thought

source: mark
I think Seth discovered otherness at the same time he discovered his ego.
... an interesting conjecture indeed.

I don't think it it possible to discover (recognize) any thing, without also recognizing what it is not.  But of course that is a grand generalization.  Specifically they don't necessarily happen at the same time .  For example i recognized otherness back in the 70's when i was playing myself out of a nut house.  My ego, well i'm not so very sure i have even recognized it yet, for everything others tell me about it seems not to be true inside me .  Maybe that grand recognition has yet to emerge .

Tags

  1. outside humanity
  2. ego
  3. otherness

Comments


M1g0r says
Ontologically speaking it is a multi-level thingy - this ego. We'll leave the higher-ego vs lower-ego to those that give a shit about such things.
Before popping out of the womb, a baby's World is completely undistinguished, presumably in a state of oneness with no otherness.  Thrown into an external world of many stimulae quite different it, clinging to its mother - mother clinging to it may give the impression of other when it gets hungry for a tit. Still no otherness - just other.  At that point it is guessed  that it develops an "other is for me" as the tit arrives on time. Later separation gets greater as it learns to cry to provoke the arrival of tit & life begins. I suspect that the baby has no language yet until an experience arrives which causes "other is NOT for me" feelings & provokes the crying & there is no response soon. 
At some point language arrives & others show up to play. I suspect that even then it has no sense of "I" ; perhaps just responding to a name & the stimulae that it provokes. Sometime later a normal child will get the "I" phenomena independent of it's name & then the vast quantity of otherness happens. I say the two are connected at that point. I am & other shit (not me) is as well.
<= otherness symbol?
the vast otherness playground =>


Seth says
source: mark
Another name for otherness might be an objective world context.
... that kind of describes the logical point of view of my otherness.

thing is my-otherness-feeling-awareness (mofa) tries not to be just an intellectual description.  it is an attitude.  it's difficult to talk about intellectually because i am not aware of that which is otherness ... best i get is just hints, then the otherness feeling goes away.  my knowing and believing and respecting that some other thing exists is what i am talking about.  obviously it applies more to people than inanimate objects ... but i can also feel it towards groups too. the closest English word for it might be "empathy" ... but empathy implies that i am feeling what the other is feeling ... with myofa i know that i know nothing of what the other is feeling.  it is about their inside not their objective outside or what i can perceive about that.   it may just be my thingey ... i haven't read about it in the literature yet ... but it is probably there somewhere.

ill try to get to your other comments later perhaps even tomorrow morning.

M1g0r says
M1g0r 2014-02-02 09:48:02 17057
Another name for otherness might be an objective world context.
Other just means the second from ancient etymology. (*) a facet discoverable as one divides into two, etc.



Seth says
source: mark
before popping out of the womb, a baby's World is completely undistinguished, presumably in a state of oneness with no otherness.  Thrown into an external world of many stimulae quite different it, clinging to its mother - mother clinging to it may give the impression of other when it gets hungry for a tit. Still no otherness - just other.  At that point it is guessed  that it develops an "other is for me" as the tit arrives on time. Later separation gets greater as it learns to cry to provoke the arrival of tit & life begins. I suspect that the baby has no language yet until an experience arrives which causes "other is NOT for me" feelings & provokes the crying & there is no response soon. 
At some point language arrives & others show up to play. I suspect that even then it has no sense of "I" ; perhaps just responding to a name & the stimulae that it provokes. Sometime later a normal child will get the "I" phenomena independent of it's name & then the vast quantity of otherness happens. I say the two are connected at that point. I am & other shit (not me) is as well.
  • i see your point.  a feeling (awareness) of self and a corresponding feeling (awareness) of other probably do develop together.
  1. i think my self awareness developed around age 7 .. and yes i know RS says that was suppose to be 21 ... but at 21 nothing like he described changed in me.  like i said before, nothing people have told me about my self matches my experience. 
  2. mofa .. er, just call it my awareness of otherness ... seems to develop when i was playing myself out of Napa state hospital and later in the separation from P2.  
  3. i really do think there is a whole lot of variability in how these awarenesses develop in different people.   i hesitate to generalize here at all.  though, every other guru and psychologist thinks that they can.
  4. i would be interested in how and when your own awareness of self and others developed, should you want to tell me what you know of that.

Seth says
source: mark
We'll leave the higher-ego vs lower-ego to those that give a shit about such things.
... well i care about such.  i don't want to exclude that from consideration here.


but leaving out what might be gleaned from clairvoyance, logically i think it is reasonable to suppose that my higher-ego is the ego of humanity ... or at least a specific part of that. 

something to think about, eh?

