Does a context exist outside of a person who distinguishes it as a context?


Now, me thinks,  this is very much the same kind of question as, if a tree falls in the forest and nobody is there to see it, does it fall? 

I think the best answer to that is an other question ... "then who cares whether it falls or not?"

In other words, a universe without our human apprehension is not really a thingey of our concern


** other thoughts and thanks for the picture.
.............................................................................................................

I'm modeling the situation like this picture.  The arrows are signs ... real things in the world of being and consequence which are represented in a mind by some symbol that refers to them. 

The tree falling itself belongs to the world of being and consequence.  It happens whether a mind perceives it or not.  Yet it is nothing but uninterpreted, perhaps even unknown, static unless a mind does perceive it. 

But if you talk of the perception of this tree falling, well then, since percepts are just in the metaworld of mind, sans a mind to make or be aware of them, it would not exist at all.

Tags

  1. context
  2. mental topography
  3. tree fall forest
  4. meta-world

Comments


Seth says
Einai 2014-05-09 07:54:06 17369
Does a concept or idea exist outside a person's mind?

For me the pesky part of answering that question is the "a".  Is it reasonable for us to assume that a person's mind can be distinguished from the mind that we collectively create.  In other words, is not the boundary between our individual mind and it's environment quite arbitrary?  Now, oh sure, we all certainly do have a preference, a special interest, a sovereign  responsibility for our selves.  But is that special interest not just an arbritrary boundry from any point of view that is not that persons?   I think it is quite arbitrary.  So factoring the pesky "a" out of our thinking, your question becomes,  "Does a concept or idea exist outside of mind ... er, which is made up of concepts and ideas" ... to which the answer pops right out as "NO". 

But then i would follow my answer up with another question,  "How could our concepts or ideas care outside of themselves?"

Seth says
i changed the wording a bit in the body of this item.  If you hear (or see) a tree falling, then that is called a "perception", not a concept.  The concept might come in were you to generalize on many perceptions.  But in any case all of that is in the mind.

In a way i fail to see why this has been such a pesky question for philosophy over the years.  To me it is fairly obvious, and should not be controversial once you align the symbols in your mind consistently with the world of being and consequence as you think about the answer.

Seth says
source: mark
Yeah, I pondered the a after I posted it. Three rewordings could be:
  1. Does a concept or idea exist outside a mind?
  2. Does a concept or idea exist outside any person's mind?
  3. Does a concept or idea exist outside mind?

to which I would reply YES, with caveats in some of them.

Ny context: (You know that) I hold thoughts as beings which, just like friends will visit or not depending upon the right circumstances (metaphor: home to visit in, welcome etc.) - GW & RS & ME.

Confusion exists in the tree-forest thingy as sound has been defined by physicists as vibrating air or vibrating medium of some kind. In the Soul realm it is something else.

Those who attribute the sense of hearing as a soul sense recognize sound as what you listen & hear - a sense impression that defies description to one who can't hear or has never done so. It is something that needs a direct experience, but most who have had it would say "oh! you mean that!"


Well i'm modeling the situation like this picture.  The arrows are signs ... real things in the world of being and consequence which are represented in a mind by some symbol that refers to them. 

The tree falling itself belongs to the world of being and consequence.  It happens whether a mind perceives it or not.  Yet it is nothing but uninterpreted, perhaps even unknown, static unless a mind does perceive it. 

But if you call this tree falling a concept, well then, since concepts are just in the metalowrld of mind, sans a mind to form or be aware of it, it would not exist at all.

Do you agree?



Mark de LA says
Funny thingy, I got more out of your acid trip story than most of this.


Seth says
Einai 2014-05-11 09:02:31 17369
seth 2014-05-11 07:42:08 17369
i changed the wording a bit in the body of this item.  If you hear (or see) a tree falling, then that is called a "perception", not a concept.  The concept might come in were you to generalize on many perceptions.  But in any case all of that is in the mind.

In a way i fail to see why this has been such a pesky question for philosophy over the years.  To me it is fairly obvious, and should not be controversial once you align the symbols in your mind consistently with the world of being and consequence as you think about the answer.
change the word "you" to the word "I" & you may be closer to truthiness. I already capped off the thingy as 2 different contexts.  Sound as a physics distinction & Sound as a soul distinction, but you ignored that as usual & prefered to meta around again.


