My truth, your truth

source: mark
... instead of words, self-identified as "my truth"
Incidentally it just dawned on me a reasonable way to look at our differing opinions of truth .... inspired by your phrasing.  If two people meet on the street, and both of them have different opinions about something.... then,which is the truth?  Well neither has the authority to dictate what the truth is in that matter.  All i am saying is that we are almost always in that predicament. 

So when i assert this or that is "my truth" all i am doing is informing you of what i have digested and what fits inside my mind, and that i am being honest about the matter. 

Tags

  1. relative truth
  2. honesty
  3. authority
  4. my truth
  5. your truth
  6. bozometry

Comments


Mark de LA says
Gandhi on truth: ... (may relate, maybe not)

Gandhi described it as follows:

I have also called it love-force or soul-force. In the application of satyagraha, I discovered in the earliest stages that pursuit of truth did not admit of violence being inflicted on one’s opponent but that he must be weaned from error by patience and compassion. For what appears to be truth to the one may appear to be error to the other. And patience means self-suffering. So the doctrine came to mean vindication of truth, not by infliction of suffering on the opponent, but on oneself.[8]

...

Seth says
... and, er ... if i were still honest, i would let you know when i was starting to doubt my own experience in some now from which i would speak.   Right now, i am quite sure of my experiences ... especially those of which i speak.

Seth says
Einai 2014-04-24 20:52:00 17322
for some value of honest.  If truth is in doubt how can honest be any more certain?


Well, me, i do not doubt my truth anymore than i doubt my experience ... especially in any given now.  The same with my honesty.  But, yeah sure, were i to doubt my experience in any given now, then my truth and my honesty would mean almost nothing ... er, even to me ... don't forget it is my doubt that is in question.  That would not be a situation that i would like to be in. 

Mark de LA says
seth 2014-04-25 05:10:44 17322
... and, er ... if i were still honest, i would let you know when i was starting to doubt my own experience in some now from which i would speak.   Right now, i am quite sure of my experiences ... especially those of which i speak.
Let me be a little more clear for you - if you can't convey a truth that is outside yourself how can you convey any truth about your own honesty either?


Seth says
Einai 2014-04-25 06:44:11 17322
seth 2014-04-25 05:10:44 17322
... and, er ... if i were still honest, i would let you know when i was starting to doubt my own experience in some now from which i would speak.   Right now, i am quite sure of my experiences ... especially those of which i speak.
Let me be a little more clear for you - if you can't convey a truth that is outside yourself how can you convey any truth about your own honesty either?


Well the so called "truth" of which i speak  is an adjective that describes the relationship between a person's experience and their expression of that experience. 
source: Mariam Webster

3a :  the property (as of a statement) of being in accord with fact or reality
As you can see, any so called "truth" that is outside of the experience (reality) of a person simply can not apply to this usage. 

Obviously people use many senses of this word to point to various other things ... er, real and/or imagined.  For me, this particular sense of the word, is the only one that is tangible enough for me to honestly speak about.  Also, please note, that this is not just me.  Almost all the philosophers and mathematicians who developed logic in the 18th and 19th centuries used the same kind of definition of the word.  References can be provided if you doubt it. 

Mark de LA says
seth 2014-04-25 07:10:01 17322
Einai 2014-04-25 06:44:11 17322
seth 2014-04-25 05:10:44 17322
... and, er ... if i were still honest, i would let you know when i was starting to doubt my own experience in some now from which i would speak.   Right now, i am quite sure of my experiences ... especially those of which i speak.
Let me be a little more clear for you - if you can't convey a truth that is outside yourself how can you convey any truth about your own honesty either?


Well the so called "truth" of which i speak  is an adjective that describes the relationship between a person's experience and their expression of that experience. 
source: Mariam Webster

3a :  the property (as of a statement) of being in accord with fact or reality
As you can see, any so called "truth" that is outside of the experience (reality) of a person simply can not apply to this usage. 

Obviously people use many senses of this word to point to various other things ... er, real and/or imagined.  For me, this particular sense of the word, is the only one that is tangible enough for me to honestly speak about.  Also, please note, that this is not just me.  Almost all the philosophers and mathematicians who developed logic in the 18th and 19th centuries used the same kind of definition of the word.  References can be provided if you doubt it. 
No need.
So when you assert that you are being honest it is all inside you & really has nothing to do with me; ethos seemingly lacking.
Secondly, as far as truth as an adjective goes, you might try to find me a reference. The dictionary & etymology & visual thesaurus all list it as a noun.



Mark de LA says
ethos maybe OK - illative force not so much on honesty.mind fog

Seth says
also i can "convey" both the feeling that something said is true, and the feeling that i am being honest when i say something.   For example, "i have already eaten my breakfast prunes" is a true sentence.  I write that sentence quite honestly.   there is no logical conflict in this usage.