M1g0r says
  • I suspect that the RS ? 21 years old full descent of the Ego into the body varies with individuals AND may have been a ruse to awaken such earlier although I think it is good to postpone some of that to leave some of childhood still in the artistic, less crisp world of the spiritual & mother nature - senses free to develop in all domains.

M1g0r says
  • Gathering, imho (which is neither), stuff into a WE of Humanity ignores the fact that ALL of humanity does not participate in the event, product, egg you might have eaten this morning. Those in the space station didn't participate in my first piss this AM. You can't blame/credit humanity for all the media input to your brain as you went to bed last night. That is what I have been calling a munge.
  • I still prefer ordinary words so I don't have to go back & re-read lost items & comments to figure out what you are saying.  Then again this is your item & your expression to yourself, eh?
  • I could equally have called the picture a mnemonic. I did have that picture in my apartment on a poster sometime during the same period. The real experience was well beyond anything that picture communicates as is.
  • Otherness is simply what you are not - where you draw the line of personal consciousness can be a matter of debate within you
  • Other beings & people are simply other beings, other people, etc.
  • In the context of an objective universe, not something you have to think about really, there is self consciousness & everything else - the latter differentiated according to yourself & agreement with many others via language & communication. So what?
  • One might have fun drawing circles around various parts of the objective world - I, self, consciousness, me, truth, what's so, others (after answering the question "Who am I" PR gave me the next question "What is another?" to play with); things, stuff, beings ... to Infinity.
  • The nice thing about minds is that they are capable of holding that which is false within them as an engineer or programmer does sometimes to create a product or program. Iwould be careful limiting truth to what is in your mind.



Seth says
M1g0r 2014-02-03 08:02:42 17057
My earliest memory is around 4 although the house we grew up provided lots of stuff to remember - just not dated ... the WWII war, sleeping with GW presumably when you were being born, blackout curtains, etc.  I spilled some india ink on my legs, I think I had long underwear on & got ink on it.  V took me into the bathroom tub & washed it off my leg. I had the feeling of having done something bad or wrong.  I had been exploring the dark book case in the front room near the floor lamp by GW's normal perch. There was an old Hallicrafter short wave & long wave radio next to his hexagon desk which I still use & have today.
I think around 6 - GW asked me to try to imagine that I did not exist (or a world without me) & I couldn't do it. He was in the front room & I was in our bedroom .Such was my first hint of "I" the way I have it now, even though I had been using the word for a long time before that. The 21 year old experience never happened for me either. Such seems to be a spectrum which came to a crisp peak during PR's contemplation intensives.  It had been with me for a long time (years) & yet I hadn't made anything of it until then. Like a reverse of the old zen accounts of enlightenment when the master slaps the novitiate upside the head, I wanted to do that to Peter instead for having wasted all that time for something as trivial as the "answer" turned out to be.
Hope this helps answere some of yours.


yes it helps ... thanks !  its very interesting, i'll come back to it again.

i don't have any memories of wwII at all, nor any memories of GW giving me psychological exercises.  he gave me a book on magic to read, i knew he was telling me something.  when i got a bit childish in drawing goast parts he strongly discouraged me and later when i was trying to delve into the cube deeper than the curriculum he discouraged that as well.  i did get a very strong "no don't go there" message from him ... that doesn't seem to bother you ... but it did bother me, lol.  i'm kinda of glad you didn't get an age 21 experience ... for a long time i felt i was missing out .

M1g0r says
My earliest memory is around 4 although the house we grew up provided lots of stuff to remember - just not dated ... the WWII war, sleeping with GW presumably when you were being born, blackout curtains, etc.  I spilled some india ink on my legs, I think I had long underwear on & got ink on it.  V took me into the bathroom tub & washed it off my leg. I had the feeling of having done something bad or wrong.  I had been exploring the dark book case in the front room near the floor lamp by GW's normal perch. There was an old Hallicrafter short wave & long wave radio next to his hexagon desk which I still use & have today.
I think around 6 - GW asked me to try to imagine that I did not exist (or a world without me) & I couldn't do it. He was in the front room & I was in our bedroom .Such was my first hint of "I" the way I have it now, even though I had been using the word for a long time before that. The 21 year old experience never happened for me either. Such seems to be a spectrum which came to a crisp peak during PR's contemplation intensives.  It had been with me for a long time (years) & yet I hadn't made anything of it until then. Like a reverse of the old zen accounts of enlightenment when the master slaps the novitiate upside the head, I wanted to do that to Peter instead for having wasted all that time for something as trivial as the "answer" turned out to be.
Hope this helps answere some of yours.


