if you will, ... me i want no part of that.
  • Yep, you exude & illustrate such very well
  • hence the term BØZØ Ø
  • who would separate himself from nothing
  • or expressly
  • argue that nothing is not nothing
  • playing the "not me" card


otherness is not nothing.  it is something, i just don't know about it.   How is that me separating myself from nothing ? ... no that is me separating myself from something of which i know nothing.
  • BØZØ Ø is a comment about your style
  • you would argue about anything
  • perhaps even the subject of nothing
  • maybe the zen context of the 4 forms of nothing
  • maybe not
  • that subject could be something you want no part of
  • decoding .. all the O's in Bozo are math symbols for the null set
  • the symbol between them is the roughly equivalent sign ≈ .
  • in the second pair of O's there is a not equal math sign .
  • taken all the pseudo-equation is a soft rwg more on the argumentativeness side
  • than substantial -or-
  • than the ego protection of a full RWG


Mark de LA says
  • groups are artificial classifications
  • one man's opinion of some context
  • multiple groups presents a very complex Venn diagram ..
  • rapidly
  • thus enters the shenannigans of politics
  • & political discourse
  • ignoring the group we all belong to ...
  • HUMANS!
  • human beings

Mark de LA says
seth 2014-01-29 08:24:00 17046
source: mark
  • groups are artificial classifications
I don't find that true.  Groups are very real.  You are either a member of our group trying to create a food coop in Renton, or you are not ... there is a very tangible relationship any person can have to that group and the sum of all of those relationships actually creates a thingey that without those relationships would not exist.   The same with all real groups.  Take for example homosexuals or heterosexuals.  There is a distinct and real difference in behavior between those two groups ... it makes no sense to me to call that difference of behavior "artificial".  Then take another example ... those who eat Halal and those who eat Vegan.  Trust me Mark, they actually do eat different food and cook it differently too ... there is nothing artificial about these groups ... they are in fact different.

  • I still find it true
  • The edges of a group are rather fuzzy
  • even male/female is somewhat fuzzy these days behavior wise & otherwise
  • ontologically speaking groups are something made up in one's mind
  • additions to the physical, experiential
  • you brought up the word member, I didn't
  • in the larger sense are people who read your posts on facebook & otherwise & take away inspiration & ideas members or not?
  • it is time dependent, eh? some drop out -
  • some come in
  • all members of a group do not have the same properties
  • - even with respect to the definition of the group ..
  • subgroups & super-groups muddy up the Venn diagram
  • spreading properties across a group which do not belong to your grouping ...
  • is political shenanigans or lies & deception as well
  • the ignoring the largest grouping as human still works for others ...
  • not for me!
  • For what purpose do you want to divide peoples?

Seth says
source: mark
  • The edges of a group are rather fuzzy
  • even male/female is somewhat fuzzy these days behavior wise & otherwise
  • ontologically speaking groups are something made up in one's mind
  • additions to the physical, experiential
  • you brought up the word member, I didn't
  • in the larger sense are people who read your posts on facebook & otherwise & take away inspiration & ideas members or not?
  • it is time dependent, eh? some drop out -
  • some come in
  • all members of a group do not have the same properties
  • - even with respect to the definition of the group ..
  • subgroups & super-groups muddy up the Venn diagram
  • spreading properties across a group which do not belong to your grouping ...
  • is political shenanigans or lies & deception as well
  • the ignoring the largest grouping as human still works for others ...
  • not for me!

  1. yep the edges of a group are quite fuzzy
  2. we don't really live in a binary world
  3. assuming that groups and other distinctions are binary is to generalize out all their specific actuality
  4. such might be useful for academic work or gross pixelized modeling - bad for life
  5. a group implies members - this is right out of the definition of a set
  6. some of your observations about groups are certainly true; but i have no idea why those should mean that groups are not real
  7. or that groups don't have real relationships to each other
  8. or the groups dont have real relationships to their members
  9. or ther members back to the groups.
  10. by real here i mean tangeable and caseaul - ie being a member of a group has consequences
  11. muddy up the Venn diagram ...