Mark de LA says
I think we (yep I used that word) need a new word for Seth's context on the word truth .  I liked the word truthiness 2468 but such needs embellishment since that is a noun as well. We need to marry truthiness to get rid of fixed boundaries on truth like wobble, perhaps.  Truthiness wobble is close to Startrek's tribbles - kinda warm friendly fuzzies - via riming slang.  To turn that into an adjective or an adverb requires some riming slang art , maybe by adding the suffix -ish
tribblish - is my choice - neat, eh?
but maybe just ish is good enough

I'll be at your house about 3-ish works
My ish or your ish who knows?

Seth says
source: mark
So when you assert that you are being honest it is all inside you & really has nothing to do with me; ethos seemingly lacking.
I am not sure what "to do with you" and "ethos" means to you in this context.  Obviously what i say to you is just  information transmitted to you.  What you do with it is truly all about you.  I would expect that if i also tell you that i am being honest in what i say, that you will factor that extra knowledge into how you interpret and judge what the information means to you. 

Now let me be real direct here.  Some of the things you say to me i am not so very sure that are even true to you ... why? ... well just because i don't ever remember that you told me that you are being honest when you say them.  Especially those things you say to me which you seem to be joking and laughfing about, but you must also know that they will not be funny to me.

Mark de LA says
Einai 2014-04-25 07:23:33 17322
ethos maybe OK - illative force not so much on honesty.mind fog
Yep I already addressed the trust issue above .

Seth says
Einai 2014-04-25 08:19:26 17322
seth 2014-04-25 08:11:06 17322
Einai 2014-04-25 07:56:20 17322
I am now not lying?
about what? <<- irrelevant question
.. your honesty assertions, already handled, are similar to the age old philosophical or logical statement "I am now lying" - a paradox, eh?

i really do not know, and i refuse to try to guess,  what proposition you are talking about.  I see not paradox here ... and yes i am quite failure with the liars paradox. 

If you really are asking me a question here, say something real, and i will tell you how i feel about it and whether i judge you to be honest about it or not. 

but, to be honest with you, most of the time i don't bother to judge your honesty in saying things to me ... why? ... well just because i really do not know ... that part of you seems to hide  behind a cloak of secrecy ... so i just relate to it as pure otherness ... and respect it as such.

Seth says
Einai 2014-04-25 07:54:14 17322
seth 2014-04-25 07:45:15 17322
source: mark
So when you assert that you are being honest it is all inside you & really has nothing to do with me; ethos seemingly lacking.
I am not sure what "to do with you" and "ethos" means to you in this context.  Obviously what i say to you is just  information transmitted to you.  What you do with it is truly all about you.  I would expect that if i also tell you that i am being honest in what i say, that you will factor that extra knowledge into how you interpret and judge what the information means to you. 

Now let me be real direct here.  Some of the things you say to me i am not so very sure that are even true to you ... why? ... well just because i don't ever remember that you told me that you are being honest when you say them.  Especially those things you say to me which you seem to be joking and laughfing about, but you must also know that they will not be funny to me.
... a person who asserts he is being honest makes me laugh because it adds nothing in the way of "information" - particularly if he is a politician - mainly because I have to ask myself why does he need to say that? You are not at the pay grade where you can say "verily, verily I say unto you ..." yet!


It seems to me you are forgetting about trust.  I agree, if you don't already trust a person, then they do not add anything to their communication by just saying they are being honest. 

The same goes for me, Mark ... if you do not already trust me, then me saying i am being honest must sound like an idle boast and a severe lack of modesty ... but i am not so very sure that is all that very funny to me.

Seth says
Einai 2014-04-25 07:56:20 17322
I am now not lying?
about what?

Mark de LA says
seth 2014-04-25 08:11:06 17322
Einai 2014-04-25 07:56:20 17322
I am now not lying?
about what? <<- irrelevant question
.. your honesty assertions, already handled, are similar to the age old philosophical or logical statement "I am now lying" - a paradox, eh?


Seth says
Einai 2014-04-25 08:21:51 17322
Einai 2014-04-25 07:23:33 17322
ethos maybe OK - illative force not so much on honesty.mind fog
Yep I already addressed the trust issue above .
sorry,  have no idea what you are saying here ... an don't have the time to guess. 

Mark de LA says
seth 2014-04-25 08:32:10 17322
Einai 2014-04-25 08:21:51 17322
Einai 2014-04-25 07:23:33 17322
ethos maybe OK - illative force not so much on honesty.mind fog
Yep I already addressed the trust issue above .
sorry,  have no idea what you are saying here ... an don't have the time to guess. 
Yep - your loss not mine.  I said it & am done explaining it.
Einai: ... As the proverbial tree falls in the forest, I ask do words have any meaning if they are never read nor heard nor comprehended by a human?
...


