Normalization for bitcoin

kum
The prime reason that Bitcoin is not currency is that it has to interface with exchanges to get value that people can think in terms.
What if a project produced a normalized , regional, seasonal, social valuation, contextualized matrix such that one could say that relative to a sack of potatoes 10 apples is a good normalized exchange.  etc.
One could also do it for the other domains like health care, drugs. 
Repudiate so-clled markets & exchanges & make a social one. Test it so that hacking, gaming the system to bring it back to $ profits etc won't work.

Tags

  1. money
  2. bitcoin
  3. normalization
  4. value

Comments


Mark de LA says
The challenge is illustrated here: (G+)


Mark de LA says
seth 2014-03-03 08:44:17 17140
What is the difference between that and a commodity exchange?
Fair question.  A commodity exchange is large silos of gold, pork bellies, precious metals, corn, wheat, soybeans.  I am looking just for information so that I can exchange bitcoins for goods & services at the local level without gouing through the $.  I want to bootstrap bitcoin or some other digital currency's  value without going through the pitfall of fiat currency.


Mark de LA says
Einai 2014-03-03 09:21:29 17140
seth 2014-03-03 08:44:17 17140
What is the difference between that and a commodity exchange?
Fair question.  A commodity exchange is large silos of gold, pork bellies, precious metals, corn, wheat, soybeans.  I am looking just for information so that I can exchange bitcoins for goods & services at the local level without gouing through the $.  I want to bootstrap bitcoin or some other digital currency's  value without going through the pitfall of fiat currency.

One could characterize it as bootstrapping barter without money involved. The how to is both complex & simple.  Almost anyone can imagine a barter.
Frankly, I am most interested in ways such could be accomplished.  I am not interested in what it might be similar to nor why it won't work.  My intuition holds it in the context of the next step in divorcing money from government control & the converse.



Mark de LA says
Einai 2014-03-03 09:30:10 17140
Einai 2014-03-03 09:21:29 17140
seth 2014-03-03 08:44:17 17140
What is the difference between that and a commodity exchange?
Fair question.  A commodity exchange is large silos of gold, pork bellies, precious metals, corn, wheat, soybeans.  I am looking just for information so that I can exchange bitcoins for goods & services at the local level without gouing through the $.  I want to bootstrap bitcoin or some other digital currency's  value without going through the pitfall of fiat currency.

One could characterize it as bootstrapping barter without money involved. The how to is both complex & simple.  Almost anyone can imagine a barter.
Frankly, I am most interested in ways such could be accomplished.  I am not interested in what it might be similar to nor why it won't work.  My intuition holds it in the context of the next step in divorcing money from government control & the converse.


Another thingy about exchanges is they are little more than legal gambling with the economy. Currently the administration is behind big money on the Stock Exchanges because it needs big money to finance the next election cycle. Feds pumping money at close to zero percent helps the stock market rise. Cui Bono?


Seth says
source: mark
I am looking just for information so that I can exchange bitcoins for goods & services at the local level without gouing through the $.
... Could you give me a couple specific examples of that actually happening?

Mark de LA says
seth 2014-03-03 11:10:31 17140
source: mark
I am looking just for information so that I can exchange bitcoins for goods & services at the local level without gouing through the $.
... Could you give me a couple specific examples of that actually happening?
It hasn't happened yet - didn't you get the point.  Who knows comparative values without going through the $ ?  A Farmer's Market is closest except they still go through dollars.


Mark de LA says
Dollars have the inflation component of taxes, credit, credit cards, insurance, regulations, advertizement, fraud, federal reserve pumping & easing, national debt & the rest of today's economy (inflation).  True value is difficult to figure out.


Seth says
Einai 2014-03-03 11:27:07 17140
seth 2014-03-03 11:10:31 17140
source: mark
I am looking just for information so that I can exchange bitcoins for goods & services at the local level without gouing through the $.
... Could you give me a couple specific examples of that actually happening?
It hasn't happened yet - didn't you get the point.  Who knows comparative values without going through the $ ?  A Farmer's Market is closest except they still go through dollars.

well i was expecting an example like the following:

i trade my toothless foodie canned foods with local farms for the produce to produce them.  no money would ever be exchanged ... just produce and canned goods.  but values need to be equalized, so we enter into a system the volumes of things acquired and by whom and from whom.  hopefully the rest would be just math ... but at some point human judgement might still be needed to be applied.  in the end the farm may end up with more or less bitcoins in their walled than i have. 

the devil, of course is in the details ... i was hoping that your examples would get us closer to them.

Mark de LA says
seth 2014-03-03 11:36:52 17140
Einai 2014-03-03 11:27:07 17140
seth 2014-03-03 11:10:31 17140
source: mark
I am looking just for information so that I can exchange bitcoins for goods & services at the local level without gouing through the $.
... Could you give me a couple specific examples of that actually happening?
It hasn't happened yet - didn't you get the point.  Who knows comparative values without going through the $ ?  A Farmer's Market is closest except they still go through dollars.

well i was expecting an example like the following:

i trade my toothless foodie canned foods with local farms for the produce to produce them.  no money would ever be exchanged ... just produce and canned goods.  but values need to be equalized, so we enter into a system the volumes of things acquired and by whom and from whom.  hopefully the rest would be just math ... but at some point human judgement might still be needed to be applied.  in the end the farm may end up with more or less bitcoins in their walled than i have. 

the devil, of course is in the details ... i was hoping that your examples would get us closer to them.
This node probably should have been privatized. It is an idea not a working project yet. Thanks for your ideas. The idea of normalization was the point. When comparing things all in the same measure of units one can normalize the distribution by dividing the larger units by the number of units of the smallest & get everything relative to that one.  I have done that with estimated time to complete tasks before. Agile Programming uses other units for estimating a task rather than time. Project reviews at intervals validate the estimates at feedback meetings.  A programmer knows the relative energy to do different tasks which may not be the same as he would put on a time sheet. One could rate the economy in sheets of toilet paper, eh?  In this item I trying to get a unit out of segments of a food chain or some other product supply chains. This is a working conversation or maybe a working monologue.


