Dualities listed


Each of these things called "dualities" here could be considered not two contradictory binary states but rather a spectrum from one to the other.

 domain  +  -
 thought  true  false
 feeling  good  bad / evil
 will  should  shouldn't
 ethics  right  wrong
 sex  (male)  (female)
 identity / separation
 (inside)  (outside)
 behavior
 private  public
 judgement
 credit  blame
 time
 (change/creation)  (habit/tradition)
 time  new  old
 time  sustaining  temporary
 ?  (ideal)  (real)
 consequences ?
 (success)  (fear)
     
 ?  (mind)  (actuality)
 ?    
 aesthetics  beautiful  ugly
 thought/feeling/will  clarity
 confusion (meditation)
 thought / possibilities ?
 simple
 complex

Tags

  1. private experience
  2. item 17165
  3. two
  4. ontology
  5. dualities
  6. tables
  7. BozoTriviality
  8. BozoEquivocation
  9. ZombieBlogging
  10. MarkFastblogitRefuge

Comments


Mark de LA says
seth 2014-03-17 10:04:00 17165
Well this started by observing that (true, false) only applied to thought, (good,bad) to feeling, and (should, shouldn't) to will.  In other words these dualities don't just hang out independently in the air disconnected, but are dualities withing some context.  I was trying to see how that extended to other dualities. 

No big agenda here, just churning of thought and understanding.  This is really just a continuation of an understanding of GW's cube.  In the cube the predominant duality (perhaps the only one) is (male,female).  Should we assume that is how the Tao is represented in the cube? 

Incidentally when i tried to rub this kind of thought against GW, he took a authoritative attitude and basically said, just do the work.  I guess he didn't know me, and was oblivious to my insides ... alternatively his wisdom dictated that i was going in a wrong direction.  In any case the effect was to cause me to drop my interest in the cube.
Yep - this is intellectual - mostly thought.  Incidently, the mapping is normally held as: thought -true; feeling -beauty, & will - goodness .. & their opposites. The mappings that are in the cube are specified several ways in Book Chameleon pages 9, 00 & 000. It maps the zodiac, it maps the tree of life, it maps the 12 senses, the tarot & even the chakras. The Tao of yin-yang is well documented in the Yi King. See some of them on this map:

Yours maps into a table.

Mark de LA says
I wouldn't !!!

Seth says
Einai 2014-03-15 12:05:38 17165
Einai 2014-03-15 12:03:02 17165
seth 2014-03-15 11:47:31 17165
Einai 2014-03-15 11:32:44 17165
You may have a rather long list since the ultimate duality is:


Well if that is a duality, can you express it in the form of this list ... er, what does it classify, what is on one end, what is on the other?


  Well this is sometimes synonymous with this:

Similar to drawing the first circle in a venn diagram.






making a duality of a ven diagram in this form is ...
 distinction  A  not A

... so how would you make a Tao duality in this form?

Mark de LA says
The TAO ... IS!
Representing that which IS  would have the word IS in both columns

Me? I would have to see some purpose beyond intellectualizing, perhaps a niche in your ontology that makes my participating further with this all worth while. Such has, as yet, not been given being over here.


Seth says
Well this started by observing that (true, false) only applied to thought, (good,bad) to feeling, and (should, shouldn't) to will.  In other words these dualities don't just hang out independently in the air disconnected, but are dualities withing some context.  I was trying to see how that extended to other dualities. 

No big agenda here, just churning of thought and understanding.  This is really just a continuation of an understanding of GW's cube.  In the cube the predominant duality (perhaps the only one) is (male,female).  Should we assume that is how the Tao is represented in the cube? 

Incidentally when i tried to rub this kind of thought against GW, he took a authoritative attitude and basically said, just do the work.  I guess he didn't know me, and was oblivious to my insides ... alternatively his wisdom dictated that i was going in a wrong direction.  In any case the effect was to cause me to drop my interest in the cube.

Mark de LA says
Work on the distinction &/or context TWO if you need a clue!