Mark de LA says
  • you are talking about groups which are not mathematical, eh?
  • I am speaking about the ontology of groups of people mostly
  • They are facets of mind
  • just as malleable
  • It is almost like the basics in ontology where you could say that there is a chair over there
  • but there is not a chair over there but wood etc ....
  • or something which is something else within another context you are holding it within
  • & as itself for itself yet something else
  • binary world is a bugaboo of someone else
  • not me
  • the still unanswered question from way before is 
  • For what purpose do you want to divide peoples?
  • groups are not innate
  • For what purpose do you want to put people in groups?
  • For me that is separation
  • which untimately & probably unavoidably yields up polarity
  • one group will have advantage in some context versus another group
  • such latter elements yield the politics on the spectrum on the left side

Seth says
...
  1. i think there is something that needs to be eliminated from the discussion - and that is the partisan political controversy about pandering to a group
  2. i totally agree that politicians will pander to a group
  3. politicians pandering to  a group to get elected breaks the equal protection under the law provision of the constitution
  4. #3 should be avoided - i judge it bad
  5. i am extremely disinterested in discussing particular politicians or parties that pander to this or that group.
  6. but i am extremely interested in studying the relationship between groups and between individuals and groups 
  7. for example how individuals and groups can respect and tolerate each other
  8. ... that goes right to the heart of my levethan project
  9. i have no interest (or as you put it purpose) in dividing people into groups, rather i have an interest in recognizing the dynamics of groups and individuals that actually exist
  10. and being a functional member of groups with which i share a purpose.

Mark de LA says
I wonder how you are going to do that?
  • People - in the Wikipedia
  • Politics - in the Wikipedia
  • Humanity - in the Wikipedia 
  • Humankind ?
  • Human Beings ?
  • Mankind - now politically incorrect term s/b like the 4th bullet
  • Humankind is ALL people not just some of them
  • i.e. groups
  • with no political aspect?
That being said I respect, appreciate, acknowledge & applaud
  • your apparent noble effort to bring your vision to the forefront of life?
  • hopefully in reality & not just the abstract as so many have done in the past
  • I have a similar goal I call (θιρθ) a community in people
  • people doing "the right thing" without haggling about what that is
  • the preposition in seems more interesting than of -- more later
  • I think the term LIFE may be a term pertinent to our discussion
  • After all is it not life quality that concerns human kind and her evolution, eh?
  • less conflict more cooperation?
  • less struggle & more ecstacy in living
  • more moreness less lessness
  • abundance of goodness not badness
  • etc.

Seth says
...
  1. i like the word "humanity" to refer to all of us.
  2. we form diverse cultures and groups
  3. even competing political partisan groups
  4. i don't want to discuss partisan groups with you in this context
  5. because it is too hard for us to to avoid rwg when we discuss them
  6. and i don't want that kind of rwg to distract us from other useful discussions of human group dynamics, for ...
  7. political groups are a small part of all the dynamics of the grouping of humanity

...

  1. "noble effort to bring your vision to the forefront of life" is a grandiose description of this project that i am trying to do
  2. i would rather describe it simply as trying to write a book ... or
  3. to tell a story
  4. i am trying to invent the story to tell primarily now in dialogue here
  5. it has evolved a lot since i started talking about it
  6. so it is a moving target ... watch out for that
  7. and thanks for your help
  8. sometimes it feels like your thoughts are the water against which this story is telling itself
  9. like salmon swimming up stream to spawn
  10. i too like LIFE ... that is what we are doing ...
  11. parts of speech notwithstanding

...

  1. a community in which people just do the right thing
  2. without hesitation
  3. is a brilliant conception
  4. might actually be easier to do as a community than as a single individual
  5. would it be isolated from the rest of humanity?



Mark de LA says
  • I need to say this for the last time grouping seems to be antithetical to encompassing & empathizing - maybe contrary to epathinking
  • since θιρθ is a vision from PJ2 days after a dream after a Peyote Trip it is mere inspiration that has stayed with me for all these days
  • it is open to anyone who can do the right thing without haggling
  • mostly golden rule stuff
  • postulated on the idea that most people know what the right thing is because they have consciences & access to the heart chakra
  • more later here currently private & fast evolving

Mark de LA says
seth 2014-01-30 09:15:05 17046
  1. the whole point is that groups are not antithetical to empathizing
  2. they are ... er, why we must empathize
  3. take away (er wish away) the groups and that which separates members of humanity and there would be no need to empathize

...