Seth says
M1g0r 2014-02-03 07:45:32 17057
seth 2014-02-03 07:11:09 17057
it's interesting to note just how very much of that which i come into contact and interact with in my life is created by humanity.  right now as i recline in my bed next to my wife with my laptop on my lap and the TV running on and on about the olympics it is virtually everything.  let's guess, just off the top of my head, 99.9 % of it. 

alternatively i do look at the stars and the moon and the sun and occasionally track a planet across the night sky ... and i watch the weather and i walk in the woods and can see some of the nature that my city allows to remain.
  • i said that to say humanity is not just a little bit introverted. 
  • this picture is a bit out of date and pictures an otherness that is hard to engage within my current life within its culture.  
  • although i feel that i should.
This picture is a symbol, fairly accurate, of a direct experience I had when I got really stoned on pot decades ago. I found myself in a world where everywhere I focused my attention there were spinning wheels inside wheels inside wheels .. etc. Truly a vast , so vast, nothing at all mattered & all I wanted to do was fuck Charlene & tell her about it.  She, of course, thought I was just stoned which was true. Yet, things like fractals etc are a hint of the experience even today.
I doubt that you are applying the concept humanity except as poetic license.  Other stuff is just created by other people ... TV, Internet postings ... whatever.  Humanity altogether is more of an infinite concept at best...  maybe your leviathan .. still a poetic license with an extensive property of Being - a collaboration of lots of people conspiring to produce your moments - maybe not.  I don't grok the distinction of your mofa .. I prefer using regular words which eliminate the munge character of communication.


  • things i mentioned either were (tv, laptop, internet, etc) or were not (stars, sun, weather, nature) humanity.  it seems to me that in pointing to that which is and that which is not human i am totally applying the concept humanity.  i don't get how i could point otherwise.
  • yes, certainly "humanity is a collaboration o lots of people conspiring to produce my moments"... what it is not is stars, sun, weather, and other nature ... though, of course, it came from that.
  • i mentioned "mofa" just so you would realize that i am using the term "otherness" to refer to my attitude towards that which i am not rather than some logical ven definition of "not me".  if it's all right with you i can just go back to using "otherness" as now you should know what i mean. 
  • that is similar to the way i use  the word "truth" to refer to how i feel about some thing in my mind ... so i can use the word "otherness" to refer to how i feel about something that is NOT in my mind.  
  1. i like your wallaby symbolized by the picture
  2. i take it you had to be there, which i was not, so it is otherness to me
  3. things do though pop out in your language ... surprises ... edges of your otherness glympsing across ... i got one when i read how you said "This picture is a symbol" ... i, of course, would have said it differently.

M1g0r says

Seth says
i meant "your own familiar mind" ... the spell checker notwistanding

M1g0r says
seth 2014-02-03 10:24:36 17057
M1g0r 2014-02-03 09:12:28 17057

  • Otherness is simply what you are not - where you draw the line of personal consciousness can be a matter of debate within you
  • Other beings & people are simply other beings, other people, etc.
  • In the context of an objective universe, not something you have to think about really, there is self consciousness & everything else - the latter differentiated according to yourself & agreement with many others via language & communication. So what?

  1. we do use this language to communicate ... from what to you must be an alien mind  to your own failure one ... and of course visa verse.  
  2. problem is this language where it has fixed definitions that would always be adhered to is inadequate to embody some of our new thoughts.  
  3. hence we make up new terms and new usages of old ones.
  4. that is not just me, anybody else who is trying to communicate new subtle things that they are working on and want to project out to others is doing the exact same thing
  5. so that when you insist that my otherness means what is in the dictionary and not how i have painstakingly and detailedly described to you ... it totally irks me ... and i can only take it as a refusal on your part to hear what i am saying.
  • so that when you insist that my otherness means what is in the dictionary and not how i have painstakingly and detailedly described to you ... it totally irks me ... and i can only take it as a refusal on your part to hear what i am saying.
    • only if you had something new to say - so far your failure to exhibit such prolly is just a selfie invention of words to mitigate such  failure (M1g0r)
    • prolly related to problems with authority
    • maybe related to your admitted unclarity on the subject

As an exercise try to see if d"A or another of your groupies can explain in English the distinction you seem to be making without quoting any of my material, please!



Seth says
M1g0r 2014-02-03 09:12:28 17057

  • Otherness is simply what you are not - where you draw the line of personal consciousness can be a matter of debate within you
  • Other beings & people are simply other beings, other people, etc.
  • In the context of an objective universe, not something you have to think about really, there is self consciousness & everything else - the latter differentiated according to yourself & agreement with many others via language & communication. So what?

