Insides and Outsides

We cannot feel what others feel.  We cannot feel what they feel like inside when we touch them. 

But we can make an experiment with our own body where one part of it touches another part. 

We have access to how both views of that same event  feel like from inside & from outside. 

It is interesting to count the different sensations and how they are so very different.

Try changing which you move ... your finger, or your palm. Try touching different symmetrical and asymmetrical parts of your body.  How do they perceive the other differently? Try it with two adjacent fingers of the same hand. 

Now try touching some other person. Ask how it feels to them.   Try one of the same sex.  Try one of a different sex.   Try touching different parts of their  bodies.  Try touching different parts of their mind.  Try a friend.  Try a stranger.  Try and enemy.  Try a love one.   Try it when you fight.  Try it when you make love.  Try it on a republican.  Try it on a democrat, a conservative, and a liberal.  Try it on a child.   Try it on a baby.  Try it on an old man, and an old lady.  Try it on a black, on a white, a Mexican, or an Asain.  Try it on a rich man, try it on a poor man.  Try it on a Muslim, a Christan, a Buddist and a Jew.  Don't forget to listen for their response.  Try it on a mensch ... try it on an asshole ...

This should prove that experiencing the same event from inside it, feels different than experiencing that same event from outside it.  

Viva la difference:  insides and outsides.

Tags

  1. otherness
  2. touching
  3. insides
  4. walls
  5. outsides
  6. touch

Comments


M1g0r says
seth 2014-02-18 07:22:12 17096
M1g0r 2014-02-17 23:56:02 17096
seth 2014-02-17 17:45:46 17096
yep.

interesting how CFR's ngo includes in inside both ME and WE.   so we can talk of inside we.  i wonder how one could demonstrate that just as much as this demonstrates inside me and outside me.  psychologically it of course is easy to feel whether you are an insider to a group or not.  physically, maybe, not so very.
yeah totally, wiggle room up the yin yang .  

i guess you can figure out what i would say, so i won't say it .

incidentally, do you have a English to Ming, i forget.  otherwise i fear this is going to be a read only experience over here.
I use the concordance mostly; mentioned on icybermind.net .  The concordance works best on Firefox.  I am working on another based upon the ming translation of the book chameleon verses.  Occasionally I have to use a thesaurus to fine tune English to Ming. Sometimes I use actual Chinese dictionaries & etomology websites when all I have is the character .. etc.


M1g0r says
M1g0r 2014-02-18 07:46:39 17096
source: ... incidentally, do you have a English to Ming, i forget.  otherwise i fear this is going to be a read only experience over here.
... I originally began using Ming as it corresponded to your using English with your own meanings behind it.  It is a lot of fun though. If one does it a lot it is like reverse etymology.



Seth says
M1g0r 2014-02-17 23:56:02 17096
seth 2014-02-17 17:45:46 17096
yep.

interesting how CFR's ngo includes in inside both ME and WE.   so we can talk of inside we.  i wonder how one could demonstrate that just as much as this demonstrates inside me and outside me.  psychologically it of course is easy to feel whether you are an insider to a group or not.  physically, maybe, not so very.
yeah totally, wiggle room up the yin yang .  

i guess you can figure out what i would say, so i won't say it .

incidentally, do you have a English to Ming, i forget.  otherwise i fear this is going to be a read only experience over here.

Seth says
M1g0r 2014-02-17 23:58:00 17096
seth 2014-02-17 17:56:03 17096
Note there are 4 experience you have prevey to each time you touch your finger to your palm ...
  1. how the palm feels the touch from inside
  2. how the finger feels the outside or the palm
  3. how the finger feels the touch from inside
  4. how the palm feels the finger touching it

Now i suppose a Buddha would feel just one experience

Maybe, can't say yet.

M1g0r says
... or you could get it close to bozo by reversing the sequence of words, meh?

Seth says
M1g0r 2014-02-18 07:47:43 17096
M1g0r 2014-02-18 07:46:39 17096
source: ... incidentally, do you have a English to Ming, i forget.  otherwise i fear this is going to be a read only experience over here.
... I originally began using Ming as it corresponded to your using English with your own meanings behind it.  It is a lot of fun though. If one does it a lot it is like reverse etymology.



You misinterpert my use of english here.  I do not use English with my own meanings behind it like a secret private language.  There really is a very important distinction here.  Each and every single usage i make of a English word, or phrase, I have chosen to mean just exactly what i have heard it mean in the literature of our culture.  Where that does not happen, it is a mistake, not a intention.  The words and phrases i make up are just those ones that i have yet to find already out there.  I think that is the way English has evolved to work, though you won't be hearing that from an English teacher.

