Punishment

I Would like to put this notion of punishment etc. out of action in accordance with the Golden Rule. There are other ways of dealing with transgressions if such notion is abandoned - both in large & small circumstances. It should not be the first thing thought of automatically.  At a personal level I notice it in my makeup for more often than I am willing to admit out loud. As part of the my self I end up using such for rationalization of how my life works.
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  1. punishing
  2. punishment
  3. punish

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Mark de LA says

punish (v.) Look up punish at Dictionary.comc.1300, from Old French puniss-, extended present participle stem of punir "to punish," from Latin punire "punish, correct, chastise; take vengeance for; inflict a penalty on, cause pain for some offense," earlier poenire, from poena "penalty, punishment" (see penal). Colloquial meaning "to inflict heavy damage or loss" is first recorded 1801, originally in boxing. Related: Punished; punishing.(***)


Mark de LA says
Brick & mortar, Internet & Secular religions seem to emphasize such a notion when they are not running endless LOVE epigrams.  Secular religions are those promoted by the memes of government, atheism & science.



Mark de LA says
I do suspect that the Buddhist sects lean toward the notion that Life is Suffering so we are already punished - transcend it all by following the noble 8-fold path. Thus following the 8-fold path one finally escapes the punishment.


Mark de LA says
Just posted on FB.

Mark de LA says
Somewhere in the movie Gandhi he was approached by a Hindu who was crying & gnashing his teeth while confessing that he had murdered a Muslim baby & smashed it.  Gandhi replies "I know a way out of Hell ....."  that the solution was to find an orphaned Muslim baby & raise it as his own - only raise it as a Muslim!   ...



Mark de LA says
seth 2014-04-02 09:06:33 17243
if you are responsible for somebody, say for example your child, then i think you cannot be responsible without imposing consequences.  now whether that is judged to be punishment or not is kind of choosey thingey ... not for this peculiar thought.  now suppose that imposing consequences on others is universally removed from our human activity ... er, without consideration of specific situations.  wiggy wobby woo ... me, don't think that works.   Do you?
Consequences is NOT punishment! Don't munge the two together. Removing the notion & meme of punishment & likewise retribution & a few other synonyms clears an opening to consider how to solve the problems in a different way.



Seth says
Einai 2014-04-02 09:12:58 17243
seth 2014-04-02 09:06:33 17243
if you are responsible for somebody, say for example your child, then i think you cannot be responsible without imposing consequences.  now whether that is judged to be punishment or not is kind of choosey thingey ... not for this peculiar thought.  now suppose that imposing consequences on others is universally removed from our human activity ... er, without consideration of specific situations.  wiggy wobby woo ... me, don't think that works.   Do you?
Consequences is NOT punishment! Don't munge the two together. Removing the notion & meme of punishment & likewise retribution & a few other synonyms clears an opening to consider how to solve the problems in a different way.



Well what is punishment? ... is it not imposing consequences which make the other feel bad? ... and/or force them to act otherwise? 

Mark de LA says
seth 2014-04-02 09:27:17 17243
Einai 2014-04-02 09:12:58 17243
seth 2014-04-02 09:06:33 17243
if you are responsible for somebody, say for example your child, then i think you cannot be responsible without imposing consequences.  now whether that is judged to be punishment or not is kind of choosey thingey ... not for this peculiar thought.  now suppose that imposing consequences on others is universally removed from our human activity ... er, without consideration of specific situations.  wiggy wobby woo ... me, don't think that works.   Do you?
Consequences is NOT punishment! Don't munge the two together. Removing the notion & meme of punishment & likewise retribution & a few other synonyms clears an opening to consider how to solve the problems in a different way.



Well what is punishment? ... is it not imposing consequences which make the other feel bad? ... and/or force them to act otherwise? 
Mere words - don't ignore the diagram from the visual thesaurus above -
  • Mostly punishment is akin to the destructive intent, feeling reaction of anger - it comes from anger.  I posted these from BofNK 23:38 before on anger:
  • Anger is about something that has passed ...
  • Anger is based on feeling of hurt
  • Anger reveals a core sense of incapacity
  • Regenerating a sense olf capacity through a destructive intent or feeling reaction.


Seth says
Einai 2014-04-02 09:51:45 17243
seth 2014-04-02 09:27:17 17243
Einai 2014-04-02 09:12:58 17243
seth 2014-04-02 09:06:33 17243
if you are responsible for somebody, say for example your child, then i think you cannot be responsible without imposing consequences.  now whether that is judged to be punishment or not is kind of choosey thingey ... not for this peculiar thought.  now suppose that imposing consequences on others is universally removed from our human activity ... er, without consideration of specific situations.  wiggy wobby woo ... me, don't think that works.   Do you?
Consequences is NOT punishment! Don't munge the two together. Removing the notion & meme of punishment & likewise retribution & a few other synonyms clears an opening to consider how to solve the problems in a different way.



Well what is punishment? ... is it not imposing consequences which make the other feel bad? ... and/or force them to act otherwise? 
Mere words - don't ignore the diagram from the visual thesaurus above -
  • Mostly punishment is akin to the destructive intent, feeling reaction of anger - it comes from anger.  I posted these from BofNK 23:38 before on anger:
  • Anger is about something that has passed ...
  • Anger is based on feeling of hurt
  • Anger reveals a core sense of incapacity
  • Regenerating a sense olf capacity through a destructive intent or feeling reaction.


