Zen & the Art of the Right-Wrong Game

I first got the distinction of the right-wrong game in one of Michael Hadley's Thursday night classes. He was a Tony Robbins & Werner Erhard (via somebody named Oly?) student & teacher, at that time, anyway. The right-wrong game is also called the I'm not wrong game, & the you're wrong game & the you're not right game.

Essentially we played a game which was a physical metaphor for human dialogue. It was a simple arm wrestle until we played it almost on automatic & not out of skill. The game began to take on a life of it's on - behold the pure machinery of the human from which falls the human condition emerged.

Some said that the human brain - the program anyway - always has to be right! What else would you expect evolution to create ? Can you escape it? Can you get out of the need to defend & hold others who disagree with you as wrong? The answer is - just briefly. There are rare moments outside this programming machinery which happen in enlightened joyful escape - moments which show up maybe one or two times in a lifetime. The machinery might call that a disease. Sadly, these moments crust over like a volcano & we are back at square one looking to beat the game - making the machinery wrong!

Perhaps the ugliest result of the right-wrong game is suicide - yes suicide. In suicide you are right and everyone else is wrong & god is wrong for putting you in that position. Or, you are wrong & everyone else is right - but you are right about that & so forth ....

Why do I bring it up? Well, I recently had a nice discussion on politics. If you ever want to see things go on automatic have a political discussion with somebody close, of the opposite persuasion & point of view.. This is the substance out of which wars & murder are made - the ultimate right-wrong game gone very, very badly (& wrong!)

Comments

Mark de LA says

Let there be an emergence of loving consciousness fructified by the Golden Rule !

Mark de LA says
BTW, this automaticity of the right-wrong game is one way to experience how much a part of the wiring & machinery Ahriman & Lucifer have penetrated.

Seth says

This relates tangentially to what i referred to yesterday as "the loop" ... or "being smart enough to know that you are in a loop with your nemesis and being smart enough to get out of it". I know u are cumming from it from a different and zen point of view; but i am concerned with both parties getting out of the loop. and it is doubtful that both parties will get out of the loop, if either party assumes that they must be right.

Take the Israelis and the Palestinians. Neither is necessarily right or necessarily wrong, yet they hold mutually exclusive positions. How do you get out of that loop?

Political negotiation is a high art.

seth

Mark de LA says

Yep, it's kinda a loop in the brain's programming. And, you are in the loop or game if you make the brain's programming wrong. Maybe it's a catch-22, but then if that is bad & you make it wrong .......> infinity.

Mark de LA says

What am I not thinking about now ? .... is another wonderful loop question.

Seth says

M 2007-02-04 07:35:43 1722

seth 2007-02-03 13:12:10 1722

M 2007-02-03 13:07:27 1722

Unto what purpose & in what context?

Next time you use the term let us see what it has to do with zen motion.

I use the term & distinction RWG to point out that some discussion has reverted from friendly debate into the automatism of the RWG - my machinery vs your machinery - & further persuit down that hole is not likely to go anywhere but down. I don't know what else you were expecting; your cryptic challenge notwithstanding. There is nothing about zen motion in there. You are the dynamist. Zen usually looks for peace & oneness in harmony with nature & the Tao.

Strange, when i notice that debate has degenerated, i stop responding ... you do one more transaction saying "rwg". Many times when you say "rwg" i am dissapointed in that it seems to me that the debate is at the point of getting somewhere. But i suspect this is pretty symetrical and when i stop responding you have a feeling that your point was missed. Of course i don't know how you feel, perhaps you will tell me. The Zen of the thing is not playing the game (or playing the game and knowing it is a useless game) ... but it feels kind of unconfortable to a person when their opponent unilateraly can get their jollies by calling "rwg" just at the point where progress seems to be imminent. It does feel like you steal a point. Now, there is certainly no point in keeping the transactions going past the point of any useful understanding happening, but perhaps we can invent a more creative way to terminate debate. May i suggest just summarizing your position and puting a "end" afterwards.

Mark de LA says

seth 2005-10-27 06:31:06 1722

Take the Israelis and the Palestinians. Neither is necessarily right or necessarily wrong, yet they hold mutually exclusive positions. How do you get out of that loop?

seth

By assuming, stating or holding that there is something wrong with the behavior of the Israelis and the Palestinians you are right back in the RWG! Kewl, huh ? The machinery is perfect! Rarely will you (or anyone else) escape.

Mark de LA says

And here is the ultimate kicker: by disagreeing that getting out of the RWG is a Zen like rare moment in the lives of humans puts you squarely in the middle of the RWG or shows that your understanding of this definition is missing something. Or, possibly, you are a Zen master who has reached such an unusual level of enlightenment that you probably would not be blogging & reading blogs at this moment.

Mark de LA says

Coming from the perspective that "there is something wrong here" is, simply put, NOT Zen. The definition of the right-wrong game offered here is a Zen perspective. It is not a debate. It like Zen may be something that will or maybe not contribute to a more peaceful & harmonious world outlook for you. If not, move on!

Mark de LA says

Seth: ... What i do see here is that one can look at a situation as simply process ... as change (or even no change) and not identify on'es own ego with either side of the change ... not pushing in any direction. That then would be the state of NOT RWG.

... nope! The distinction of the RWG is mostly about the automaticity of needing to be right, not wrong or assigning blame & wrongness to another person. That defines a machinery that is part of the programming of today's human being. It shows up in the mind & in behavior without conscious intervention. You will identify it with yourself. Dostoevsky's The Double shows one aspect of it. The same goes for RS's distinction - involving the beings of Lucifer & Ahriman. You don't need Anthroposophy or Dostoevsky to identify it's existence, however. Feeling proud that you can reach a compromise is yet another aspect - you are making yourself right for the compromise. Nothing is wrong here. How you participate in life (exempting some Zen Masters) is bound to include the "game". If you find yourself in an intractable life of combat & argumentation though you may want someday to back out a little bit & ponder whether or not you are under the hypnotic spell of the makers of that particular program & machinery of your mind.

- "Pride is Lucifer's less-than-human shape." is a thought to be found in Book Chameleon hex #5 line 3.

Seth says
What i do see here is that one can look at a situation as simply process ... as change (or even no change) and not identify on'es own ego with either side of the change ... not pushing in any direction. That then would be the state of NOT RWG. Perhaps that is what you are getting at ... if it is then fine ... i get it.