Seth says
Einai 2014-03-16 11:11:18 17165
seth 2014-03-16 10:49:22 17165
Einai 2014-03-16 09:02:03 17165
seth 2014-03-16 08:41:04 17165
Einai 2014-03-16 07:55:29 17165
I wouldn't !!!

well i thought it might have been informative  to consider why it was being called "the ultimate duality" ... it seemed, either i haven't captured the form of a duality, or this was not the ultimate one.

i mean, was there something going on here that tends to come up, in my mind at least, when contemplating "ultimate" thingeys.  and that is the old divide by zero kind of erroneous process which yields a symbol which when thrown into a system renders it meaningless.  was what happened here a case in point?
  • shit & ¬¨shit is a duality, eh?
  • work on it a while you might get it

er, did i not just express the duality of shit & ¬shit above in my original response ...

 distinction  A  not A
  ??

why then am i being asked to reconsider that because you think i did not get it?

Also, please note, that there are just two columns and a label or classification or context column in my form.  Do you still think that i have ignored the salient twoness of duality?
Why you ask questions about it!

because i was curious where Tao fit into my ontology and into your ontology and what the different fit entailed for both or for either of us.  and i was also curious whether this form for analyzing multiple dualities could inform our understanding of them ... Tao was a case in point.  Hence my original question: how would you represent Tao as a duality in this form ... if in fact Tao is a duality ... and if this form can actually represent them?

Seth says
mark: Incidently, the mapping is normally held as: thought -true; feeling -beauty, & will - goodness .. & their opposites.

seth:   "thought - true (& its opposite false)" is in fact the same thing i expressed in my table above.   I just tagged the parts of that expression so that how they were related to other dualities might be discovered.

Feeling you have associated with beauty.  I am not so very sure that one feels external beauty or uglyness.  One rather feels good or bad ... if we are to name the binary extremes.   Beauty/ugliness seem to me to be more aesthetic perceptions ... part thought and part feeling. 

Will (doing) to me, in and of itself, is neither good or bad ... i can almost hear you saying, "it just is" ... apart from any judgement.   Perhaps i have it wrong in my table.   Maybe in the context of doing, it was either done, or not done.   The rest is the thoughts and judgements and feelings which result or were expected.

The closer we get to something, the more we are actually aware of it, ... so then the more accurately we can map it.   A practical map of the predicament is not going to be some old historical documentation with some (perhaps subjective) associations people have made ... rather it is something that we can actually consult and know where we are in the predicament.  Witness an old documented map of California ... try navigating with it today. 

Mark de LA says
Opposition is predictable when one can't see himself in the mirror.
If you want to study polarity look in Grammar of Changes.  If you want to study dimension study grammar of changes.  Maps are nice they help you find things.  Categories & other classifications abound in the works of many people including GW.  Some really fun, dynamic stuff is there in the projective faculties.
The brain or mind or soul or ??? has a humongous amount of shit all munged together.  Maybe notice it if you have a silent moment or two.  Can you even control any of it enough to see where it is coming from or recall it at will or grok for sure, like a direct experience, how you recall something at will? Can you not argue with the thought of a direct experience?
Maybe reinvent fire & the wheel - more power to you.
ME? I can move faster & farther not having to reinvent stuff that already exists.


Seth says
source: mark
Opposition is predictable when one can't see himself in the mirror.
... a strange and interesting pronouncement indeed .

It did get me thinking.  If there were no others, i could hardly be expected to know of myself.  I think i do see myself by my effect on others.  I do something to you, and then observe your reaction to what i have done, then i can interpret and imply from your reaction how you see me from the outside of myself.  There is no objective mirror of myself ... the best i have is your subjective reaction to me and my subjective interpretation of that. 

But that channel of perception can get confused and corrupted when instead of reacting directly to my actions, somebody instead mirrors what they subjectively presume that i am doing. 

You will probably be able to predict my reactions more accurately if you assume that i will be trying to react to what you have said to me, rather than assuming that I am doing to you, what i think you have done to me.   In other words, if i oppose something you said, it will be because it doen't work over here, not because you have just opposed me.

So, hopefully, you don't think that by mirroring my behavior, you are giving me useful information about myself.  Or, as you seem to have implied in your quite intriguing sentence above, that i oppose you simply because i am not aware that i am doing it.  If i oppose something you say, it is because it doesn't work over here ... and i am almost always quite aware that i am opposing it. 

Mark de LA says
seth 2014-03-18 09:10:40 17165
source: mark
Opposition is predictable when one can't see himself in the mirror.
... a strange and interesting pronouncement indeed .

It did get me thinking.  If there were no others, i could hardly be expected to know of myself.  I think i do see myself by my effect on others.  I do something to you, and then observe your reaction to what i have done, then i can interpret and imply from your reaction how you see me from the outside of myself.  There is no objective mirror of myself ... the best i have is your subjective reaction to me and my subjective interpretation of that. 

