Train of Will in the Stream of Consciousness

I found a possible train of will (the most slippery thing of the triad: thought, feeling & will) .  It is what a chef or cook uses to produce a dish he has done a 100 times before & needs no instructions to produce. The rituals performed produce the train. Such may be occult & thelemic, medical & practiced as in surgery, focused & intuitive as in martial arts.  Very little, if any, is required of other two domains thinking & feeling.
Note that a train usually begins at a station & ends up somewhere also a station. I think that thinking starts in the head in one of the  3 chakra areas in the head - the pineal, pituitary & crown .  I suspect feeling starts in the heart or larynx area & will in the tan tien area in back of the belly button. I suspect that the petals (see RS) differ on each visit & path taken.
Such is a whole or
source: ... 2617 - #41,1 82-12-3-15-13-46 Wed

" HSU, Waiting, Protraction, Binding one's Time, Lingam of Moon, Daath of Yesod, Creative Impulse attracting the Restricted Universe.  Snatching Victory from the Jaws of Defeat; kon pp (1867,1617) These references are important; "manna" is a from heaven; a true theory of magic is not derived merely by studying what has been written of it, but rather from experience!  ... Sensation & Conception are two sides of the same coin.  It's all in the way you look at it.  Abstraction can divide unity into numerous categories, but the Reality is still a Unity - see Lib L; "None breathed the Light, etc - & two- I am divided for Love's Sake for the chance of Union - the Break in Continuity is Maya.  Surfing is Fun!"

...

Tags

  1. intention
  2. consciousness
  3. just do it
  4. deeds
  5. integrity
  6. item 17375
  7. wilt
  8. train of will
  9. will

Comments


Mark de LA says
Munging more new words into the picture such as plan, action, deed continues the fun. Try looking in the Visual thesaurus & you get a tree of stuff. It turns out the same in a dictionary (see George Carlin on words) or like remember Tony Robbins firewalk trying to get agreement on 5 words which mean either sex or education. Here is the beginning.  It turns out that you probably will not get a precise definition of anything without an infinite sized corpus of usage.
Maybe even contemplate using PR methodology what is between the thoughts about action & action.  Maybe focus on the phrase in AoEP "The Consciousness commands & the body obeys."


Mark de LA says
seth 2014-05-11 18:47:53 17375
  

The occult part of your item i have ignored ... it's way way too deep for this country boy.  Interesting item to me, though, you have my attention.
Maybe you are just listening to your inner female voice. Maybe channel your inner sum


Seth says
i'm thinking that when you use the word "will" you are talking about what i call "intention" ... or "pursuit of a goal".  it is experienced before the action happens (or er, doesn't happen).  you can express it by saying, "i will do X".  me, i like to express (what i think means the same) honestly and say "i intend to do X".

I get that following though on intention is a virtue that you call "integrity".  But we are all different ... sorry to assert that again, but we are.  Me i try not to build up that tension between thought-intention and actual action ... and do not judge my ability to do so, or not do so.  That said, i think people find that when i tell them i will do something, most of the time i actually do it.  That is the cases where i am talking to somebody else.  When i talk to myself, i almost always avoid making such promises.  That is just the way i have found is best for me to live my life.

Mark de LA says
seth 2014-05-12 09:16:37 17375
i'm thinking that when you use the word "will" you are talking about what i call "intention" ... or "pursuit of a goal".  it is experienced before the action happens (or er, doesn't happen).  you can express it by saying, "i will do X".  me, i like to express (what i think means the same) honestly and say "i intend to do X".

