My direct experience


I got a flash ... a new interpretation of "direct experience".  It is ridiculously simple.  I mean there are these three major things that I do ... and all of them are experiences.  I think ... that is an experience.  I feel, that too is an experience.  But those two experiences are really in a sense within the meta-world of signs and language or my own reaction to being which is, in a sense, still indirect. 

The third major thing that I do is ... er, i actually do something.  a little chuckle needs to be expressed right here .  Now i would like to interpert all that experience which happens when i actually do something as "direct experience".

I do realize that kind of "direct experience" is quite possibly not what others are calling "direct experience".   Well so be it.  This is my direct experience.  If you want to call something different a "direct experience", then by all means do so, and if you want me to know what you mean by it, they just tell me. 

Tags

  1. action
  2. direct experience
  3. doing
  4. my direct experience

Comments


Seth says
source: mark
Yep - expected that. SUM ==> YEE prevails.  You also don't understand what PR say anyway since it is the final quote in the book you have yet to read, if at all.

... hmmmm .   So in that regard i must be wrong and you be certainly right, eh?

Mark de LA says
MR 2014-03-24 09:55:39 17210
seth 2014-03-24 09:45:54 17210
source: mark
Yep - expected that. SUM ==> YEE prevails.  You also don't understand what PR say anyway since it is the final quote in the book you have yet to read, if at all.

... hmmmm .   So in that regard i must be wrong and you be certainly right, eh?
nope [see item 17215] for semantics of the interchange. No assumption is made about right or wrong.



Seth says
MR 2014-03-24 09:12:26 17210
I also like, maybe even prefer, the quote from PR in the body of 17189 as a description of the being-doing-experience.  Such quote does bring into the fold the notions of consciousness & something that the body obeys - which in the old vernacular is will - mostly unconscious in it's interplay.


I do not experience commanding my body to move.  Rather i move my body. 

Seth says
MR 2014-03-24 07:59:54 17210
Reframing & deframing other people's distinctions may or not actually lead to communication. It could be thought of as similar to noticing that the word htes & shit are very similar & so the same words might be used in either case.

BTW in the contemplation intensive PR brought up many times when he used the words direct experience that such was neither direct nor experience but that was his suggestion for categorizing  the answer to the question "Who Am I?" for the moment.


Yes i have tried out answering "Who Am I" as being what is characterized as "direct experience" ... and actually do experience it.  The experience is certainly different than yours or PR's, but then i am a different person.  But when I experience that, i know that i am experiencing my reaction to being.  That is indirect.  In fact all thought and feeling is indirect in that sense.  Yet when i experience doing something, there is no indirection involved. 

It is kind of a flash ... i know you may not see it ... no problem.  Strangely enough, for me it is a useful gestalt.  I have for a long time glorified action in my life over thought and feeling.  That perhaps is just me ... but when i am really in sync with the universe it is just when i am doing something in it ... not when i am thinking or feeling about it.  The most i will ever get from experiencing the answer to "Who am I", be it consequential or spiritual, is my reaction to being ... it can in fact be very intense ... even perhaps ultimately satisfying to me ... nonetheless it is not me actually doing something. 

BTW, reframing someting into my own mind is exactly what happens when communication is successful.   It is like taking something from your side of the Klein bottle and bringing it around to my side of the bottle and connecting it here. Great metaphor your discovered, eh?

Seth says
MR 2014-03-24 10:43:43 17210
MR 2014-03-24 09:55:39 17210
seth 2014-03-24 09:45:54 17210
source: mark
Yep - expected that. SUM ==> YEE prevails.  You also don't understand what PR say anyway since it is the final quote in the book you have yet to read, if at all.

... hmmmm .   So in that regard i must be wrong and you be certainly right, eh?
nope [see item 17215] for semantics of the interchange. No assumption is made about right or wrong.