I am not sure what sentence you refer to.   For the most part in this item and train it is immaterial which pronoun is used ... i mean after all they are all just words for contexts and beings, perhaps arbitrarily boundary by someones skin on the outside and who knows on the inside.  I suppose if you think it is important enough to you, then you will tell me which sentence you can imporve and what the improvement is.

I was thinking of your mention of sound ... and i realized that all voiced thought must stem from that sound sense channel.  Just like the though of this image stemmed from the sense of sight. 

Seth says
source: seth
Does a context exist outside of a person who distinguishes it as a context?
Note this is the question that wants to be answered in this item. 

When i recognize something it gets represented in my mind.  Or, perhaps, more directly the process of a thing being distinguished is the process of it being represented in a mind.  Once there it takes on a special quality that does not exist for all those things that have not yet been recognized.  Perhaps there is some wisdom in the Native American's phobia of people taking photographs of them, for once an image of them is represented in the media, a special handle to their being attaches.  The same goes for naming ... when a concept that cannot be represented by a image gets named, we have a special hold of it.   This representing ... this becomming aware in our minds to grasp hold ... does seem to be an almost unspoken feature of the way the mind works ... and its relationship to the world of being itself.

So back to the question, does that grasping only happen individually within an each person?



Seth says
Einai 2014-05-11 08:09:27 17369
One of the most interesting NLP cures for phobias is to go double meta to the residue of the phobia. E.g. phobia of water or snakes.  Imagine you are in a theatre with the residue of the experience playing out on a movie screen.  Then go one level farther from it being just a movie, to being in the audience, to being in the balcony watching yourself in the audience of a movie playing on the screen about what bothers you.
Kewl, huh? At that level of removal you can treat things objectively without the feeling & anchor things differently.
Not mockery - please adjust if you think so.

Yes, yes, good stuff .

The theater of the mind to actual being is just like an audience watching a screen.  That is why i say that what happens in our media and culture is the hair up of an individual person to a cultural being.  It is a hard thing to say and prove ... i'm still working on it.

Also using projecting a thing into mind and dealing with it indirectly, "objectively",  by symbols is something that actually does work ... perhaps that is magic ... and is fraught with the extreme danger of breaking this.  One must be clear on what is what and who is who.  Not an easy thing.  And actually accepting that being does not get separated from not being just by an arbitrary boundary of your skin.  Lots of shit in this paragraph ... don't just eat it or wipe it back in my face like you usually do. 
source: mark
My Zen master, if he were to read this, would probably say the opposite direction leads to experience & direct experience. Everything has it place, though.
I would like to understand that "opposite direction" in terms of this model


Mark de LA says
seth 2014-05-11 09:20:03 17369
Einai 2014-05-11 08:58:41 17369
seth 2014-05-11 08:44:33 17369
source: mark
My Zen master, if he were to read this, would probably say the opposite direction leads to experience & direct experience. Everything has it place, though.
I would like to understand that "opposite direction" in terms of this model

Quite simple if you get out of your model. Instead of going in the direction of greater & greater abstraction remove abstraction & go more & more towards being present & experiencing what is going on in the world. However to abstract what I have just said will get you back into your walled garden of ?


Well yes absolutely ... that is in fact what one tries to do ... "being present and experiencing what is going on the the world" is living.  I think we both know that what we are saying to each other here is symbolic of that living ... er, it is not the living itself ... it is, as it were, transactions of the metaworld.  Yet it is awareness of that.  It is in a way doing what you described doing when you said, ...
One of the most interesting NLP cures for phobias is to go double meta to the residue of the phobia. E.g. phobia of water or snakes.  Imagine you are in a theatre with the residue of the experience playing out on a movie screen.  Then go one level farther from it being just a movie, to being in the audience, to being in the balcony watching yourself in the audience of a movie playing on the screen about what bothers you.
Kewl, huh? At that level of removal you can treat things objectively without the feeling & anchor things differently.
... and that kind of symbolic awareness is what makes things appear. 

now im going to go back into the world like i did yesterday ... perhaps up to capitol hill ... perhaps to experience the street scene there ... or maybe the gay scene ... whichever happens.  How will you be being present & experiencing what is going on in the world today?
I'll probably be planting some tomato plants & some cooking & some shitting & .... no symbolic turds, though - just real ones.