And, yes, i agree, Ming is great for a language with private meanings.  That was one place where i went wiggy woggy woo relative to GW's work.  Yet i do kind of see the value in putting all of the interpreting of a message on the shoulders of the listener ... or perhaps just talking to yourself ... perhaps there is enlightenment there ... i don't know ... didn't work for me ... if it works for you, you're gonna have to teach it to me.

Seth says
M1g0r 2014-02-18 08:07:36 17096
... or you could get it close to bozo by reversing the sequence of words, meh?
not even close

M1g0r says
seth 2014-02-18 08:50:45 17096
M1g0r 2014-02-18 08:07:36 17096
... or you could get it close to bozo by reversing the sequence of words, meh?
not even close

M1g0r says
seth 2014-02-18 08:50:19 17096
M1g0r 2014-02-18 07:47:43 17096
M1g0r 2014-02-18 07:46:39 17096
source: ... incidentally, do you have a English to Ming, i forget.  otherwise i fear this is going to be a read only experience over here.
... I originally began using Ming as it corresponded to your using English with your own meanings behind it.  It is a lot of fun though. If one does it a lot it is like reverse etymology.



You misinterpert my use of english here.  I do not use English with my own meanings behind it like a secret private language.  There really is a very important distinction here.  Each and every single usage i make of a English word, or phrase, I have chosen to mean just exactly what i have heard it mean in the literature of our culture.  Where that does not happen, it is a mistake, not a intention.  The words and phrases i make up are just those ones that i have yet to find already out there.  I think that is the way English has evolved to work, though you won't be hearing that from an English teacher.

And, yes, i agree, Ming is great for a language with private meanings.  That was one place where i went wiggy woggy woo relative to GW's work.  Yet i do kind of see the value in putting all of the interpreting of a message on the shoulders of the listener ... or perhaps just talking to yourself ... perhaps there is enlightenment there ... i don't know ... didn't work for me ... if it works for you, you're gonna have to teach it to me.
I think otherness began when Bozo invented NOT GW! Your meanings of English are often at odds with the dictionary & etymology of words, but why would otherness care?
Idea behind Ming has been published - not purpose of secrecy but ultimately to get all the explanation of projective geometry on the same page for one drawing.

M1g0r says
The wiggle room in Ming is just about the same wiggle room in Classic Chinese; not the wiggle room of Classic Bozometry.  See or try to translate other here.  Follow the etymology or go to this site with the character.
Which is lun there being only ~ 1100 words in Ming.
Here I am using Bozometry as the otherness context for Otherness.
<== (perhaps this symbol still applies)

Seth says
source: mark
Bozo strengthened & discovered his own Ego & simultaneously everything else showed up.
... .  I think there is a lot of truth to that

Thanks for noticing .

Do you think that is a bad thing?

I mean awareness and all ... that's a good thing ... no?

M1g0r says
seth 2014-02-18 11:59:24 17096
source: mark
Bozo strengthened & discovered his own Ego & simultaneously everything else showed up.
... .  I think there is a lot of truth to that

Thanks for noticing .

Do you think that is a bad thing?

I mean awareness and all ... that's a good thing ... no?
It is fine as long as you realize, really realize,  that you are e pluribus unum in that regard with everyone else. Your ideas, definitions, special meanings can't hold sway for me anymore than the dictionary & my own experience.  Sometimes I point out our differences, but they hold little sway for you. Maybe we are both wasting time here.


M1g0r says
Strangely enough the finger analogy is how I explained T & My wedding voes - the closeness of intimacy part.

For the sake of the sweetness of intimacy …

For We who are so brave & dare to join so close

      as to lose  ourselves in  ONE being …

...(& discover the whole universe in each other) ...

For this sacrament & the gift of LOVE

                        spoken by God who said :

“Where 2 or more are gathered in my name there I AM!”

We  pledge our bodies, souls & spirits - our lives

 & sacred fortunes to Each other in this marriage !!



Seth says
seth 2014-02-20 07:44:04 17103
M1g0r 2014-02-20 00:45:08 17103
seth 2014-02-19 20:32:40 17103
M1g0r 2014-02-19 19:17:07 17103
I think there are only 2 experiences when there are two finger doing it on the same person. There is only one observer.


Well can you not count all 4 experiences that i identified here at "2014-02-17 17:56:03"? 

I think is one observer who has access to all 4 experiences.  All 4 experiences are public to that observer.