But for me that is the state of the fool on the hill. You see, i almost worship action ... it is hard for me to see value in a non participatory state. My pie is not in the sky ... it is here on the ground ... between my birth and my death ... when i know my actions have consequences. The lasting value of those actions is the effect they have on the future of life in the universe.

Mark de LA says

seth 2007-02-02 16:35:34 1722

Well me thinks that "being right" where no other proposition is "wrong" is pretty much like one hand clapping, a one sided coin, or having good with no evil ... a zen circle made of the white side but with nothing there to know it exist. I don't know if i have ever encountered it ... perhaps a detailed example would be in order. But i do agree with you that "That defines a machinery that is part of the programming of today's human being" and that "Feeling proud that you can reach a compromise is yet another aspect [of] making yourself right". Most of us do try to do the right thing regardless of what other people do and frequently that is not a transaction directed against those doing the wrong thing. But i don't think you can have the concept called "right" without the concept called "wrong". It just does not work. I'll bet that we are even in agreement on that ... but i wonder if you will start you response with "nope!" ...

One does not have to be "right" or "wrong" to enjoy life & be consciously present right now. IMHO, you are still locked outside the distinction somewhere within a prison of rhetoric & debate.

Seth says

M 2007-02-03 09:46:44 1722

The closer you get to NOW with your consciousness - the closer you get to shedding the prison of mind & mind phenomena. The RWG is one of the phenomena of mind.

Ok, i have no doubt that "RWG is one of the phenomena of mind". But "shedding the prison of mind & mind phenomena" sounds like some kind of meditation. Now meditation can certainly help create clam and a level headed approach to problems. But mediating will do nothing to actually solve real social, political, and technical problems ... unless of course there were no problems to begin with. It is to solve those problems that we must call upon the faculties of mind. Mental activity with the end to make mind itself go away will not solve a singel real problem on this Earth. Hense my question: does your Zen of the RWG assume that all real value is in domains other than we are conscious of between our birth and our death?

Mark de LA says

seth 2007-02-03 09:09:42 1722

Could distinguish "the distinction" from gnosticism ? Gnosticism regards "nature and the material world as flawed, corrupt, if not downright evil". It "is the recognition of the presence of the Higher Self, the spark of Divinity trapped in matter, but only an elite few can realize this awareness and liberate themselves from blind enslavement to this world".

You need some form of a complete sentence to introduce your thought.

I will presume that you are comparing Zen with gnosticism. I say Zen is NOT gnosticism. I haven't spent a lot of time with gnosticism as a path in itself. I have spent more time with Zen. Zen, essentially aspires to a direct experience of what IS and what is so, mostly with regard to Being. Zen grasps the Universe as ONE. Zen views the mind like a story about what is so, but not the direct experience of what is so. Zen is a very NOW centered ontology of Being. The closer you get to NOW with your consciousness - the closer you get to shedding the prison of mind & mind phenomena. The RWG is one of the phenomena of mind.

Mark de LA says

seth 2007-02-03 10:08:24 1722

M 2007-02-03 09:46:44 1722

-snip-

Hence my question: does your Zen of the RWG assume that all real value is in domains other than we are conscious of between our birth and our death?

Nope ! Actually as I grok Zen it is just the opposite - no mysticism, no dogma, no magick, no mind shit! As far as I can tell there are no gods in it either. A great application of solving real world problems is Zen in the martial arts. Peter Ralston is one who does both martial arts & the inner stuff. His latest book Zen Body-Being applies being present & conscious NOW with all the principles of the architecture of the body & movement as a methodology to being in the physical body. He extrapolates or hints at where else it applies including an obscure paragraph on sex. If you were in your mind thinking about getting hurt you would miss all kinds of opportunities to gain advantage over an opponent. Meditation and Contemplation are tools to get to a "direct experience" which is the best label I have for "it" at this time. One way of thinking about it is to think of contemplation as a way of tuning out the white noise of the mind & irrelevant distractions in order to get to the real signal & heart of the matter of being.

Hence my question: does your Zen of the RWG assume that all real value is in domains other than we are conscious of between our birth and our death?

Mark de LA says

Unto what purpose & in what context? If I were practicing Zen I would probably not be blogging at all. This is not the real world. It is our minds giving forth of our stuff about what is going on in the world. Our stuff about what is at best 2nd hand & usually 10th hand by the time it gets to the blog is rather useless & is as thin as can be (a reflection of smoke in a mirror) in terms of your "action" dynamism.

Seth says

Zen movement and action is a fine dicipline and a good contrast to mental equovication. But I think we need to see how you actually use this "Zen & the Art of the Right-Wrong Game" on fastblogit.

Mark de LA says

Nice picture though!

Seth says

M 2007-02-03 13:07:27 1722

Unto what purpose & in what context?

Next time you use the term let us see what it has to do with zen motion.

Mark de LA says

seth 2007-02-03 13:12:10 1722

M 2007-02-03 13:07:27 1722

Unto what purpose & in what context?

Next time you use the term let us see what it has to do with zen motion.

Seth says

M 2007-02-03 13:48:55 1722

Which term ?

rwg

Mark de LA says

Well at this point I would say we are going off-topic - degenerating from the purity of the thoughts about Zen & the Art of the RWG to the style of debate on this blog (.. & some feeling stuff).

I was pretty clear on why I point out RWG - no need to elaborate or summarize (automaticity). One really big clue however is when you call someone a liar. That just one of those hooks that gets me in the game quickly. My response will mostly be to invoke 4413 with a new couplet.

Mark de LA says
Something about the dynamics of the debate on this blog is that the desire for closure & the thrill of getting the last word muddy up a neat & tidy end to a discussion.

Mark de LA says

Zen & the Tao - good reference is here.

Mark de LA says

From the online version of the Tao above comes this nice perspective:
It is because every one under Heaven recognizes beauty as beauty, that the idea of ugliness exists.
And equally if every one recognized virtue as virtue, this would merely create fresh conceptions of wickedness.
For truly, Being and Not-being grow out of one another;
Difficult and easy complete one another.
Long and short test one another;
High and low determine one another.
Pitch and mode give harmony to one another.
Front and back give sequence to one another.
Therefore the Sage relies on actionless activity,
Carries on wordless teaching,
But the myriad creatures are worked upon by him; he does not disown them.
He rears them, but does not lay claim to them,
Controls them, but does not lean upon them,
Achieves his aim, but does not call attention to what he does;
And for the very reason that he does not call attention to what he does
He is not ejected from fruition of what he has done.

hattie says
who is the artist of the featured art work from the entry specified below please?

seth: 2007-02-03 12:59:49

many thanks
hattie

Seth says

hattie 2008-01-14 13:02:59 1722

who is the artist of the featured art work from the entry specified below please?
seth: 2007-02-03 12:59:49
many thanks
hattie

I don't know, but i found it at the Photocraft camera club: www.zen66845.zen.co.uk. Perhaps you can ask them.

jen says
thanks for your site.