But that channel of perception can get confused and corrupted when instead of reacting directly to my actions, somebody instead mirrors what they subjectively presume that i am doing. 

You will probably be able to predict my reactions more accurately if you assume that i will be trying to react to what you have said to me, rather than assuming that I am doing to you, what i think you have done to me.   In other words, if i oppose something you said, it will be because it doen't work over here, not because you have just opposed me.

So, hopefully, you don't think that by mirroring my behavior, you are giving me useful information about myself.  Or, as you seem to have implied in your quite intriguing sentence above, that i oppose you simply because i am not aware that i am doing it.  If i oppose something you say, it is because it doesn't work over here ... and i am almost always quite aware that i am opposing it. 
Still predictable. Still nested & nesting in the nesting of nesting of the
ngaiwhanghi
maybe give being to honesty
or
communication
for progress

I have no idea what you are aiming at in [this: item 17165]. I doubt any more words will unconceal it either. I rest my interest on the outside of this door.


Seth says
Einai 2014-03-18 07:36:18 17165
Opposition is predictable when one can't see himself in the mirror.
If you want to study polarity look in Grammar of Changes.  If you want to study dimension study grammar of changes.  Maps are nice they help you find things.  Categories & other classifications abound in the works of many people including GW.  Some really fun, dynamic stuff is there in the projective faculties.
The brain or mind or soul or ??? has a humongous amount of shit all munged together.  Maybe notice it if you have a silent moment or two.  Can you even control any of it enough to see where it is coming from or recall it at will or grok for sure, like a direct experience, how you recall something at will? Can you not argue with the thought of a direct experience?
Maybe reinvent fire & the wheel - more power to you.
ME? I can move faster & farther not having to reinvent stuff that already exists.

hey, you do whatever your way ... you won't find me suggesting otherwise.

for me, taking GW's associations as authoritative descriptions feels like interpreting the symbols on an an ancient map of California which does not match my experience.  for me what i am doing does not feel like inventing ... rather it feels like finding ways to describe what i actually experience.  The 15th century cartographers wanted California to be a mysterious island ... we now know it is not ... er Hotel California notwithstanding.  Ask, what did GW want the perdicament to be?  Can i honestly assume that his associations and interpretations were quite so very objective?

Seth says
source: mark
Adios! - BTW I learned through 20 years of QA can't really QA something without spec. If one does not know what it is or what it is to be used for all one can do is break it (or possibly worship it) - who knows?
In this case the "spec" is actual experience ... er, does experience match the model?   Same situation obtains with any objective inquire where an authoritative specification does not exist.  In fact my approach here tries to tease the subject away from the authoritative baggage inherited from history.  I do realize that is not something on your adgenda. 

... yep, Adios.

Seth says
source: mark
  • Your argument is as old as Cain & Abel.
  • Because I point at stuff drawn & written before does not mean that I don't personalize it with my NOW.
  • I look at multiple sources besides GW & RS - some call that research!
  • I did a lot of QA testing for a living, eh?
  • It has always been in my blood.
  • Test your abstrations somewhere outside your walled garden & see what you get from other people than ME.

Whatever that is about, it certainly does not inform my ontology.  It just tells me about your attitude towards what i am doing. 

I kind of did hope you would have QA'd something here ... if that was your stick, but you focused on me instead, and diverted attention to something that is not here.   Anyway, no problem, and no need to argue ... the only tangibly new thing that i have said here was ...
i observed that (true, false) only applied to thought, (good,bad) to feeling, and (did, did not) to action.  These dualities don't just hang out independently in the air disconnected, but are dualities withing some context
... and i have no agenda to extend that, nor any intention of soliciting your cooperation in examining it further.



Seth says
Einai 2014-04-05 09:30:09 17165
Whatever it is, this method seems to be linear rather than direct access.  I can climb a tree faster than going down a list to get some grok ( G^^2)


well i don't make more of what you call "this method" than just a format to record the edges or facts ... just a way of pointing them out ... of enumerating them ... of recording them.  Once recognized then they can be arranged in relationship to each other as a tree or a net or a cube or just held in some context in one's mind. 

The point was the first column which says that each duality is related to some peculiar context ... in other words it does not just hang out isolated in space.  Now in the light of nathan's gestalt we may need to relate each to self ... but perhaps that slot would always just contain the symbol "self" ... it would be constant ... or would it?

Is your new symbol, ( G^^2), important to consider within this exact context?  Or does it better belong to another one?