Where there is one person touching another, that same observer has access to only 2.
Describe exactly what it feels like for you .. exactly what the submodalities such as pressure, warmth & where you are in the attention which you call the experience. For each of the 4 ways.  I say on repeated trys that 2 are redundant.  In my case I am in all the experience & it is a matter of focus.

Interesting, i think i see what you mean, good catch .

I want to simplify the exercise: trying just one finger touching some inanimate object.  The question then is there one or two experiences: 1) the surface being felt, and/or 2) what the finger feels inside by touching it.  When i examine that i must admit that i have not been able to experience simultaneous both the surface and being touched and how the finger feels inside by touching it.   Rather it seems like i can only feel one or the other depending, like you say, on what i am focusing upon.  It is like the gestalt here where you either see the faces or the vase, but not both. 

So does that description better match your experience?

Incidentally some places on the body are radically different in this regard that others.  For example, the finger tips almost always feel the surface being touched ... the pecker head how it feels inside being touched. 
...

M1g0r says
  • Well, I'm going to leave the pecker head out of it as it is a rather sticky experiment.
  • I think touch & maybe other senses have no inside or outside.
  • My attention can move around for point of view
  • I touch the keyboard.
  • I can feel the hardness of the keys as I type.
  • I can feel the inside of my fingers a component of the 4-fold now
  • I can move my attention back & forth
  • There is little difference between the surface of my fingers & the inside of my fingers - it is all touching
  • touch is pressure - sometimes warmth, sometimes sharpness, sometimes pain if I have a cut on my fingers ... etc


Seth says
M1g0r 2014-02-20 08:05:37 17096
  • Well, I'm going to leave the pecker head out of it as it is a rather sticky experiment.
  • I think touch & maybe other senses have no inside or outside.
  • My attention can move around for point of view
  • I touch the keyboard.
  • I can feel the hardness of the keys as I type.
  • I can feel the inside of my fingers a component of the 4-fold now
  • I can move my attention back & forth
  • There is little difference between the surface of my fingers & the inside of my fingers - it is all touching
  • touch is pressure - sometimes warmth, sometimes sharpness, sometimes pain if I have a cut on my fingers ... etc

  1. ...
  2. talking of this phenomena as inside/outside is a metaphor ... all aspects of the model will not apply to phenomena.
  3. ... absolutely.  you discovered that it not two different experiences, rather it is just a change of focus.
  4. ...
  5. ...
  6. feeling the inside of the finger even when it is not touching anything except the heat of the air might be another phenomena entirely ... or not.  note that if the finger is infected, the touch will yield pain *inside* the finger.
  7. there is a grand difference between the surface of your finger and the inside of your finger.  for one thing, i can experience the surface of your finger by touching it, just like you can ... the inside of your finger i can not.
  8. thanks for the link to the neuroscience of the situation
  9. ..
  10. ok,  i don't know of any thing else to delve into.

My point here is that there are two different points of view our awareness can take on our sense experiences.  For the sake of reference i have called one point of view from the "inside" and the other from the "outside". 



M1g0r says
seth 2014-02-20 09:49:11 17096
M1g0r 2014-02-20 08:05:37 17096
  • Well, I'm going to leave the pecker head out of it as it is a rather sticky experiment.
  • I think touch & maybe other senses have no inside or outside.
  • My attention can move around for point of view
  • I touch the keyboard.
  • I can feel the hardness of the keys as I type.
  • I can feel the inside of my fingers a component of the 4-fold now
  • I can move my attention back & forth
  • There is little difference between the surface of my fingers & the inside of my fingers - it is all touching
  • touch is pressure - sometimes warmth, sometimes sharpness, sometimes pain if I have a cut on my fingers ... etc

  1. ...
  2. talking of this phenomena as inside/outside is a metaphor ... all aspects of the model will not apply to phenomena.
  3. ... absolutely.  you discovered that it not two different experiences, rather it is just a change of focus.
  4. ...
  5. ...
  6. feeling the inside of the finger even when it is not touching anything except the heat of the air might be another phenomena entirely ... or not.  note that if the finger is infected, the touch will yield pain *inside* the finger.
  7. there is a grand difference between the surface of your finger and the inside of your finger.  for one thing, i can experience the surface of your finger by touching it, just like you can ... the inside of your finger i can not.
  8. thanks for the link to the neuroscience of the situation
  9. ..
  10. ok,  i don't know of any thing else to delve into.

My point here is that there are two different points of view our awareness can take on our sense experiences.  For the sake of reference i have called one point of view from the "inside" and the other from the "outside". 


Be careful what you then generalize & extend your metaphor about the prepositions (inside/outside) to include.



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