Mark de LA says

source: ...
It is well to be able to control ones thoughts feelings & volitions so that rather than enjoying criticism of the mistakes & follies of others we grieve & shed tears; then to blame pains us!

Seth says

M 2008-12-20 05:09:22 1722

seth 2008-12-20 04:51:24 1722

.... the main content ....

Well i tend to agree. The Zen of it is seeing that you are in the Skinner box. The point of seeing, is to get out of the box. But, sorry, posting [item 4413] images at the end of a dialogue ... apparently when you see that you are in the box .... is still staying in the box. To get out of the box, you have to say something new about the subject - or as i frequently do, say nothing at all.

Apparently you have a skinner box whenever you see a quote of 4413 or the picture that goes with it. You must have missed the exit. The point is that the poem illustrates the automaticity & tit-for-tat of the RWG. I often provide a link for anyone besides Seth who doesn't have that reference. In other cases & on other items where the argumentation yields no exit I post such to remind you of what's going on.

or perhaps you could say ... we're doing it again.

Jerry Cooper says
Please contact me if you know where Michael Hadley is or the name of his co. 406-442-4752 helenaironfront@yahoo.com

Mark de LA says

Jerry Cooper 2008-12-04 09:51:51 1722

Please contact me if you know where Michael Hadley is or the name of his co. 406-442-4752 helenaironfront@yahoo.com

Charlene Spillum who organized some of the seminars & I have been searching on and off for some time without results. Perhaps if you have a legitimate reason you might contact Peter Ralston of Cheng Hsin with whom he trained & sparred sometimes. If you do find his email please let me know.

Mark de LA says

M 2008-12-09 10:15:24 1722

Jerry Cooper 2008-12-09 09:21:44 1722

Ole Larsen was the person that developed isa. Hadley was a trainer there for years. Then he went to work for Tony Robbins. Go to Factnet.org and type in isa. A picture of Ole Larsen can be seen at rockys resort newsletter thailand in the pics. He is the one holding the glass of wine. Flip through it and you will see him. isaexperience.com is Larsens co. for what its worth.

Thanks for the info. Michael implied during his Thursday Night Classes that there was a connection between Ole Larsen and Werner Erhard (of EST) - did you know of any?

Is this the picture from the link to which you are referring?

Ole on the right? Who are the others?

Mark de LA says

Link is here - picture is weddings (#7 pic)

Mark de LA says

Jerry Cooper 2008-12-09 09:21:44 1722

Thanks for the info. Michael implied during his Thursday Night Classes that there was a connection between Ole Larsen and Werner Erhard (of EST) - did you know of any?

Mark de LA says

Jerry Cooper 2008-12-09 09:30:57 1722

Go to google type in "an interview with luis cordoba" click where you see "integrity" scroll about half way down the page and you will see a pic. of Luis Cordoba. This is Michael Hadleys partner at isa. These three are questionable. evolving your spirit is the page with cordoba photo

You mean this one from this link?

Mark de LA says

Thanks Jerry, It is unclear whether your remarks apply to Cordorba or Larsen.

jerry cooper says
Do you have a photo of hadley you can post? Pure greed is their motivation.

Mark de LA says

jerry cooper 2008-12-11 09:32:18 1722

That is Luis Cordoba. That is Hadleys partner from isa in the early eighties. Ole P. Larsen is on page 27 of the newsletter. Go to google type in rockys resort newsletter. You need to go to page 27. That is him there with the wine glass. He owns the resort. He was an est trainer for years. He is genuine no. 1 grade A asshole from his teeth to his toes. I spent a lot of time with him on his farm in Tenn. Worked for him where he would get away for rest and relaxation. Lived out there for 7 months. He spent a lot of time there.

So apparently the link is here & the picture of Ole Larsen is below & he owns Ricky's Resort in Thailand:

thanx

jerry cooper says
All three of them Larsen, Hadley and Cordoba. Spit and run, fly by night, quick and dirty.

jerry cooper says
And yes Werner erhard and Larsen were friends for years. They came to disagree on many things and thats when Larsen developed ASA, association of self-actualization, then it was made ISA. He started ASA in 1976 or 77 and by 1980 it was ISA. Greed Greed Greed!!

Mark de LA says

jerry cooper 2008-12-11 09:53:57 1722

I work construction for 30 years. Put them on a jobsite and they would fold like a paper napkin or a lawn chair. All three of them. They like to lull you into a trance state.

I don't have Hadley's picture. I must confess that I don't share your opinions of Michael. I first met him as Tony Robbins ' manager & trainer. By then most of his human foibles were well in the past. His trainings in the Thursday night classes were genuine & did not prey on the wealth of the participants unlike Scientology & other cults are rumored to do. I have also done the LEC Forum & Robbins' certification & still have my feet on the ground. I think that Michael before he dropped out of sight (presumably to marry & make money) was closest in his teaching & style to LEC & the Forum with a slice of Tony Robbins in for the NLP & maybe a shot of Zen. Something must have happened to you to sound as vindictive as you do.

Jerry Cooper says
Exactly............Sounds like you run a pretty tight ship. I had a backstage pass to that little circus. Larsens favorite thing to do was make women cry. For no reason. They are all punks feeding off ignorant people. Any library contains all that info. Any man can pick out a powerful statement or idea and embellish it (soterism) that another person has already stated. He is heavily brainwashed by Ole Larsen as all the other devotees were then.

Mark de LA says

Jerry, you should really master the body of this item - it's about the right-wrong game which you seem to be engaging in with your recent posts. Consider that you are lost in the machinery of your low-priced meat computer (your brain - your mind) & can't escape. Do your best to try & escape & notice, when you do, that what you saying about the other guys applies to yourself in major abundance. You may use this poem for inspiration!