I get that following though on intention is a virtue that you call "integrity".  But we are all different ... sorry to assert that again, but we are.  Me i try not to build up that tension between thought-intention and actual action ... and do not judge my ability to do so, or not do so.  That said, i think people find that when i tell them i will do something, most of the time i actually do it.  That is the cases where i am talking to somebody else.  When i talk to myself, i almost always avoid making such promises.  That is just the way i have found is best for me to live my life.
Yep - will & intention are two different words.
Haggling is NOT the first rule of Art. Maybe not haggling IS & is the difference between will & intention.
Then too you must encounter a cognitive dissonance when you say "I will ...X" & it doesn't happen or you know it won't or some other self-protective haggle.
... & maybe not - your mileage variable always.


Mark de LA says
For what it's worth my thoughts on will are simple. They do align with Erhard's notion of integrity & keeping one's word. When I say "I will do X now" and the next bit of consciousness finds I am doing X. I am willing, pun intended.  I need not say it . I can also imagine or exercise some other kind of motivational grasp of the object of my will.  The tricky part is moving from NOW to some other precise or perhaps imprecise moment & including others in a process.  Such depends a lot on your integrity & ability to lead others in the same integrity, communication about such integrity, the ability to keep promises & request others to do so. It may also depend upon alignment with Cosmic powers, but that will be left to another time.


Mark de LA says
In encountering the Yin of it all I have noticed that the Yin is able & can think quite well but prefers not to do so.


Mark de LA says

Seth says
Einai 2014-05-12 09:38:28 17375
seth 2014-05-12 09:16:37 17375
i'm thinking that when you use the word "will" you are talking about what i call "intention" ... or "pursuit of a goal".  it is experienced before the action happens (or er, doesn't happen).  you can express it by saying, "i will do X".  me, i like to express (what i think means the same) honestly and say "i intend to do X".

I get that following though on intention is a virtue that you call "integrity".  But we are all different ... sorry to assert that again, but we are.  Me i try not to build up that tension between thought-intention and actual action ... and do not judge my ability to do so, or not do so.  That said, i think people find that when i tell them i will do something, most of the time i actually do it.  That is the cases where i am talking to somebody else.  When i talk to myself, i almost always avoid making such promises.  That is just the way i have found is best for me to live my life.
Yep - will & intention are two different words.
Haggling is NOT the first rule of Art. Maybe not haggling IS & is the difference between will & intention.
Then too you must encounter a cognitive dissonance when you say "I will ...X" & it doesn't happen or you know it won't or some other self-protective haggle.
... & maybe not - your mileage variable always.


Well "will" and "intention" are two different words ... the question is whether they name the same thing or not.  As far as i can tell they do.  Or at least i have not heard of any test that would allow me to distinguish. 

Certainly the awareness of an intention ... or of the formation of a plan ... is not the same thing as carrying out the plan or of doing the thing.  Or, more simply said, the plan is not the doing of the plan. 

I don't think that  anyone should haggel ... just do the thing is what i tell myself.  that happens when any further thinking about doing the thing will yield nothing more than just hesitation.  If i find myself haggling instead of doing i do tend to get what might be called "cognitive dissonance".  That particular dissonance is not a big problem for me, just because i know my mind sufficiently to know when my thoughts will not longer help and it is time to just do it. 

But i do have a different problem. And that is doing something for which a clear intention and/or plan has already been formed and the time to do it is now ... and yet my habits prompted by the moment would have me to do otherwise.  In me, that is where the true dissonance or turbulence happens. 

Are you in fact different in this regard?

Seth says
it is hard for me to distinguish your train of will from acting intentionally (goal directed) ... or like you say, following a recipe, ... or even acting from habit.  Most of my life is acting intentionally and reacting to consequences ... habitually or sensitively to what is happening around me.  I dont't know that i have recognized a special train against  the background of all the deeds of my life ... regardless of what i attribute as the cause of the deed ... ceremony, intentions, free will, compelled by circumstances, habitual, or sensitive to others intentions. 

Perhaps we differ on this grock because i have never recognized a thing called "will" that can be distinguished from just the movement of doing something.  I just can't find it. 

The occult part of your item i have ignored ... it's way way too deep for this country boy.  Interesting item to me, though, you have my attention.

