Professionalism & Politeness -vs- Being Authentic & Honest


I can look at professionalism as representing the best of our culture.  These practices have evolved and sophisticated over many centuries of trial, error and research and now work, for the most part, spectacularly well.  

So too have our products and services.  (quickly sketching something deeper)

As an individual I can hardly presume that I can function as efficiently as a professional can in their area of expertise.  That would be foolish.

So it is hard not to assume that, should I want to live the best life possible, I should obtain the most money possible and purchases the very best professional goods and services that are available.

... er, well, perhaps not!

Yet, am i not continually reminded of that assumption from my society?







train of though started after passionate discussion here

Tags

  1. gestalts
  2. pc
  3. political correctness
  4. being current
  5. professional

Comments


Seth says
Einai 2014-03-16 09:42:59 17167
Not glad I wasted the distinction on bozo - perhaps such resembles the PC problem in itself. Some decide that what is valid is what they say is valid. It is certainly not an open groundedness opportunity. Notice the attempt to politicize climate change (or not).

Well munging this syndrome up with partisanship is going to just get it lost for us in particular ... i strongly suggest that we try to separate it from that.  This is something that happens with liberals, conservatives, libertarians, capatalists and socialsts alike.  It is orthonogal to all of that. 

Notice: I am not lobbying to ban the practice of profesionalism and/or the established disregard for our self determined value.

Yet, that I decide what is valid (right) for me IS the foundation of my freedom.  And by extension that is the foundation of our individual existences as part of humanity.  Perhaps we have always disagreed upon that.   But even that disagreement, should it even be more than a mere presumption on my part, need not prevent our different views from informing each other.

Seth says
raises the question:  when to be personal with other people, and when not?   When do we participate in professionalism, either as clients or as practitioners, ... and when in our lives and careers, are those roles dropped ... and hence the interaction is just honestly peer to peer person to person?

Mark de LA says
seth 2014-03-15 17:58:12 17167
Einai 2014-03-15 11:13:54 17167
seth 2014-03-15 11:08:07 17167
Einai 2014-03-15 10:37:10 17167
Can true communication happen in text & pictures? Peter Ralston on Communication:
(***) Can one perceive that there is an actual human being on the other end ? Eliza etc notwithstanding?


Well the more bands in which to experience the other there are, the easier it is to form the gestalt.  But i see no reason to draw a hard boundary and say the gestalt happens only with x or with y.

In the context of this item, i want to say that face to face presence is necessary to get beyond the abstraction and obliviousness people have towards each other in our culture.  Yet to go even beyond that and get at the difference between f2f interaction that is not peer to peer and adult to adult but rather parent to child and client to server. 

& NO LIMITS implied except in AI text such as Eliza.& maybe the M$M. The possibility IS the question. Assume that all f2f is peer 2 peer - then what?  That (the question) is particularly fun in politics where there  is a lot of juggling around to pretend someone is on top.


Well all f2f is definitely NOT p2p.  Most usually people assume roles ... either placing themselves in the superior position or assuming a client role.  In fact in most professional to client relationship the profession itself bans and p2p personal interaction.  Professionals are supposed to treat their clients as objective abstractions.  That is almost the prime directive of professionalism, is it not?

So, i do not get why we would "assume that all f2f is p2p" ... huh?

The bolded colored Ariel type face stuff is a possibility you were invited to try on for a moment & see what happens.  Like another possibility I am trying on now "assume Seth is not full of shit for the moment"  - reject it or not.


Mark de LA says
Thanks for bringing this up as it led to the Book just mentioned.  It has a lot of pictures & I acquired it mostly without reading it since it looked like it was about the physical martial arts.


Seth says

 well i like your new "assume Seth is not full of shit for the moment" possibility 

still and all, er, back to the topic ... which i would prefer not get lost in some kind of static. 

This is a syndrome that kind of bothers me deeply ... and has nothing to do with you ... and i am trying, very desperately, for it not to have anything to do with me either ... er, i am trying to be objective, in other words.  I think you have the subject associated in your mind with the term "Politically Correct".  But i think that PC goes deeper than most people seem to imagine ... and permeates the professional/client aspect of our culture ... it causes the most important aspects of our lives to be depersonalized, our inside spirit degraded and treated as mere baggage.  Think, when was the last time you had a honest peer to peer conversation with a professional or someone functioning within their role of the establishment?

Another place where this same syndrome takes hold is in commerce.  A thing or service is no longer considered legitimate or valuable unless it is purchased.  Oh sure, DIY is popular ... but when we come right down to it ... is mostly considered fringe ... or at best an unusual noble attempt.

This syndrome may have been what necessitated me declaring myself "an experimental" early on ... trying thereby to make myself exempt.  My "Bozo" name also reflects some of that.

In this context, i think you were asking me to contemplate a world where being current and real and personal to each other ... er, even in matters that really counted, matters where we are almost required to be PC.  But that is a contra-factual world ... and not one i can just transport to.  The best i can do is to contemplate steps in that direction.  Or more practically how best to adapt my own attitude to that which i find exists. 



Seth says
source: You still missed that everyone is a peer unless you grant being to your being subordinate to them or visa-versa.  You don't have to do such.
Well thing is this is not a unilateral relationship ... it does take both sides to make it work one way or the other.   In fact where I adopt an attitude that contradicts the attitude of the other is just exactly where anger and hostility and ineffectuality takes place.  For example, if somebody assumes they have superior knowledge to me and i act to contradict that, do you think  that they will just cooperate with me and have a useful conversation?  No, that has not been my experience.

Have you actually been able to do that?

Are you not just suggesting that i assume a contra factual world?

Mark de LA says
seth 2014-03-16 21:13:27 17167
Einai 2014-03-16 11:12:27 17167
Yep - wasted my time. Please privatize it.