Jerry Cooper says
M, Critical assessment is the key here. You are obviously egosyntonic. One woman at Isa had paid out over 27,000 dollars to Larsen for his garbage. All within about 5 years. I see from your photo that you are a mesomorph. Your body is fat slow and lethargic. I on the other hand prefer ectomorph. Lean quick and not a trace of body fat. A 235 if you will. The fox, always moving foreward quickly looking back laughing, the quintissential 235. (atlas of men). You are a victim of "positioning" known as the battle for your mind. It is a marketing trick adopted by brainwashers. They take up a position in your mind. You are an undifferentated ego mass. You are in the trance state of your familys collusions and introjects. You would be wise to look into John Locke and Rosseau. Mechanistic which you are as opposed to organismic. (hence mesomorph) Erik Ericcsons 8 stages of psychosocial development would help you immensely. Here is a list of books for you that is not....................A Poem...................

Healing from Trauma Jasmin Cori
Trauma and recovery Judith Herman
Children of Trauma Jane Moz
Trapped in the Mirror Elena Golumb
Soul Murder Shengold
Traumatic Experience and the Brain
Waking the Tiger Peter Levine.

Assertion is not proof of fact or evidence and multiplication of examples and metaphor is not proof of fact or evidence. You look to be the victim of the negative mother complex. Myth is the best way to explain it. Medusa is the symbol of the neg. mother complex. Part of the Gorgon. When Medusa was killed Pegasus was born out of Medusas dead body. The horse is the oldest symbol humans have for raw instinctual unbridled power. When the neg. mother is killed symbolically within you your raw instinctual power can be unleashed. That you are one of Hadleys cheerleaders. You also look like a fork and spoon operator from the local Dennys.

Ole larsen Michael Hadley and Luis Cordoba were riding down the road in the back of Larsens limosuine one day and spotted a man and his wife and three children on all fours eating the grass on the side of the road. Larsen ordered his driver to stop. Larsen rolls down the window and asks the man what he is doing. The man replies that he lost his job and all his posessions and his family is forced to eat grass. Larsen looks at him and says, Jump in, I will take you to my house, the grass is over a foot tall.

All I wanted was Hadleys no. I could care less about right or wrong. I work construction.......

Jerry Cooper says
You seem asleep on many levels. That is how they take your money. And sex is their main objective. Sex as a way to enlightenment. They have sex with piles of women. Larsen was a disgusting 47 year old man when I met him. But he had a 22 year old wife.(Torren) The one before her was 23(Donna)You are one of hadleys cheerleaders. Open some books other that zen.

Jerry Cooper says
Heres meat computer for you. You need Erich Fromm, Rollo May, Abraham Maslow, BF Skinner, Karen Horney, Erik Erricson, Locke, Rosseau, and so on. You are ignorant arent you. Ignorant as a pig in shit

Jerry Cooper says
Next time you are feeding a squirrel Know this, Larsen sliced the throat of a dog on that farm because it killed geese that no pond for escape. A living breathing dog with a heartbeat and pulse. Sliced its throat buddy.......

Mark de LA says

Jerry Cooper 2008-12-19 09:45:57 1722

You seem asleep on many levels. That is how they take your money. And sex is their main objective. Sex as a way to enlightenment. They have sex with piles of women. Larsen was a disgusting 47 year old man when I met him. But he had a 22 year old wife.(Torren) The one before her was 23(Donna)You are one of hadleys cheerleaders. Open some books other that zen.

Obviously you need more work on mastering the right-wrong game distinction. To me you are, however, a master of psychobabble. Because I do not have your jaundiced take on Michael does not mean I am his cheerleader. He got married, had a child & dropped out some time ago from the seminar junkie circuit (as did I). Michael or Ole must have fucked some chick that you had your eyes on for you to exhibit such bitterness. Maybe you can't get it up anymore, who knows? You sound jealous of men who have young wives. If you want to continue along this vein, you will have to create your own group & your own id because I will have a strong urge to delete what you post if you do. This happens to be my group & I do the policing of the material which shows up here for quality. If you want to provide & share your own take on what you learned from your mentors (without the RWG) - you are welcome!

Mark de LA says

seth 2008-12-19 10:13:05 1722

M seems to be alone in his belief that there is Zen in the right-wrong game. Me thinks that if he calls it Zen it gives him an excuse to play it.

Nope! You may need a bit of Zen to grok the right-wrong game in yourself! It's more like you lack Zen while playing the right-wrong game. Because I disagree with you & speak or write about it does not necessarily mean I am playing the RWG. The right-wrong game is best illustrated by 4413 where little conscious control takes hold. Zen is more a point of view that sees everything from unity - good & evil, black & white, right & wrong all disappear into ONE!

Seth says

M 2008-12-19 10:24:35 1722

seth 2008-12-19 10:13:05 1722

M seems to be alone in his belief that there is Zen in the right-wrong game. Me thinks that if he calls it Zen it gives him an excuse to play it.

Mark de LA says

seth 2008-12-20 04:51:24 1722

.... the main content ....

Mark de LA says

Perhaps!

I was looking around for the word automaticity this morning to see if it is a real word & found it in the Wikipedia. I like in particular their see also section which includes the item Brain Fart. Perhaps that is the exit we have all been looking for.

Mark de LA says

... or perhaps we (or some of us) are looking for the

's plastic habit.

Alan Stewart says
All three of them Larsen, Hadley and Cordoba. Spit and run, fly by night, quick and dirty.

I have just stumbled across your website and I must respond to the above post by jerry cooper.

I should like to say that I did the ISA experience many years ago under the supervision of both Ole Larson and Luis Cordoba. It greatly helped me in my lifes path, I remember it fondly and I am very thankful I did it. Both Ole and Luis are lovely kind men of high integrity as anyone that knows them personally will vouch and it pains me to read these unfounded lies posted here.

Mark de LA says

Alan Stewart 2009-02-25 07:11:03 1722

All three of them Larsen, Hadley and Cordoba. Spit and run, fly by night, quick and dirty.

I have just stumbled across your website and I must respond to the above post by jerry cooper.

I should like to say that I did the ISA experience many years ago under the supervision of both Ole Larson and Luis Cordoba. It greatly helped me in my lifes path, I remember it fondly and I am very thankful I did it. Both Ole and Luis are lovely kind men of high integrity as anyone that knows them personally will vouch and it pains me to read these unfounded lies posted here.

The comments are owned by their respective authors. I only knew Michael Hadley. He gave good & interesting seminars. I don't know where he is. Cooper obviously missed the point on some of the material.