  1. yes groups are antithetical to encompassing
  2. by definition, analytically and logically
  3. but do you really see homogeneity and all of humanity dancing to the same tune as beauty?
  4. perhaps strangely enough to you, i do not
  • I can see humanity dancing to the tune of the Golden Rule
  • those who don't dance may indeed evolve somewhere else on the tree of life

Mark de LA says
  • T began to talk like Bozo this morning
  • She said after I had asked her to not make me wrong for asking when she had to be to work so I could fix her breakfast on time
  • .. I like to get the freshest info on that each morning
  • said later that perhaps she was not making me wrong, but
  • that I was just having the feeling of being wrong after she said what she said
  • my interpretaition was at fault & not what she said or intended
  • in which case it seemed to me that the NLP dictum
  • "the meaning of your communication is the response you get" ...
  • got thrown out the window
  • or maybe I was wrong in interpreting what she said
  • or ...?

Mark de LA says
seth 2014-01-30 10:01:16 17046

  1. perhaps what i do is allow separation
  2. even trip on how it expands growth.
  3. perhaps what you do is to oppose separation
  4. to breathe in ... which is probably not an adequate term for it ... but the best one that crops up in my mind
  5. another one might be restraint of growth
  6. another might be devolve
  7. it is certainly an essential element of our humanity
  8. can you expand on your emotional thrust there?
  • maybe so
  • I will think about it later

Mark de LA says
seth 2014-01-30 09:43:09 17046
source: mark
  • I can see humanity dancing to the tune of the Golden Rule
  • those who don't dance may indeed evolve somewhere else on the tree of life
...
  1. i see the Golden Rule as empathy ... just kind of different parts of speech
  2. unfortunately or fortunately,
  3. as you know, 
  4. we all do not do the same thing.
  5. that is pretty much a fact of our predicament
  6. that is part of the beast that we all comprise
  7. me, i will not deny that fact
  8. nor separate it from my story.
  9. but, hey ... i trip on you imagining it to change and be otherwise

  • notice how easy it is for separation thinking to come up in discourse from you
  • both are nouns
  • but, hey ...

Mark de LA says
T&I will have to talk about that in the evening after she gets home or on the weekend which begins tonight. We had made an agreement not to bring up "playing the rwg" for a month as distinct from actually playing it.


Mark de LA says
In a seminar with Richard Bandler we did a totally body language /stimulus response exercise in which we began to read the other's minds by mirroring their body language fairly accurately.


Mark de LA says
seth 2014-01-30 11:20:01 17046
M1g0r 2014-01-30 10:17:39 17046
  • T began to talk like Bozo this morning
  • She said after I had asked her to not make me wrong for asking when she had to be to work so I could fix her breakfast on time
  • .. I like to get the freshest info on that each morning
  • said later that perhaps she was not making me wrong, but
  • that I was just having the feeling of being wrong after she said what she said
  • my interpretaition was at fault & not what she said or intended
  • in which case it seemed to me that the NLP dictum
  • "the meaning of your communication is the response you get" ...
  • got thrown out the window
  • or maybe I was wrong in interpreting what she said
  • or ...?

...
  1. sounds to me you mis-interperted her intended meaning
  2. i think there are almost always two meaning in any communication
  3. the intended meaning of the author
  4. the guessed meaning of the listener
  5. so to me the NLP dictum is incomplete
  6. then too we should distinguish between "content meaning" and dialogue meaning
  7. i'm not sure of the term "content meaning" ... as i don't remember hearing that term used in in the literature of the subject
  8. so then perhaps we can rewrite the dictum and make it even clearer
  9. "the dialogue meaning to you of your communication is the response you get"--Bozo 2014
  10. it might be fun to honestly analyze a communication between us, ruling out secondary rwg of course
The challenge is less all that than the other communication components:
  • words/grammar 7%
  • tonality 38%
  • posture/body language/facial expression 55%
  • disputed here as a myth
  • nevertheless demonstated in a class I was in with Michael Hadley although the percentages may have been different
  • the familiarity of the people in communication has something to do with it
  • the "listening" of the participants has something to do with it
  • written dialogue versus face2face
  • etc.

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