Seth says
source: Einai: ...
As the proverbial tree falls in the forest, I ask do words have any meaning if they are never read nor heard nor comprehended by a human?
... it's unclear, because a human would need to compose and also understand the words for them to even exist.  But should some other process bring marks together that would match letters and words, and no human was ever present to hear them, then, NO, they would have no meaning whatsoever.  That is er, the very nature of signs. 


Mark de LA says
seth 2014-04-25 13:01:18 17322
Einai 2014-04-25 09:40:56 17322
seth 2014-04-25 09:36:33 17322
source: Einai: ...
As the proverbial tree falls in the forest, I ask do words have any meaning if they are never read nor heard nor comprehended by a human?
... it's unclear, because a human would need to compose and also understand the words for them to even exist.  But should some other process bring marks together that would match letters and words, and no human was ever present to hear them, then, NO, they would have no meaning whatsoever.  That is er, the very nature of signs. 

Yep - this just validates [my: item 17318]
Comprehension is the key. Some people comprehend & recoil because they don't like it.

Well i still am very confused what you are really saying here.  The words of natural language need to be interpreted by humans to mean anything.  That is absolutely true ... me thinks to most people know that and never doubt it at all ... no?  That some people comprehend some words in some particular way and recoil because they do not like the meaning that that interpret ... is just the way all communication is between humans.  I think Art requires even more interpretation than just pros ... so Art is of no relief there. 

Like you said in response to my get well card ... what is making you sick is all the lies and the dishonesty.   Me too .
Art doesn't pretend to be precise. Except in an art appreciation class one would be silly to argue about the meaning of a piece of art or music or poetry or sculpture or drama - then again some do & some are silly. Rewording parts my post does not show you are into comprehend-ing
Istic or -ism - who knows? - I am tired of explaining. REM was pretty good at it - losing my religion.


Seth says
Einai 2014-04-25 09:40:56 17322
seth 2014-04-25 09:36:33 17322
source: Einai: ...
As the proverbial tree falls in the forest, I ask do words have any meaning if they are never read nor heard nor comprehended by a human?
... it's unclear, because a human would need to compose and also understand the words for them to even exist.  But should some other process bring marks together that would match letters and words, and no human was ever present to hear them, then, NO, they would have no meaning whatsoever.  That is er, the very nature of signs. 

Yep - this just validates [my: item 17318]
Comprehension is the key. Some people comprehend & recoil because they don't like it.

Well i still am very confused what you are really saying here.  The words of natural language need to be interpreted by humans to mean anything.  That is absolutely true ... me thinks to most people know that and never doubt it at all ... no?  That some people comprehend some words in some particular way and recoil because they do not like the meaning that that interpret ... is just the way all communication is between humans.  I think Art requires even more interpretation than just pros ... so Art is of no relief there. 

Like you said in response to my get well card ... what is making you sick is all the lies and the dishonesty.   Me too .

Seth says
Einai 2014-04-25 14:37:54 17322
This is the YouTube More Than Words !

Seth says

Mark: Comprehension is the key. Some people comprehend & recoil because they don't like it.

Seth: That some people comprehend some words in some particular way and recoil because they do not like the meaning that that interpret ... is just the way all communication is between humans.

Mark: Rewording parts my post does not show you are into comprehend-ing.

Seth:  Well, in this case, i think it did.  I was attempting to go just a might bit deeper than assenting to your particular words would allow ... so i said the same thing, better quantified, and gave you my own reaction to its propositional content upon which we both agreed. 

You see, the way you said that in context, it  seems to me that in your mind this is a irritating flaw in human's usage of words.  I wanted to communicate back to you that i do not feel that is an irritating flaw at all.   Kind of like me saying, "gravity sucks because it makes me feel heavey", and you saying back, "well loose some weight dude, that's just the way gravity works for everybody". 
In fact, that irritated attitude, "", about how people might interpert words differently, is, as far as i can tell, what 17318 is expressing ... er, loud and clear, i must admit.  I wanted to say to you that i do not share that irritated attitude at all.  In fact i think it is just as wiggy as if i would feel gravity sucked because it made me feel heavey. 
 
So, obviously i could not have comprehended your remark at that depth by merely assenting or ignoring it.  And, if you bother to actually parse and comprehend what i have said here, i can well imagine that both of us comprehend your remark and mine in reply in a better depth and context. 

Mark de LA says
seth 2014-04-26 08:22:03 17322

Mark: Comprehension is the key. Some people comprehend & recoil because they don't like it.

Seth: That some people comprehend some words in some particular way and recoil because they do not like the meaning that that interpret ... is just the way all communication is between humans.

Mark: Rewording parts my post does not show you are into comprehend-ing.