Mark de LA says

onebadapple 2009-10-30 15:07:56 1722

I was exposed to ISA and Ole, Luis, and Michael in 1980 when I was 10 years old. At the time Ole was married to Donna and Michael was married to my mothers best friend. My parents were heavily into ISA for about a year. We spent that summer at the Leapers Fork compound "working the program". Yes - its a cult. The ideas have all been ripped off from decent sources and are ideal tools for luring the "lost". Back then it was full of yuppies. Funny: many of his faithful sheep (all friends of my mom)were dressed in stylish shades of red following Bhagwan Rajneesh by mid 1983.

Tell us more about yourself & such experiences. I met Michael ~ 1988 after a fire walk with Tony Robbins. Michael was acting president for Tony & ran his office in La Jolla, CA. He was a decent person & I attended a lot of his Thursady Night Tiger/Dragon classes at HQ. What do you think were his sources that got perverted at ISA?

Seth says

C 2011-06-01 09:58:35 1722

The RWG is simply a distinction about the way the human wet computer works. The hard wiring of the physical brain exhibits behavior as if it is always right (& the other +/-) permutations of that distinction. Getting out of that program, transcending it, requires an ability to think outside the physical brain. Doubt about doing that or how to do that is for some other item. Argument for its non-existence defies observation by many outside of this writer. Reframing, deframing & conceptualizing it away defy experience. Try, for example, conceptualizing away your feet or genitals & see how far you get.

I see RWG as just one mode of interacting and not as "hard wired" inside the brain. Lots of times it is not even there in my thinking and interactions. But once i am in it, i think i can get out of it by focusing my attention of what the other party is saying and really understanding that. That is, for me, the not-RWG mode of interacting. Of course you can't force other people to adopt the not-RWG mode ... i don't know what to do in that case ... what i do in that case is to go do something else.

I like you're idea on thoughts coming from outside the brain ... from the spiritual world, or for that matter wherever ... but not stamped and owned by yourself. Connecting that idea to RWG mode and not-RWG mode might be interesting.

C says

Someone above has a serious, unfriendly, RWG going against Michael Hadley which conflicts with my experience of him. It serves another example of the game itself. Some, (me) , call the thingy a Right-Wrong trance because one of it's qualities is automaticity or the lack of control of the egos involved.

Mark de LA says

Perhaps, I have over-emphasized the automaticity or hard-wiredness of the RWG. True, it is not always there & probably, as with other foibles of human behavior may be trained out. Buddha's eightfold path might be a start ... or as in KoHW (RS).

As a child I always wondered how to lift the veil on the Spiritual World. I speculated & later accepted that thoughts were the vehicle or gateway. Much later I realized that they were part of it. The older I grow the more I can see them as all one thing not needing to separate the Spiritual World from all the rest. In the RWG, IMHO, Lucifer & Ahriman battle for whatever lest in agreement we become one. Michael Hadley (see above), in our Tiger Dragon seminar had us arm wrestle with a partner each time saying "I'm right" as we pulled the partner's arm over & then the other did the same with ours. It did become automatic - for some more than others. In politics it has almost reduced itself to a slogan. Partisanship is decried of the other party as if everything would be so nifty if everyone else would agree with "us"; just another trick in the RWG. I more or less embrace it now as part of the Yin/Yang of the eternal Tao.

Seth says

source: MR above
I more or less embrace it now as part of the Yin/Yang of the eternal Tao.

Well if "the Yin/Yang of the eternal Tao" is everything, then RWG must of necessity be part of it

Mark de LA says

seth 2011-06-03 08:58:59 1722

source: MR above
I more or less embrace it now as part of the Yin/Yang of the eternal Tao.

Well if "the Yin/Yang of the eternal Tao" is everything, then RWG must of necessity be part of it

Yep, making it wrong is also part of itself & the Tao. So is evil & Jeffrey Dahmer.

Mark de LA says

I recently ran into some lectures translated by Rick Mansell which discuss the double in much more detail than I had read up to that point. I think they were by a man called Buchleitner. The net is that there is an Ahrimanic & Luciferic double (Doppelganger) in each of the 4 "bodies". A person can't tell because they all seem to be him/her or one personality. Each pulls in a different direction on the human being in evolution. They may or not be available through : the Rosenkreutz Publishing Center
. Developing Spirit-Self, Life-Spirit & Spirit-Man out of this mess is kinda the rose growing out of the manure pile - one way out of the RWG , possibly.

Mark de LA says

MR 2012-03-13 11:22:53 1722

seth 2012-03-13 11:18:53 1722

Horshit! It's just a bad habit.

QED - rationality not being your strong suit here either!

I have a distinction I call it blue - you have a distinction of a different color (black?) and claim you have blue - go figure!

Seth says

Horshit! It's just a bad habit.

Mark de LA says

The RWG (or Right-Wrong-Game) is a distinction about ordinary self. You either get it or not, but automaticity is a major part of the distinction. If you try to argue that point you are talking about a different distinction & probably deep in the RWG itself! You can't help it because of the automaticity. You may have a distinction similar or a dilemma of a different color - I don't know.
Confused?

Mark de LA says

seth 2012-03-14 09:11:46 1722

Here is a good illustration of your terrible game ...

Thanks to Kyle Fite here.

This is a better one:

How KEWL we have a nested RWG going on here!!

Seth says

Here is a good illustration of your terrible game ...

Thanks to Kyle Fite here.

Mark de LA says

seth 2012-03-14 08:55:29 1722

MR 2012-03-13 11:24:18 1722

MR 2012-03-13 11:22:53 1722

seth 2012-03-13 11:18:53 1722

Horshit! It's just a bad habit.

QED - rationality not being your strong suit here either!

I have a distinction I call it blue - you have a distinction of a different color (black?) and claim you have blue - go figure!

The RWG is not a distinction. It is a behavior. We can just stop doing it.

As a metaphor look at the game as interference between channels ... stereo left and stereo right ... you can listening to both channels at the same time ... or you can invert the left channel, introduce noise, and then pipe it into the right channel ... if you can listen to the topic that way and hear anything useful ... let me know how you do it ... because i can't.

Bozo's Dilemma #2 (what you are talking about) may be a bad habit which, obviously, you cant stop & haven't stopped since the recent resurrection . You are in outer space in your channel stuff. I appreciate you have something interesting to yourself there but it is coming out like static over here & the association to the RWG increases the static. Please adopt a new name for your discovery & the channels may clear up.