Well I think this item is an excellent example of me "showing how my context relates to your context".   As far as i can tell i do understand what you and PR are talking about when you use the term "direct experience".  But strangely enough both of you end up then talking about something that does not feel direct to me at all ... rather it feels quite indirect to me.  

Now it could well be that i have not experienced this actual thingy you are calling "direct experience".  But i assure you that i have had some rather intense experiences which answer for me "Who i am".  These are also experiences that i can pretty much reproduce.  Now, sans the extra baggage assumptions and dogma that you and PR attach to that experience, i still think it is actually the same kind of experience you are describing about the same kind of thingey.  And  it really should be no surprise to you, nor be controversial,  when i tell you that i interpret my experience quite differently than do you or PR.   

But then we come to the experience of effortless power.  Now the same thing applies there ... i did not matriculate in PR's dogo ... so who am i to say what this mysterious thingey is or is not.  Yet i have, quite consciously experienced what i could only describe as "effortless action" ... er, not very often i must admit, but still and all i know what that is.  And, surprise, surprise, it is in no way and indirect experience.  It does not to me have that indirection that i percieve when i experience the answer to who i am.  Doing something in the world, is in fact my direct experience.

Now, Mark, you may not like my response, but that is in you, not me.  You may think i am arguing with you about what you mean, but that also is in you and not me.  I am telling you what my direct experience is.  I expect it might feel quite good to you to just respect that simply as an my otherness to you, rather than trying to persuade me to be the same there as you are.

Ok?


Mark de LA says
OK enjoy!

Mark de LA says
You might or not benefit from the distinction that PR does not issue dogma & tells his students NOT to believe anything - indeed such is fundamental to the process LISTEN, etc.
His is freer than even your ontology of dogma I assert. Self created dogma may still be considered as dogma, eh?


Seth says
MR 2014-03-24 17:55:17 17210
Would you say you are having a direct experience in cases you describe in [item 17088] ? I mean you were doing something when they occurred.


... well more like i was not doing something.  were i had been totally doing it, then there would have been no trembling.  i doubt that a Karate master trembles as he breaks the stones.  i can imagine that it is pretty much the same with your experience of what you are ... obviously i do not know that ... but, i do know that when i am knowing what i am, sometimes it is superb and, as you seem to have noticed, sometimes it is shit .

Mark de LA says
seth 2014-03-24 20:27:58 17210
MR 2014-03-24 17:55:17 17210
Would you say you are having a direct experience in cases you describe in [item 17088] ? I mean you were doing something when they occurred.


... well more like i was not doing something.  were i had been totally doing it, then there would have been no trembling.  i doubt that a Karate master trembles as he breaks the stones.  i can imagine that it is pretty much the same with your experience of what you are ... obviously i do not know that ... but, i do know that when i am knowing what i am, sometimes it is superb and, as you seem to have noticed, sometimes it is shit .
Yep, there are many depths or layers to the experience - depends upon where you focus consciousness.
As a tennis player & b-league raquetball player I had the "conscious commands & the body obeys" relationship to the game. No time to think during the game. It came experience.


Seth says
Einai 2014-03-27 16:32:33 17210
MR 2014-03-24 13:05:25 17210
You might or not benefit from the distinction that PR does not issue dogma & tells his students NOT to believe anything - indeed such is fundamental to the process LISTEN, etc.
His is freer than even your ontology of dogma I assert. Self created dogma may still be considered as dogma, eh?

If you are interested in how Cheng Hsin holds religion &/or belief you can find it by searching the pdf linked n the about box of 16414 for "religion" and go there. It is a very good context for Cheng Hsin. Can do thou likewise for belief & experience.

That is fine and i am sure that if i studied PR's stuff i would glean quite a bit from it.  Unfortunately there are many voices which want my attention and some of the assumptions i have already read in his messages do not match my own.  Consequently i will not be following your lead in this matter.  I would like to say again to you the last paragraph of this item ...
source: me [new emphasis]
I do realize that kind of "direct experience" is quite possibly not what others are calling "direct experience".   Well so be it.  This is my direct experience.  If you want to call something different a "direct experience", then by all means do so, and if you want me to know what you mean by it, then just tell me
... in other words, if you have some knowledge that you wish to share with me, please by all means share it with me directly in your own words.