Seth says
source: mark
When comparing things all in the same measure of units one can normalize the distribution by dividing the larger units by the number of units of the smallest & get everything relative to that one. 
... could you describe this more precisely ? ... with, perhaps, examples.

in a free market relative values are determined by supply and demand.  how are you trying to change that?  ... or are you?



Seth says
Einai 2014-03-03 11:33:17 17140
Dollars have the inflation component of taxes, credit, credit cards, insurance, regulations, advertizement, fraud, federal reserve pumping & easing, national debt & the rest of today's economy (inflation).  True value is difficult to figure out.


thing is any currency is valued against the others ... and bitcoin is no exception.  unfortunately bitcoin is so new and small relative, that mostly its relative value is being determined by speculation. 

i have an adgenda to get approx $100 worth of bitcoins in a wallet, probably from here ... just so that i can experience this thingey first hand. 

Mark de LA says
I may answer some of these questions when I get a .
If you can suggest ways to get the principles to work to divorce the government from the economy or get bitcoins or some other digital currency bootstrapped let me know.


Mark de LA says
seth 2014-03-03 14:29:51 17140
Einai 2014-03-03 14:19:11 17140
seth 2014-03-03 12:14:26 17140
Einai 2014-03-03 11:33:17 17140
Dollars have the inflation component of taxes, credit, credit cards, insurance, regulations, advertizement, fraud, federal reserve pumping & easing, national debt & the rest of today's economy (inflation).  True value is difficult to figure out.


thing is any currency is valued against the others ... and bitcoin is no exception.  unfortunately bitcoin is so new and small relative, that mostly its relative value is being determined by speculation. 

i have an adgenda to get approx $100 worth of bitcoins in a wallet, probably from here ... just so that i can experience this thingey first hand. 
  • I want to remove the idea of making money on money!
  • All exchanges & banks currently do so.
  • Except the banks are now making money on the back of tax payers & the Fed Reserve inflation
  • Microloans & capital used not so much for profit but to manage the voting of good business practices & innovation is the way to go.


yes, certainly, .   making money on money is one of the first things that RS pointed out to me that is wrong with our economy.  i totally believe that. 

i would just like to point out that bitcoin will not be helping that agenda in the near term .
Yeah, instant gratification may need to be postponed.  It is solving the problem which fascinates me, though since I was a child. But then, maybe since I have no children I can say fuck the next generation. I had to go to war. Every generation seems to have at least one good one. We have 4 so far.  We may be entering one now.  After all according to RS the unresolved temptation (5th Gospel) of Christ when he descended into Hell & contronted Ahriman-Lucifer was "turning stones into Bread" i.e. gold into food etc. working for a living?  After all if he didn't solve it & RS didnt & the Nazis & Communists came later with their wars etc. What makes me think I could? Then too, digital currency could all be wiped oout with an EMP weapon.  Revolution is an interesting TV series I have been watching.


Seth says
Einai 2014-03-03 14:19:11 17140
seth 2014-03-03 12:14:26 17140
Einai 2014-03-03 11:33:17 17140
Dollars have the inflation component of taxes, credit, credit cards, insurance, regulations, advertizement, fraud, federal reserve pumping & easing, national debt & the rest of today's economy (inflation).  True value is difficult to figure out.


thing is any currency is valued against the others ... and bitcoin is no exception.  unfortunately bitcoin is so new and small relative, that mostly its relative value is being determined by speculation. 

i have an adgenda to get approx $100 worth of bitcoins in a wallet, probably from here ... just so that i can experience this thingey first hand. 
  • I want to remove the idea of making money on money!
  • All exchanges & banks currently do so.
  • Except the banks are now making money on the back of tax payers & the Fed Reserve inflation
  • Microloans & capital used not so much for profit but to manage the voting of good business practices & innovation is the way to go.


yes, certainly, .   making money on money is one of the first things that RS pointed out to me that is wrong with our economy.  i totally believe that. 

i would just like to point out that bitcoin will not be helping that agenda in the near term .

Mark de LA says
seth 2014-03-04 07:43:28 17140
It seems to me that being human dictates that I find my place and relationship in the human grid or network.  Then I and the grid cooperate to sustain ourselves.  Thankfully  it is, more or less, up to me to determine what values I personally relate to and how i can interact with the human grid to sustain them.  Personally i don't see that in itself as a problem that needs to be fixed ... rather just as a salient feature of being human.

Now, that a large portions of humans may have chosen different values than have i, should, i believe, excite my courage to make my own values more and more those which sustain the grid. 

That of course is a gross gross generalization ... but then so is yours.  Said differently, i don't think we get rid of the gird ... but can work towards evolving it.  For that task, me thinks, small steps involving only our own actions are called for ... not a new grand top down design.  But if you have a gestalt or wallaby there i totally want to get it too .
... as all things are related to all other things in the Universe by virtue of the fact that they are in the Universe too, this comment may be thinly related to the main item or some comment thereafter, but I don't get whatever that relationship is..  Bringing this back down to Earth - we are talking about money, economy, the domain of commerce etc. & perhaps a future to move forward in these areas towards that is in more dynamic balanced than the one in place today. Bitcoin may be bump on that road & maybe not.


Mark de LA says
The Future we create may get us there.(*)

Mark de LA says
Commodity Money - showed up in trying to grok Gresham's Law - a notion probably opposing Fiat Money.


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