  1. sounds to me the kind of  punishment you are focusing on is more akin to what i would call revenge or retribution or perhaps manipulation. in which case we are pretty much in tune with this.  that part could be removed from our behaviors with probably no negative aspects ... but, of course, that is just my opinion ... the real judgement is above my pay grade ... and thankfully is not for me to judge.  
  2. yep
  3. yep
  4. maybe
  5. ok

but were you to also be talking about a broader meaning of punishment which does include the concept that one person or group is changed with the responsibility for another you do need to factor into it how the responsibility is implemented. 


Mark de LA says
Please do NOT munge your confusion about Punishment - the concept here is pretty simple & I already expressed it; no need to mush it up.  If the truth be known I suspect that (outside of arguing for arguing sake) you can grasp the root idea of Punishment.  No further definition needed here.  No need to agree or disagree with PR on anger. Work for solutions in the clearing or go perpendicular to ART.


Mark de LA says
Nope! do not need to consider groups.  This, like the Golden Rule, is an internal thingy. Consider that just like the play thingy of d'A you create a clearing for something innovative or different showing up besides an eye-for-an-eye or revenge or whatever. Gandhi was able to do so in the middle of a religious war & revolution. 


Mark de LA says
seth 2014-04-02 12:06:51 17243
Einai 2014-04-02 11:49:19 17243
Nope! do not need to consider groups.  This, like the Golden Rule, is an internal thingy. Consider that just like the play thingy of d'A you create a clearing for something innovative or different showing up besides an eye-for-an-eye or revenge or whatever. Gandhi was able to do so in the middle of a religious war & revolution. 

well in the case of revenge, retribution, and manipulation and stuff like it ... do you not admit that groups do it too?  That this behavior is unnecessary and contr-product in that context is totally agreed ... and ...er ... must be removed post haste!  Where do we click on that?
I will expound a bit later on the distinction "giving being to" & making a clearing for something unpredictable & new & unrecognizable to norlmacy to show up. I am making a sandwich for T. Some people only understanding forcing someone or "the people" to do what they deem right.  The challenge is unacceptable to a free people.


Mark de LA says
In a sense Gandhi gave being to a sense of reconciliation & peace by way of his ethos as a leader, wise man & consistency in his stand - his words meant something & he stood behind his words. He even fasted to back them up. Acknowledge how people are being in relationship to the subject - in this case punishment. This could happen by enumerating the various points of view & the contexts with which the subject is being held. This is not a voting situation but clearing the deck for something else to occur.  Obviously we're talking with civilized people & not a mob. Acknowledge the consequences of punishing in as many situations as possible.  Such a one might in the case of an eye-4-an-eye that the whole universe now has two people who are half blind. The net result is a loss. Look through them all until an Ethos emerges which transforms punishment into something more wise, more beautiful .... 
I had often thought that in criminal cases segregating criminals of the same type together so that a murderer was put with murderers could be a partial solution.  Furthermore a walled city of such without bars & dependent upon eachother for sustinance might yield something different.  There are flaws in that solution, but it has a certain poetic component to it. Anyway I am more looking for a transformation of the individual than a group or societal solution. Pragmatics are purely political & we can see how that turns out.
Mo' Later.


Mark de LA says
Actually d'A is a pretty good example of giving being to play. Whether the bs that goes with it or the story he creates beliefs with is worth anything - who knows? I still say that Art is perpendicular & is much faster than trying to convince anybody of anything. That's the Pathos component of persuasion & the Art of Rhetoric.
One rule always works better than some others & that is to be positive about what you want to change. One who wants to get rid of the meme of punishment might think find ways to cure & sidetrack or find deeds that are more fun than attracting punishment & unpleasant consequences.
Anyway this item was only a April 1 morning thought. Mostly for my own benefit.
Nighty Night Y'all + self + ?


Mark de LA says
Einai 2014-04-03 07:23:19 17243
Einai 2014-04-03 07:16:21 17243
seth 2014-04-03 06:50:11 17243
To what is Art perpendicular ?
The morning meditation yielded the following:
Logos, Pathos, Ethos ~ Q,J,X  - Art would be Pathos - the Feeling Domain.

It is interesting that in the Wikipedia Ethos recognizes:
Wikipedia: ... Ethos (/ˈθ�'s/ or /ˈθs/) is a Greek word meaning "character" that is used to describe the guiding beliefs or ideals that characterize a community, nation, or ideology. The Greeks also used this word to refer to the power of music to influence its hearer's emotions, behaviours, and even morals.[
...


Mark de LA says
Giving being to something may need one of Aristotle's three artistic proofs as a tool of persuasion to go in one direction or another.  Art can persuade or move people in some directions without words in some ways. I pointed to this already somewhere.


Mark de LA says
trichotomy, triads, threefoldnesses etc. all have context - even the thought, feeling & will is within the context of human activity. Some are included under human activity in lesser domains. Some in the domain of soul may go far beyond. 


See Also

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