Seth says
Einai 2014-03-28 10:39:20 17210
seth 2014-03-28 10:29:26 17210
Einai 2014-03-28 10:16:27 17210

???  wtf

If that is a question, and if you want it answered, could you please ask it more precisely?
Yeah, I am communicating to you about the above that I don't know what precisely you are talking about! Enjoy or not! It is a mungy munge-up or what was already answered quite well- the particular part about belief & religion that PR talked about precisely.
Re-enjoy or not - your schtick!

Well i still can't quite guess what specifically you are asking, if in fact you are asking anything.  I reread my statement above to you and find it quite clear indeed and do not know how i can clarify it further ... so if you do not understand it, i need to know more precisely what there that i said that you don't understand. 

But anyway i am guessing that you are still assuming, that my claim that PR's philosophy has no unacceptable assumptions ever for me, is unfounded.  But that is not the case.  Almost every paragraph of his contains such an assumption ... your claim and his that it does not notwithstanding.  In fact i went into detail on one such assumption: viz his claim that the correct method of body and function is that the consciousness commands and the body obeys.  But that is just one of many.

And yes, my own assumptions are no better than PR's or yours.  Even though I tend to break mine  on Tuesday mornings or on Thursdays when the sun goes down and it is raining.  But thing is they are mine, and i can be responsible for having them, and know them in their intricate design ... not so with PR's. 

Seth says
Einai 2014-03-28 12:41:38 17210
seth 2014-03-28 12:29:14 17210
source: mark
KEWL triple negative...  with a follow-on negating of that. Need to be in la-la-land to untangle that especially considering Bozo's venn diagrams.  That's a good WTF in itself! There are NO assumptions on PR's part - just yours about his.  Read the actual reference on what Cheng Hsin is where I told you it was. No beliefs, no dogma - just instructions on how one can get to the door of same place.  In your case there is no place, some place, who knows? hence wtf.

Well, like i said above in more detail, there certainly are assumptions that one must accept to follow what PR is saying.
Nope! just your assumptions about PR & his. Might have to hold the context of an objective world outside yourself, though . Thanks for the juice & the deframe as usual yee & but ... whatever..
..


Well actually a belief in the existence of an objective world outside of myself is apparently something that PR and i already share.  I call mine "otherness to me".  Such a complete context cannot exist inside my being by definition.   If you and PR think that you can actually hold such a complete context in your being, then that is just one of those pesky assumptions you have going that i refuse to accept. 

Mark de LA says
seth 2014-03-28 15:35:45 17210
Einai 2014-03-28 14:42:10 17210
seth 2014-03-28 13:43:46 17210
source: mark
That's your strawman yet again . Thanks for reminding me.  None of that in PR.

again with denial and no substance sans rwg

oh well

in this case i was just bouncing off your own words, viz "Might have to hold the context of an objective world outside yourself, though".  Be less ambiguous there and i can respond more directly.
This train has reached it's station I am headed off in a different direction - bon voyage.


Seth says
Einai 2014-03-28 14:42:10 17210
seth 2014-03-28 13:43:46 17210
source: mark
That's your strawman yet again . Thanks for reminding me.  None of that in PR.

again with denial and no substance sans rwg

oh well

in this case i was just bouncing off your own words, viz "Might have to hold the context of an objective world outside yourself, though".  Be less ambiguous there and i can respond more directly.