Seth:  Well, in this case, i think it did.  I was attempting to go just a might bit deeper than assenting to your particular words would allow ... so i said the same thing, better quantified, and gave you my own reaction to its propositional content upon which we both agreed. 

You see, the way you said that in context, it  seems to me that in your mind this is a irritating flaw in human's usage of words.  I wanted to communicate back to you that i do not feel that is an irritating flaw at all.   Kind of like me saying, "gravity sucks because it makes me feel heavey", and you saying back, "well loose some weight dude, that's just the way gravity works for everybody". 
In fact, that irritated attitude, "", about how people might interpert words differently, is, as far as i can tell, what 17318 is expressing ... er, loud and clear, i must admit.  I wanted to say to you that i do not share that irritated attitude at all.  In fact i think it is just as wiggy as if i would feel gravity sucked because it made me feel heavey. 
 
So, obviously i could not have comprehended your remark at that depth by merely assenting or ignoring it.  And, if you bother to actually parse and comprehend what i have said here, i can well imagine that both of us comprehend your remark and mine in reply in a better depth and context. 
Mostly RWG & argumentative shit here.  Such does not persuade - presumably you want me to believe your point of view is correct (maybe for you only). Anyway I bolded the words you made which don't work. I want communication to get better & an excess of argumentative words doesn't work. Look at the news or your own posts & your imagination about mine. I choose to add elements of Art which trigger the emotional side of life or emotional truth.  You can't brow beat anyone into siding with your point of view - not here - not anywhere!


Seth says


, i tend to agree. i'm thinking that frequently it is best for me not to try to "understand" another's behavior at all, but rather to just get the propositional content of what they say, and what the significance of them saying it is to me.

yep, otherwise, it is just like trying to smell the color 9 ... err, well said red sock puppet.

See Also

  1. Thought Buddah Lied with 346 viewings related by tag "relative truth".
  2. Thought nathan's distinction between authentic and honest with 160 viewings related by tag "honesty".
  3. Thought Fox Guarding the Hen House with 54 viewings related by tag "honesty".
  4. Thought Writing Voice with 51 viewings related by tag "honesty".
  5. Thought Ass Hole with 32 viewings related by tag "honesty".
  6. Thought A Test with 16 viewings related by tag "authority".
  7. Thought Leading to cheat ! with 16 viewings related by tag "honesty".
  8. Thought Humanity with 3 viewings related by tag "bozometry".
  9. Thought Cool Response with 2 viewings related by tag "relative truth".
  10. Thought Bozometry with 1 viewings related by tag "bozometry".
  11. Thought Lies with 1 viewings related by tag "bozometry".
  12. Thought Ego vs Egoo with 1 viewings related by tag "honesty".
  13. Thought bozometry with 1 viewings related by tag "bozometry".
  14. Thought Truth with 1 viewings related by tag "relative truth".
  15. Thought Honesty with 0 viewings related by tag "honesty".
  16. Thought the dynamic relationship between freedom, authority, habit, and the eog/otherness boundary with 0 viewings related by tag "authority".
  17. Thought Authority & Power & Momentum with 0 viewings related by tag "authority".
  18. Thought about: in the groups owned by mark with 0 viewings related by tag "authority".
  19. Thought The Authority of the Priest with 0 viewings related by tag "authority".
  20. Thought [title (18769)] with 0 viewings related by tag "authority".
  21. Thought Conservatives fight Liberals with 0 viewings related by tag "bozometry".
  22. Thought An exercise to make truth ring louder with 0 viewings related by tag "honesty".
  23. Thought Seth fights Deception with 0 viewings related by tag "honesty".
  24. Thought Bubbling up like a fart in a bubble bath with 0 viewings related by tag "bozometry".
  25. Thought The Antidote to Bread and Circuses with 0 viewings related by tag "honesty".
  26. Thought More Silent Thought with 0 viewings related by tag "honesty".
  27. Thought Truth is feelings ... qualias ... that people get about the the thoughts that they think. with 0 viewings related by tag "relative truth".
  28. Thought logic is great, survival is better with 0 viewings related by tag "bozometry".
  29. Thought How my thinking has changed with 0 viewings related by tag "honesty".
  30. Thought For those who like to Channel with 0 viewings related by tag "authority".
  31. Thought blogging is making an external mind with 0 viewings related by tag "bozometry".
  32. Thought The importance of consistent association of World to Mind with 0 viewings related by tag "honesty".
  33. Thought being as a sustaining process with 0 viewings related by tag "bozometry".
  34. Thought #fluidtruth = #lies with 0 viewings related by tag "relative truth".
  35. Thought Why i write true sentences ... with 0 viewings related by tag "honesty".
  36. Thought about: what is creative nonfiction? ... with 0 viewings related by tag "honesty".