  1. we do use this language to communicate ... from what to you must be an alien mind  to your own failure one ... and of course visa verse.  
  2. problem is this language where it has fixed definitions that would always be adhered to is inadequate to embody some of our new thoughts.  
  3. hence we make up new terms and new usages of old ones.
  4. that is not just me, anybody else who is trying to communicate new subtle things that they are working on and want to project out to others is doing the exact same thing
  5. so that when you insist that my otherness means what is in the dictionary and not how i have painstakingly and detailedly described to you ... it totally irks me ... and i can only take it as a refusal on your part to hear what i am saying.

Seth says
M1g0r 2014-02-03 11:00:38 17057
seth 2014-02-03 10:24:36 17057
M1g0r 2014-02-03 09:12:28 17057

  • Otherness is simply what you are not - where you draw the line of personal consciousness can be a matter of debate within you
  • Other beings & people are simply other beings, other people, etc.
  • In the context of an objective universe, not something you have to think about really, there is self consciousness & everything else - the latter differentiated according to yourself & agreement with many others via language & communication. So what?

  1. we do use this language to communicate ... from what to you must be an alien mind  to your own failure one ... and of course visa verse.  
  2. problem is this language where it has fixed definitions that would always be adhered to is inadequate to embody some of our new thoughts.  
  3. hence we make up new terms and new usages of old ones.
  4. that is not just me, anybody else who is trying to communicate new subtle things that they are working on and want to project out to others is doing the exact same thing
  5. so that when you insist that my otherness means what is in the dictionary and not how i have painstakingly and detailedly described to you ... it totally irks me ... and i can only take it as a refusal on your part to hear what i am saying.
  • so that when you insist that my otherness means what is in the dictionary and not how i have painstakingly and detailedly described to you ... it totally irks me ... and i can only take it as a refusal on your part to hear what i am saying.
    • only if you had something new to say - so far your failure to exhibit such prolly is just a selfie invention of words to mitigate such  failure (M1g0r)
    • prolly related to problems with authority
    • maybe related to your admitted unclarity on the subject

As an exercise try to see if d"A or another of your groupies can explain in English the distinction you seem to be making without quoting any of my material, please!


yep, it is a refusal on your part to hear what i am saying.  you seem to have just  acknowledged that to me.

and thing is it does not really matter to me whether it is new to you ... or to the world ... i would not say it as if it were new to me unless it was ... you are just going to have to trust me on that one.

i rather think that nathan is another person who will not really comprehend my otherness ... just because of his peculiar attitudes towards the world. 

what you describe as "my problems with authority" is very real ... yet i will not describe them as problems ... rather as me not accepting all the lies and confusions of the past.  in many cases i feel that the emperor really has no clothes on ... and i have the courage to say so ... your loyal obedience notwithstanding .  many gurus, especially Krishnamurti, whom i have personally heard say substantially the same thing, will, me thinks, support me there.

  • maybe related to your admitted unclarity on the subject
... well yes certainly so.  this is a vague nebulous thingey in the process of genesis.  talking it out in language helps a lot to make it more tangible ... but it is a work in progress ... a moving target ... and must needs be so.



Seth says
M1g0r 2014-02-03 11:55:47 17057
  • Yep, I'll wait until you get it clear in your mind
  • Your rwg going full blast can't comprehend that you are not making much sense with your explanations or they are just trivial
  • I suppose you reject trying out your theory on anyone else too!
  • that way you will be right for a very long while
  • sigh!
well clearly it is not making much sense to you.  perhaps that is because you keep twisting it to mean something that an honest reading of the descriptions themselves do not say or imply. if really do intend to comprehend it like it is over here, regardless of whether it doesn't feel true inside you, you might just try not twisting it to be something that it is not ... for example presuming i am just trying to be right here and holding you wrong. 

i suppose when it is ready i will rub it more widely against the world ... or not.  i really don't have an agenda or intention to change people's minds especially nathan's nor even yours for that matter. 

strangely enough my views on truth are much more aligned to mainstream epistemology than are to yours (references can be supplied) ... so dialogue with that faction would end up with just academic type friction rather than any real rub.  others who might think about this stuff are not really interested in delving into it beyond the popular memes.  what i am saying about otherness is perhaps a bit further afield ... yet, me thinks, is evolving to become just as very pertinent as is relative personal experience based truth.  which i hasten to add is the only thing we honestly have.

but, no i do not reject the idea of dialogue re this shit with others ... all that needs to happen is for the occasion to actually arise and i will be there.

i already know you will put just as much energy into comprehending and helping evolve this as your actually will ... there is no real purpose served to repeat that again.

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