Mark de LA says
Source left out of the picture here.

Seth says
Einai 2014-05-11 14:30:06 17369
Einai 2014-05-11 14:20:33 17369
[snip unnecessary to repeat]
Yah Well maybe get this context http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Equivocation
Maybe go to G+ and search communities for the word Semantic & see if anyone there gets excited about what your are offering - there appears to be a couple of dozen of them.


Or maybe study Semiosis which is the process of creating meaning with signs, you will find it in the body of work of Charles Sanders Peirce  who invented semiotics.  I discovered the field from John Sowa's paper here during my involvement with an ontology group and studying the semantica of RDF with the W3C.   there is not much here that is different from that literature.

... however i have never seen this diagram drawn where the actual world is shown as just static. Usually they draw some representation of a thing there, yet that representation does not belong there, it belongs above in the mind.  I don't like my diagrams to lie about what they are talking about ... even if everybody is suppose to know what the marks mean. 

the interesting part of this is drawing the boundaries of some particular mind ... perhaps discovering that we need not draw these mind networks as ending at someones skin but rather that we can consider them extending  consequentially within our culture.  Remember what you said about a thought being like a visiting friend?  Well that goes right along with this metaphor.

Seth says
Einai 2014-05-11 09:05:11 17369
seth 2014-05-11 08:50:20 17369
source: mark
I don't like the word sign as a substitute for word, either. Butt Hay ... ?
Here's a sign

...



well this does appear to be just hostile distracting and degrading of what i am saying here.

Do you honestly think it belongs in this thread?
Did you miss the part about using the word sign as you seem to do so often? The manure pile is a picture of something real.  Notice there no signs in it.
I would rather encounter something real rather than something representing it.

Well "sign" is a perfectly good word and i use it exactly the way as it is used in the literature of semantics.  That "you don't like it" is your own refusal to listen.  You have a pattern of not "liking words" that i choose to use for some chiggy reason of your own ... my theory is that it allows you to feel good about not hearing my message and so you can feel righteous and call me confused. 

Incidentally your picture of a pile of manuer is also a sign ... a different kind of sign than the word "sign", but a sign nonetheless.  It does not smell and will not be of any use in fertilizing a garden.  It has no consequence except to  represent (stands for) a thing in our metaworld here ... it feels to me here in this Capitol Hill coffee shop like a shiny smooth 2 dimensional surface.  I  used a similar graphic sign about a real tree which had fallen in the forest to illustrate this item.

Mark de LA says
seth 2014-05-12 07:39:49 17369
source: seth
Does a context exist outside of a person who distinguishes it as a context?
Note this is the question that wants to be answered in this item. 

When i recognize something it gets represented in my mind.  Or, perhaps, more directly the process of a thing being distinguished is the process of it being represented in a mind.  Once there it takes on a special quality that does not exist for all those things that have not yet been recognized.  Perhaps there is some wisdom in the Native American's phobia of people taking photographs of them, for once an image of them is represented in the media, a special handle to their being attaches.  The same goes for naming ... when a concept that cannot be represented by a image gets named, we have a special hold of it.   This representing ... this becomming aware in our minds to grasp hold ... does seem to be an almost unspoken feature of the way the mind works ... and its relationship to the world of being itself.

So back to the question, does that grasping only happen individually within an each person?


     IMHO (which is neither)  distinction happens when one focuses on some sensory input - it is a moment before the whole cognition thingy happens.  Representation in the mind is the cognition thingy.  Context is a distinction about how to grasp or hold onto or cognize something. If it did not exist outside an individual how could communication ever happen? Then too, we could all be zombie monads running around in our own solipsistic universes pretending that we understand each other as a survival metaprogram but on some level just really don't.
     Language directs the focus. Language exists outside any single person's mind & is a sense (cf. GW & RS) most of us have where agreement between some humans has been reasonably made enough to navigate the physical & sometimes other worlds. It is with language that context is made & yet an individual can invent a new context.  Some die like the Flat Earth .  The former such making is of something unrecognizable to be related to - the occuring of which is only on the other side of that which is recognizable to be related to.  But this matter is a different seminar.


Seth says
just to compare two diagrams illustrating the predicament of mind, compare mine here with that one there.  Note that an already represented figure appears outside of the person's mind.  This is a small point but when trying to accurately represent the predicament me thinks an important one.



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