Seth says

i liked Kyle's because it shows both sides from a third perspective.

It just dawned on me what you may be doing here ... especially with your Zen/Warner Erhard association. The idea there was to do the game so much that you get a kind of Zen enlightening. Is that what your Zen association of this terrible game is all about?

Seth says

MR 2012-03-14 09:23:59 1722

seth 2012-03-14 08:55:29 1722

MR 2012-03-13 11:24:18 1722

MR 2012-03-13 11:22:53 1722

seth 2012-03-13 11:18:53 1722

Horshit! It's just a bad habit.

QED - rationality not being your strong suit here either!

I have a distinction I call it blue - you have a distinction of a different color (black?) and claim you have blue - go figure!

Well, yeah mixed media is my project ... just like apparently rwg is yours.

Looking at the other person as the other stereo channel ... might just be the antidote for playing rwg and thinking that you can not stop ... which of course you can. Consider it, how is it going to hurt you?

Seth says

source: m above
The best point I can offer for clarity is that when you recognize the RWG for what it is that you not even hold the RWG as wrong

I'm glad you finally said that

... because that is exactly where we disagree. RWG, although apparently pervasive and hard to totally eliminate, is nonetheless a waste of time ... and what is more it obstructs practical progress. I truely do not understand the long time benefits of cranking it up. But i do see that doing an exercise like the one you described at the seminar might lead people to recognize more when they are behaving badly.

Mark de LA says

seth 2012-03-14 09:44:36 1722

MR 2012-03-14 09:23:59 1722

seth 2012-03-14 08:55:29 1722

MR 2012-03-13 11:24:18 1722

MR 2012-03-13 11:22:53 1722

seth 2012-03-13 11:18:53 1722

Horshit! It's just a bad habit.

QED - rationality not being your strong suit here either!

I have a distinction I call it blue - you have a distinction of a different color (black?) and claim you have blue - go figure!

It is fascinating that you think you can stop & haven't stopped yet "being right about your point of view" illustrating the reason I started putting Q.E.D at the end of some posts. Still, just not responding in the blogs or shutting up while still maintining your position as right in your head & heart won't cut it either.

For me it is more like RS's Luciferic Double, but you may prefer to play with the more mechanistic Ahrimanic Double with your channels & media. The best point I can offer for clarity is that when you recognize the RWG for what it is that you not even hold the RWG as wrong - then progress may show up! Your mileage, as often, will probably differ.

Mark de LA says

seth 2012-03-14 10:59:35 1722

source: m above
The best point I can offer for clarity is that when you recognize the RWG for what it is that you not even hold the RWG as wrong

I'm glad you finally said that

I am surprised you didn't recognize the double-nesting of the RWG by holding it wrong.

If you can't then you are still practicing the RWG.

Mark de LA says

seth 2013-08-11 09:35:49 1722

source: mark in the body of the item

Can you get out of the need to defend & hold others who disagree with you as wrong? The answer is - just briefly. There are rare moments outside this programming machinery which happen in enlightened joyful escape - moments which show up maybe one or two times in a lifetime.

I think there is a great deal of variability between individuals here as to how easily people can "get out" of this behavior. This is not only a individual thing but also a cultural one. In fact in some cultures people avoid the conflict where one looses and the other wins and instead almost always cooperate. so these "moments would not be rare", but rather frequent.

But what is true for me, is that if i am interacting with a person who is insisting that they must be right and i must be wrong, it is very difficult (and rare) for me to respond to them without saying that they must be mistaken.

I think that just about anyone can cultivate this factor! The challenge is to stay with the points of view difference without the RWG - hence in some cases rise to a level above the individuals involved (something like Buddha did & the Meta Model of NLP) What obscure south american indian tribe did you study to find someone exhibiting the bold blue remark?

Seth says

Einai 2014-06-20 11:59:36 1722

seth 2014-06-20 11:48:18 1722

Well be these daemons or just bad habits ... i still think it is a error to glorify them ... or to think that that they can be escaped "just briefly" and are "moments which show up two times in a lifetime". Most people which whom i come in contact seem to avoid these habits as a matter of course. But, yes, many do become obsessed with them ... and even use the quoted philosophies here to rationalize it.

I like your kewl preemption strategy on 17317 . It may be that Choronzon arises within you as a habit or any other kind of being even the one of preemption - casting ahead a latent rwg moment.

to which I reply
ZZzzz...

well that wasn't the result i was expecting ... er, a pleasant surprise

.

You and i have a special relationship to this particular habit/daemon between us ... i think it is high time that we realized it. In other words everybody is not always doing it quite so obsessively as we are ... and even we are not doing it equally to each other. I think it might actually be instructive to notice who usually starts it first ... and then how it progresses. And then, of course, how that meta behavior affects the topic at hand. I actually do think we can learn to almost totally avoid it. Wouldn't that be a blast?

Mark de LA says

See also Choronzon in the Wikipedia. I like the Thelemic description as well as the rest as a characterization of the Ego-being of the RWG.

Wikipedia: ... The name of the Dweller in the Abyss is Choronzon, but he is not really an individual. The Abyss is empty of being; it is filled with all possible forms, each equally inane, each therefore evil in the only true sense of the word—that is, meaningless but malignant, in so far as it craves to become real. These forms swirl senselessly into haphazard heaps like dust devils, and each such chance aggregation asserts itself to be an individual and shrieks, "I am I!" though aware all the time that its elements have no true bond; so that the slightest disturbance dissipates the delusion just as a horseman, meeting a dust devil, brings it in showers of sand to the earth."

...

The question of good or evil shall be left to some other item.

Seth says

Mark de LA says

seth 2014-06-20 11:48:18 1722

I like your kewl preemption strategy on 17317 . It may be that Choronzon arises within you as a habit or any other kind of being even the one of preemption - casting ahead a latent rwg moment.

to which I reply
ZZzzz...