Mark de LA says
When G^^2 just flowed out I grokked that it might apply elsewhere - that's why I emphasized it.  Maybe it denotes a shortcut to the end result (sic.) of a contemplation or an actual answer. An example might be the:
PRalston: ... The answer is the conscious commands & the body obeys.
...at the end of the book.  In your case with the table I think you repelled any notion of a punchline, eh?



Seth says
a better term for these so called "dualities" might just be "spectrums". 

is there really any dualities?  Can you point out one that is not a spectrum? 

Mark de LA says
Projective dualities as seen in the 17306 interchanges points for lines & visa versa & transforms the cube into the octahedron. google projective duality if you want.
 

Seth says
Einai 2014-06-06 17:46:26 17165
Projective dualities as seen in the 17306 interchanges points for lines & visa versa & transforms the cube into the octahedron. google projective duality if you want.
 

interesting ... can you gestalt how the changes that happen when switching a point for a line inform our understanding of contradictory extremes ... er, just like a bow and arrow informs a violin bow ?

Mark de LA says
seth 2014-06-07 08:30:08 17165
Einai 2014-06-06 17:46:26 17165
Projective dualities as seen in the 17306 interchanges points for lines & visa versa & transforms the cube into the octahedron. google projective duality if you want.
 

interesting ... can you gestalt how the changes that happen when switching a point for a line inform our understanding of contradictory extremes ... er, just like a bow and arrow informs a violin bow ?
It is a mathematical duality according to Wolfram so if you want to only include dualities that fit your own munge of duality & spectrum go for it.
Not all spectrums are dualities & visa versa.



Seth says
source: mark
Yeah... I'm done here.  I'm going to go by my last comment on the item cited above.


... ... ... strange subjective reaction. 

i wonder where that reaction fell on the spectrum subjective/objective and just what other duality is perpendicular to it specifically.

Wow ... talk about use cases for a mandala !

Seth says

well i guess a point could be considered to be a contradictory extreme to a line.

nice circular spectrum ...
mabye like this ... but are complementary colors opposite across the circle?

Your certainly right about spectrums ... any number of things can be blended .  

I wonder ... which of those things listed in this item would it make sense to blend around the same circle?  for the moment that escapes me ... maybe you can get that wallaby ...

Seth says
...

I think this dynamic informs how a circular spectrum which Mark and perhaps RS introduced above could be generated from a duality.

Note i am defining a duality as two things related such that the more of one the less of the other.   eg the more evil the less good, yada yada do.

Assume for a moment that an actual duality being consists of two components both of which can be either negative or positive.  And further assume that they are related mathematically in value to each other as the length of two sides of a right triangle are related. 



Seth says
Einai 2014-06-08 09:45:37 17165
seth 2014-06-08 09:42:17 17165
source: mark
Yep, #BozoTriviality exceeds even all that! #BozoEquivocation ""
... oh mark ... whatever it is it is not about me.   why do you always seem to project it as such?
I guess a zombie wrote it. You are not unbiased just because you are still jousting windmills with your father's domain.
#ZombieBlogging
"" <-- icon for #ZombieBlogging
yeah i think a zombie did write it .

i, just like you, struggle with this subjective/objective divide ... and i try not to boast about the right of it ... yet i certainly do not worship the left of it.  projecting either on the other is just some kind of horseshit breaking of this ethic.  which is not my thing, one way or the other, it just distracts me from my focus ... you too i am presuming. 

incidentally your presumptions of how GW affects my life are just that, your presumptions ... me thinks you would be better off without those ... then maybe you could percieve me instead of your presumptions ... which, er, might actually be more about you than they are about me. 

Seth says
Einai 2014-06-08 08:12:51 17165
seth 2014-06-08 08:09:02 17165
of course conceiving of a quality that can go negative is not a easy thing for me to do
via G+
(***)


If i owe more money than i have, then the value of my money is negative.  Ludwig was not talking about that sort of thing ... but i was.

But lets talk about one of the dualities above ... eg good/evil.   we are assuming that the more good the less evil ... and that both of those qualities can go negative and well as positive.  we do that just because it matches the model of sides of a right triangle where if one increases the other decreases and the values of the lengths can go negative (on the other direction of the circle).  The question then becomes does that better model the reality of how good and evil interact.  To do that we would need to concieve how evil can go into a deficit situition ... or how good could go into a deficit situation.  Sans that conception, the model does not work.