Well that's not the way i see it.  Your suggestion of imagining what a true p2p might be like,  informed my inquiry ... and you caused me to clarify my thoughts.  Why would i hide an item that i needed to express, just because you think you wasted your time on it?  That makes no sense, to me, for me to do.
Yerp, that is my impression of what I write. It is rarely read deeply (pun intended) unless it is a mirror for you to write something or something you can subsume as meaning the same thing as you write. You still missed that everyone is a peer unless you grant being to your being subordinate to them or visa-versa.  You don't have to do such. POTUS is still a man regardless & he probably takes a shit just like you do. A couple of context exceptions are the military & when a policeman stops you. It may take some nerve, but I suggest you can tell anyone to go to Hell as a peer & mean it & ... there are consequences - especially if she has a gun. Derp.
Zzzz ..

Mark de LA says
seth 2014-03-17 07:21:53 17167
source: You still missed that everyone is a peer unless you grant being to your being subordinate to them or visa-versa.  You don't have to do such.
Well thing is this is not a unilateral relationship ... it does take both sides to make it work one way or the other.   In fact where I adopt an attitude that contradicts the attitude of the other is just exactly where anger and hostility and ineffectuality takes place.  For example, if somebody assumes they have superior knowledge to me and i act to contradict that, do you think  that they will just cooperate with me and have a useful conversation?  No, that has not been my experience.

Have you actually been able to do that?

Are you not just suggesting that i assume a contra factual world?
Negotiation does happen - such could be considered a fact. The more a person insists otherwise the deeper the hole is dug & the more being is given to the opposite.
Attitude is a very RWG thingy, imho.  I can acknowledge, appreciate & respect that you may be exploring that word as part of your ontology. Me? - I find it close to accusing one of having a "bad attitude".  As I have done above, one can always defuse something a bit by acknowledging the other person having said what they have said attesting to the fact one is actually listening.  One can always appreciate another being in their participating. And, one might give being to respecting another for their engagement in the matter. As a start giving being to those ideas can help one discover the touch stone for further inquiry in a matter.
Funny I just googled the phrase "give being to" and first ran into 15545. Technically I mean languaging something into existence internally or externally.


Mark de LA says
In tense negotiation sometimes 2 steps (1 & 2) may work
  1. Offer genuine description of the feelings you are having about the other's communicatin - how is it affecting you?
  2. Speculate what the other is trying to get across.
  3. (maybe offer a bridge solution or something positive) & turn the floor over to the other.
  4. go back to 1

Mark de LA says
This might also help or muddy it up from one of Peter's other books:
I had forgotten where I got the term, but it has come from several sources.


Seth says
You tagged this "4 unrelated ideas" ... but the whole point of this item is to understand how those 4 ideas are related ... or alternatively how they are not related. 

This relates to questions like the following ...

if as you are always polite and politically correct in our society, are you also able to be honest and authentic?  What about people who can, and those who can not?

if you always defer to professionals, can you also really create your own life?  What about people who do,  and those who do not?

if you use only successful products, what of yourself are you adding to the culture? 

Now certainly we are not dealing with binary behavior ... and most people don't always going to do anything ... we are talkin about a spectrum of possibilities of behavior ... some follow easily with no friction, and no courage, in our society ... some yield tension anger and require rebellion and to live an authentic live (being currfent) we must oppose the accepted prescribed way.

There are many domains where these kind of trade offs exist ... from food and medicine ... to housing and social life ... to media and education ... to commerce and jurisprudence.

This is kind of like asking:  can you buy a life?  If you can buy that ideal life, would it be worth living?  
When should we follow the instructions on the Life Package that we opened?

Seth says
Einai 2014-03-17 13:13:21 17167
Yep I have the deep feeling that I did in fact waste my time here. You apparently if not totally brushed aside my invitation & gave intense being to the opposite. I speculate that the only thing interesting to you here is you & your ideas.
Adios!



Well i am struggling here to understand how what you are pointing at has anything to do with what i am talking about.  Bear in mind i am not trying to get out of the predicament ... or gestalt it away ... or learn to listen to others ... or love them ... or find peace withing my own being.  Rather i am trying to understand what society is doing to me and what i am doing to it ... the relationship or attitude of how i relate to society ... and in particular the established habits of that society versus my personal being.  It is just a rather particular relationship that i just need to talk about.  I do respect that you have an idea that you are trying to get across to me.  But how does that view inform what i am dealing with here?  Do you even understand what i am dealing with here?

Or flash on it differently ... assume for the sake of argument that you are a Guru who is all knowing and wise even about my particular life and have taken on the task of educating Bozo here ... perhaps i even paid you.   But now, after spending the allotted time you were paid to do, i still can not parrot back my lesson, so you throw up your hands and say that you are sorry you wasted *your* time on me.   Would not that be the negative aspect of very relationship that i am talking about ... professional vs me being current and real?

I don't know if that helped you see this from my point of view:  ... but understand it or not ... ignore this item or not ... all of that is just about you ... and has nothing to do with 17167 or me.

I am really trying to communicate with you about this ... so let me say it differently:  if what you are saying here is really about the same thing i am talking about, why can't you simply and directly tell me how it is about the same thing? ... er in your own words.

Bear in mind that i am not talking about how to achieve a p2p relationship with someone.  I am taking about how a person forms their attitude twards the established order of society.  ... and i guess i am using me in particular as the only example that will ever really count for me.  ... er ... what do you do when a professional authority tells you in no uncertain terms to trust them and just do what they say.   Do you just go back to them, fuck off?  Well certainly you probably do ... just as would I.  But now collect all those moments together as a whole life ... now what do we have?  Sorry, Mark, i am obviously reaching for something here ... so ignore it or not ... or don't wast your time on it or not ... just as you will.

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