Mark de LA says

seth 2014-06-20 12:28:04 1722

Einai 2014-06-20 11:59:36 1722

seth 2014-06-20 11:48:18 1722

I like your kewl preemption strategy on 17317 . It may be that Choronzon arises within you as a habit or any other kind of being even the one of preemption - casting ahead a latent rwg moment.

to which I reply
ZZzzz...

well that wasn't the result i was expecting ... er, a pleasant surprise

I am unclear what your bolded statement is pointing at if anything. Most people are unaware that the RWG is a game & usually think "you are making me wrong..." or "The Tea Party is wrong!" etc. Since T & I got the distinction at the same seminar we have even made an RWG out of the RWG which is RWG^2- at times we have to not even mention the rwg. To be conscious of it can just explode the game especially the part where we look for who started it.
Tina found this on Facebook (Jeff Foster Quotes) - real kewl poetry on the subject of right & wrong. I find it more inspiring than any intellectual assessment of argumentation. (Rumi is often quoted by Deepak Chopra)

Seth says

Einai 2014-06-20 14:25:21 1722

seth 2014-06-20 12:28:04 1722

Einai 2014-06-20 11:59:36 1722

seth 2014-06-20 11:48:18 1722

I like your kewl preemption strategy on 17317 . It may be that Choronzon arises within you as a habit or any other kind of being even the one of preemption - casting ahead a latent rwg moment.

to which I reply
ZZzzz...

well that wasn't the result i was expecting ... er, a pleasant surprise

Well certainly, like Rumi, I am always wanting desperately to go, "beyond ideas of right and wrong" which is why i always go tilt on this art of playing it.

What my bolded statement refers to is the same thing that your "some" refers to in your sentence above, "Some said that the human brain - the program anyway - always has to be right". If it is true that a human always has to be right, then we always have a giant excuse to play the game. Me, i don't think it is true ... and i don't always play the game ... i have no such excuse ... and in fact i avoid playing it every chance i get.

Mark de LA says

seth 2014-06-21 07:08:57 1722

Einai 2014-06-20 14:25:21 1722

seth 2014-06-20 12:28:04 1722

Einai 2014-06-20 11:59:36 1722

seth 2014-06-20 11:48:18 1722

I like your kewl preemption strategy on 17317 . It may be that Choronzon arises within you as a habit or any other kind of being even the one of preemption - casting ahead a latent rwg moment.

to which I reply
ZZzzz...

well that wasn't the result i was expecting ... er, a pleasant surprise

Well certainly, like Rumi, I am always wanting desperately to go, "beyond ideas of right and wrong" which is why i always go tilt on this art of playing it.

What my bolded statement refers to is the same thing that your "some" refers to in your sentence above, "Some said that the human brain - the program anyway - always has to be right". If it is true that a human always has to be right, then we always have a giant excuse to play the game. Me, i don't think it is true ... and i don't always play the game ... i have no such excuse ... and in fact i avoid playing it every chance i get.

I think you delude yourself - it's kinda the cheesie thingy. I suspect that you either run away from the whatever situation caused you to think you are right or another is wrong -OR- you make the RWG wrong & go for being aloof from it thinking you are right about doing so. Enjoy!

Mark de LA says

... as a postscript there is too much evidence here at fbi to believe your assertions, eh?

Seth says

Then too we can make up another game ... recognizing what is right with the other. That game is just as addictive ... and has the advantage of being sustainable. Tearing the other down ends up with tearing down the fabric of being together causing people to become isolated from each other ... and hence inevitably the game must stop. Not so with win/win ... that can go on forever.

Try it ... recognize something right in somebody and tell them about it ... see if that doesn't start something good happening.

I mean who says we must play win/loose, when win/win is more fun?

Mark de LA says

seth 2014-06-24 06:11:53 1722

Try it ... recognize something right in somebody and tell them about it ... see if that doesn't start something good happening.

I mean who says we must play win/loose, when win/win is more fun?

Almost kewl if it were clear & one had the ability to discern what is right with/in another - maybe the ability to tell right from wrong unless you want to just make something up & see if it sticks. I like the Golden Rule thingy myself.

Seth says

Einai 2014-06-24 06:17:53 1722

seth 2014-06-24 06:11:53 1722

Try it ... recognize something right in somebody and tell them about it ... see if that doesn't start something good happening.

I mean who says we must play win/loose, when win/win is more fun?

i don't think one recognizes what is withing another ... rather just what one can observer from the outside. i used the word "right" here just to be symmetrical with your right/wrong game ... but it could be any positive quality that is recognized ... could be anything positive recognized that the other did, said, or manifested a feeling about. These would not be things made up to see if they stick ... these would be actual things recognized about the other ... and i think it actually is practicing the golden rule ... same thing, nothing different from that rubric ... i mean i sure as hell like when somebody recognizes something that i did right and tells me about it ... why should i not do the same for them.

Mark de LA says

seth 2014-06-24 06:31:21 1722

Einai 2014-06-24 06:17:53 1722

seth 2014-06-24 06:11:53 1722

Try it ... recognize something right in somebody and tell them about it ... see if that doesn't start something good happening.

I mean who says we must play win/loose, when win/win is more fun?

So maybe judgement is being made & you want to cull out what you judge as positive from your perspective & tell another about it. .... & that is the right part of the right-wrong game ... but different because it is in another & not the right part within you? Can we call that the "agreement game" ?

Seth says

Einai 2014-06-24 06:51:49 1722

seth 2014-06-24 06:31:21 1722

Einai 2014-06-24 06:17:53 1722

seth 2014-06-24 06:11:53 1722

Try it ... recognize something right in somebody and tell them about it ... see if that doesn't start something good happening.

I mean who says we must play win/loose, when win/win is more fun?

Yes, calling it the "agreement game" works for me

. Zen and the Art of playing the Agreement Game

... er, yes ... the right might just be in the other ... and that doesn't even mean there there is a wrong in you.

Mark de LA says

... Whatever - if you would like you could put your idea on a different item since this one is quite full with **+ comments,

Seth says

Einai 2014-06-24 07:14:14 1722

... Whatever - if you would like you could put your idea on a different item since this one is quite full with **+ comments,

good idea

IamanI says

seth 2015-10-01 04:05:29 1722

IamanI 2015-09-30 23:58:08 1722

seth 2015-09-30 21:40:33 1722

Well I don't think there is any automatic need for people to protect their ego when they encounter a disagreement. Sure, i've seen some hyper-sensitivity like that, but i've also seen confident people not even act like there was a challenge to themselves, and i've seen others become curious, and others just react to resolve the disagreemt.

Try it & see how it works out for you the rest of your life!

Well yes definitely!

The less i tie my being right or wrong, to sombody else's being right or wrong, the better things go ... or said differently, respecting their being, in it's own right, is the most honest thing i can do.