See Also

  1. Thought Cycle of doing with 782 viewings related by tag "doing".
  2. Thought Moving from 2 to 3 dimensions with 555 viewings related by tag "Doing".
  3. Thought The art of doing with 289 viewings related by tag "doing".
  4. Thought New TetModel of Psychology with 246 viewings related by tag "action".
  5. Thought Triangulating ... with 155 viewings related by tag "doing".
  6. Thought TetModel of Feedback with 139 viewings related by tag "action".
  7. Thought about: Megaphone vs Free Speech vs Political Correctness - comment 72579 - comment 72589 with 134 viewings related by tag "doing".
  8. Thought A thought causing an action with 111 viewings related by tag "action".
  9. Thought #iSwim with 86 viewings related by tag "doing".
  10. Thought Crisps up LOA! with 79 viewings related by tag "action".
  11. Thought about: thought 23251 - comment 74736 with 62 viewings related by tag "doing".
  12. Thought Money is not Valuable with 45 viewings related by tag "directExperience".
  13. Thought Doing ... with 38 viewings related by tag "action".
  14. Thought Sequence of Encounter reply in Newsletter with 35 viewings related by tag "direct experience".
  15. Thought About beliefs with 27 viewings related by tag "DirectExperience".
  16. Thought #doing #do #ArtOfDoing #CycleOfDoing with 19 viewings related by tag "doing".
  17. Thought about: vitamin k: jamming the transmissions with 13 viewings related by tag "action".
  18. Thought about: The art of doing - comment 74749 with 10 viewings related by tag "doing".
  19. Thought A drawing of NOWs in my life with 6 viewings related by tag "doing".
  20. Thought about: legendary victorian art critic john ruskin on the value of imperfection and how manual labor confers dignity upon creative work | brain pickings with 5 viewings related by tag "action".
  21. Thought Action and Story with 5 viewings related by tag "action".
  22. Thought You said that to say what? with 2 viewings related by tag "doing".
  23. Thought Schrodinger's Cat with 2 viewings related by tag "doing".
  24. Thought We participate in humanity, by what we do! with 1 viewings related by tag "doing".
  25. Thought Peter Ralston's attitude twards representations ... with 1 viewings related by tag "direct experience".
  26. Thought about: "Seeing God" Nabeel Afsar -- a Muslim with 1 viewings related by tag "direct experience".
  27. Thought Identity-DNA with 1 viewings related by tag "direct experience".
  28. Thought Werner vs Buddha or Both? with 1 viewings related by tag "action".
  29. Thought The Volcano Effect with 0 viewings related by tag "direct experience".
  30. Thought Getting from I to We with 0 viewings related by tag "doing".
  31. Thought The Metaworld VS Direct Experience with 0 viewings related by tag "direct experience".
  32. Thought Give me a break! with 0 viewings related by tag "doing".
  33. Thought the relationship between what i do and what i think and feel with 0 viewings related by tag "action".
  34. Thought Happenstance with 0 viewings related by tag "action".
  35. Thought Being .. Doing .. Having - Distinctions Can BE Made with 0 viewings related by tag "doing".
  36. Thought Balancing thought, feeling, and action against the outside world with 0 viewings related by tag "action".
  37. Thought A Morning Game with 0 viewings related by tag "doing".
  38. Thought Effect ... with 0 viewings related by tag "direct experience".
  39. Thought Fire Air Water Earth with 0 viewings related by tag "doing".
  40. Thought Everything is Metaphysics with 0 viewings related by tag "direct experience".
  41. Thought about: rootsaction with 0 viewings related by tag "action".
  42. Thought impulse with 0 viewings related by tag "action".
  43. Thought a cause of turbulence with 0 viewings related by tag "action".
  44. Thought Praxeology with 0 viewings related by tag "action".
  45. Thought about: silence-the lightning path with 0 viewings related by tag "doing".
  46. Thought about: everyone failed to ride this bicycle. the reason behind is mind-boggling with 0 viewings related by tag "doing".
  47. Thought about: Confirmation Bias with 0 viewings related by tag "action".
  48. Thought Action ... with 0 viewings related by tag "action".
  49. Thought GoldenRule(Love) > RWG with 0 viewings related by tag "doing".
  50. Thought A Reluctance of Act with 0 viewings related by tag "action".