Seth says
seth 2014-06-08 09:33:55 17165
Einai 2014-06-08 08:20:49 17165
There are other threefold notions: Ahriman-Lucifer-Christ


ahriman/lucifer/christ is a fascinating triviality to study ... we could spend a lifetime on that one

but obviously i would want to strip out the old mystical historical symbols ... me thinks now they just get in the way of understanding the things themselves.

Mark de LA says
seth 2014-06-08 09:42:17 17165
source: mark
Yep, #BozoTriviality exceeds even all that! #BozoEquivocation ""
... oh mark ... whatever it is it is not about me.   why do you always seem to project it as such?
I guess a zombie wrote it. You are not unbiased just because you are still jousting windmills with your father's domain.
#ZombieBlogging
"" <-- icon for #ZombieBlogging

Mark de LA says
seth 2014-06-08 10:53:01 17165
Einai 2014-06-08 09:45:37 17165
seth 2014-06-08 09:42:17 17165
source: mark
Yep, #BozoTriviality exceeds even all that! #BozoEquivocation ""
... oh mark ... whatever it is it is not about me.   why do you always seem to project it as such?
I guess a zombie wrote it. You are not unbiased just because you are still jousting windmills with your father's domain.
#ZombieBlogging
"" <-- icon for #ZombieBlogging
yeah i think a zombie did write it .

i, just like you, struggle with this subjective/objective divide ... and i try not to boast about the right of it ... yet i certainly do not worship the left of it.  projecting either on the other is just some kind of horseshit breaking of this ethic.  which is not my thing, one way or the other, it just distracts me from my focus ... you too i am presuming. 

incidentally your presumptions of how GW affects my life are just that, your presumptions ... me thinks you would be better off without those ... then maybe you could percieve me instead of your presumptions ... which, er, might actually be more about you than they are about me. 
Yep, going back to #MarkFastblogitRefuge


Seth says
source: mark
The triad is Lucifer (extreme model for Ego-Self) ; Ahriman (extreme model for Material World is Supreme); AND Christ (extreme model for LOVE) .  Some atheists & anti-religionists hate making a 3-pole out of that.

i.e. inside-outside-love
... indeed. 


Seth says
Einai 2014-06-08 10:06:37 17165
Something just come 3D like electricity, magnetism etc. 
or GW's extension of the root sign to cover all number theory.

yeah three things, all which can positive and negative, which are perpendicular will do exactly that


gw's document re this brings to mind maybe why RS had mathmaticism almost opposite to realism, eh?



Seth says
Einai 2014-06-08 10:24:21 17165
seth 2014-06-08 10:22:29 17165
Einai 2014-06-08 10:07:14 17165
seth 2014-06-08 09:53:28 17165
seth 2014-06-08 09:42:17 17165
source: mark
Yep, #BozoTriviality exceeds even all that! #BozoEquivocation ""
... oh mark ... whatever it is it is not about me.   why do you always seem to project it as such?

i mean, you answer for me, how you can be in the NOW and use those old ancient associations?
You have nothing new.

do you know that or do you just presume that?   also new representations interacting almost always do produce new possibilities ... er, that is just the way they actually do work ... so your presumption is just a lie.  the only question is why it feels so good to you.
Then, too there are people who can only think in terms +/- or in 2-poles ; extreme of that would be the world of bipolars.


yep i am sure there are.  but please don't put that on me.  my favorite number actually is 3. 

that these things come to our intelligence as 2's is not something that i have created ... it has, after all come from historical development.  i would love recomposing (re concieiving them) as threezies ... or 5's ... or 7's.  however they actually better model reality is totally super to me.

Seth says
  Continuingmy persuit of an almost mathematical view of dualities ...


this dynamic comes pretty close. 

Note A increase when B decreases and is always headed in the opposite direction.

This is a vibration.  Might it also be the same kind of vibrations that d'A is referring to?

Left for study is, given this model, why do like vibrations attract?

Seth says
seth 2014-06-09 15:02:46 17165

which probably came from here. 

i find it interesting to be able to model psychology with mathematics.  i suspect that may make some feel queezy ... er, and they would feel i was being heretical ... but then some may not love these things in and of themselves ... no because thet would seem to threaten something that they hold even more deer than existence itself.

Seth says
i wonder if dualities are more like gestalts from different orientations ...

see original on G+


this, of course, is  a variation on the analogy that dualities are different sides of the same coin ... which i take is the Tao way of looking at it.




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