Such behavior might be like the Golden Rule in one perspective - good idea - hard to put in practice due to haggling & the munge-factor. I suspect that if you commit, especially for the the rest of your life, you will eventually - if not next - run into the automatic need.

Seth says

IamanI says

seth 2015-09-30 21:40:33 1722

Try it & see how it works out for you the rest of your life!

Seth says

IamanI 2015-09-30 23:58:08 1722

seth 2015-09-30 21:40:33 1722

Try it & see how it works out for you the rest of your life!

Well yes definitely!

IamanI says

seth 2015-09-30 16:12:34 1722

IamanI 2015-09-30 12:16:24 1722

seth 2015-09-30 12:06:27 1722

IamanI 2015-09-30 10:25:22 1722

seth 2015-09-30 10:20:28 1722

IamanI 2015-09-30 09:56:15 1722

source: ... The right-wrong game is also called the I'm not wrong game, & the you're wrong game & the you're not right game.

... some people apparently also don't understand the corollaries I'm right & you are not ; I am right & the only one who is ; I'm more right than you are; we're both right but you are talking about something else; & all the other permutations where right <-> not wrong and wrong <-> not right.
Even obscuring the game by pretending that we are both right but disagree (or we agree to disagree - ugggg!) is just another nested play within the game which is still the RWG.

yep all of those are variations of this game ... but it is not the only game in town.

yep that's the red response - maybe it IS the only game, but I wasn't saying that either.

ok. if those are the only choices, then it must be one of them. Can we investigate the possibility that there are other choices?

Apparently you would like to go off into the deflection game like talking about something else, eh?

Why is agree-agree not in the choices?

Nice question.

Agree-agree is not automatic like the RWG is because there is no need of selfie to protect when people agree with you. Probably why facebook has no

IamanI says

seth 2015-09-30 12:06:27 1722

IamanI 2015-09-30 10:25:22 1722

seth 2015-09-30 10:20:28 1722

IamanI 2015-09-30 09:56:15 1722

source: ... The right-wrong game is also called the I'm not wrong game, & the you're wrong game & the you're not right game.

yep all of those are variations of this game ... but it is not the only game in town.

yep that's the red response - maybe it IS the only game, but I wasn't saying that either.

ok. if those are the only choices, then it must be one of them. Can we investigate the possibility that there are other choices?

Apparently you would like to go off into the deflection game like talking about something else, eh?

Holmes says
Suicide? Seriously? Well, in a sense that is true.

RWG is about one thing, trying to get others to validate your reality, getting them to accept and acknowledge it. Nothing more.

Suicide is about feeling powerless. It is a last grand effort to gain back your power by proving to all those who have power over you that they don’t have power over that one thing. So in a small sense, it is about rwg. But in a much bigger sense, it is about regaining your power. Becoming again the God you know inside that you really are … even though it doesn’t actually work that way.

Mark de LA says

Mark de LA 2016-06-01 10:28:34 [item 1722#52512]

Since Facebook took it upon themselves to remind me of this item from 11 years ago (they said 5), I decided to check to see if Michael Hadley’s mentor Ole Larsen was still alive. Jury is out. But the residue of ISA still is.
Institute for Self-Actualization – sounds pretty boring compared to the Forum (LEC) or Tony Robbins.

Seth 2016-06-02 07:03:30 [item 1722#52515]

well i’ve found that the texture of the focus and actualization of trains of thought, feeling, and action in society pretty much matches that within myself. perhaps an example here would be that the last news posting of ISA was October 14th, 2015 and the one before that way back in 2014, over two years ago ← i don’t know, your closer to that than i am. all of these self improvement crazes come and go in our society and in our minds. the macrocosm reflecting the microcosm. i mean would you judge fastblogit “still alive” if you came back in a year and found nothing new.

Mark de LA 2016-06-02 07:31:32 [item 1722#52519]

… jumble of words .. ?? I told you why I posted it… read the comments … this is the only place I mention ole in fbi

Seth 2016-06-02 08:10:52 [item 1722#52529]

well that is not a jumble of words at all to me … i reread them and they still remain true … althought with some editing i could even imporve their representation of my meaning.

My intention was to find in your comment an example of the inner subjective microcosm being a reflection of the same thing happening in society at large. It is a frequent train of thought with me … and also one that is talked about by others. Haven’t you also noticed that what goes on in society is also very similar in texture to that which goes on in your mind? ← can you not think that thought yourself ?

I could, but I won’t! Society is a catch-word for projecting one’s individual horse-shit on others & a whole lot of other ills – politics included. When your ideas get clearer maybe post them somewhere else.

Mark de LA says

Seth 2016-06-02 07:07:02 [item 1722#52516]

incidentally why did you post your obsevations re ISA on this thought … is that where you got your focus on RWG?

Mark de LA 2016-06-02 07:49:41 [item 1722#52525]

I got the rwg from Michael Hadley as explained somewhere above.

Seth 2016-06-02 08:04:35 [item 1722#52527]

and now that you have tested it out, low these many years, do you still think we should focus on RWG? How does being hyper aware and hyper sensitive to RWG improve our lives? I really am curious about your evaluation on that consciousness. ← please, please do not consider that RWG itself.

Mark de LA 2016-06-02 08:17:08 [item 1722#52530]

You missed the first corollary of the RWG – making RWG wrong (your written tonality says you do otherwise see N’s comments) – is just more of the game. Nobody except you is talking the H-word (hyper). Explain yourself to yourself. This item was written 3872 days ago (~10.6 years) & was added to over that time. Some hate it when they realize that their responses & interactions are so robotic. Others are still unconscious. PR doesn’t use the term RWG, but was a mentor of Michael’s. When you become fully conscious of your bottom line make-up you can begin to transform from a robotic personality to something wholly without guile & manipulation – the fun continues from there in freedom.

Seth 2016-06-02 08:44:07 [item 1722#52536]

i realize that the effect of my robotic response is negative and distracts from a response which might lead to more interesting possibilities. i do not necessarly need to make the robotic response. that is my take away from this train of thought … that is my evaluation of it after low 3872 days.

You can also think about taking a friend for dinner – liver, fava beans w/ a fine Chianti & not act on it. Once one is aware then the next step is beyond not acting on it but transforming oneself so that you are honest & can express what is real underneath what is hidden by Ego mechanisms. Too much to talk about here but Pursuing Consciousness does nicely.

Zen & the Art of the Right-Wrong Game

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