Mark de LA says
It is just a wallaby right now.  So far the depp meme seems to work more often than not. It gets to the point that T won't even discuss it. I would be curious if you have found out anything like the feeling preference to thought with D.


Seth says
actually i think my morning game is somewhat in pursuit of an awareness of what could be called a "train of will".  this morning, for example, i was motivated out of bed by the urgency of other's timings.  not my favorite way to get up, but denise is in detroit and the business must still be run and jason's lunch made so he won't be late for work. 

then it occured to me that when my inner motivation and my outer motivation totally coincide, i perceive it as synchronicity.  that has a distinct feeling to it.  i reach out, and that which i need it right there. 


Mark de LA says
seth 2014-05-12 07:03:23 17375
actually i think my morning game is somewhat in pursuit of an awareness of what could be called a "train of will".  this morning, for example, i was motivated out of bed by the urgency of other's timings.  not my favorite way to get up, but denise is in detroit and the business must still be run and jason's lunch made so he won't be late for work. 

then it occured to me that when my inner motivation and my outer motivation totally coincide, i perceive it as synchronicity.  that has a distinct feeling to it.  i reach out, and that which i need it right there. 


Mark de LA says
-SNIP-

Well "will" and "intention" are two different words ... the question is whether they name the same thing or not.  As far as i can tell they do.  Or at least i have not heard of any test that would allow me to distinguish. 
Look up the etymology on them if you need help (see links) or even a dictionary . Clearly this is not worth arguing any longer since I already answered it. As others have pointed out there are nuanced differences between what a word is pointing at. If there are 2 different words extending even unto words in different languages there are differences.  kopf & testa point to the head in German & Italian; one points to the round cabbage shape & the other where the testament or words come out of.
BUT, I seek refuge in today's hex - ZUNG zung - no profit to be had in arguing here.



Mark de LA says
seth 2014-05-13 06:16:25 17375
well it just dawned on me this morning what you guys may be talking about with this thingey called "will" ... or at AC called it "wilt".  I got this from my morning game and other erercises.  As i am contemplating the timing of  the final movement of some action, say getting out of bed, yet not doing it, there crops up many times what i can would describe as a twinge ... it is a twinge because, were i to give it propositional content, it would go something like "oh shit, i didn't do it".

Is that what you guys are talking about?

Thing is, were this wilt impulse have worked then it would have coincided with the doing itself, and therefore would have been impossible to notice.

... which, of course, gives more meaning to AC's "Do what thou wilt" ... which sans the wilt twingey would be just "Do what thou does".   Even PR's, "The consciousness commands and the body obeys" draws the same distinction.   If the body does not obey the command, you get that pesky "oh shit, i didn't do it" twinge which should perhaps be better called the "hesitation twinge" ... or er, "you missed the timing twinge".   And so it seems, that i can only notice the residue of will when it doesn't work. 

There is much more that could be said here related to the "thou" part .. or the "who commands" part ... but i will leave that for another time. 
The above could be the negative side of something like guilt about not doing something.  I would get on the positive side. What you describe above is not what the thelemic motto is about - imho. The notion of will-power, most people are afraid of not having, may be somewhere in there; rhythm & practice & consciousness strengthens the will (the PR thingy).  Like RS & GW have said a lot what we are seeking in focus upon will is mostly unconscious in the ordinary human experience.
What happens when you prepare a meal without any internal dialogue going on in your head about anything at all - kinda a zen exercise?


Seth says
well it just dawned on me this morning what you guys may be talking about with this thingey called "will" ... or at AC called it "wilt".  I got this from my morning game and other erercises.  As i am contemplating the timing of  the final movement of some action, say getting out of bed, yet not doing it, there crops up many times what i can would describe as a twinge ... it is a twinge because, were i to give it propositional content, it would go something like "oh shit, i didn't do it".

Is that what you guys are talking about?

Thing is, were this wilt impulse have worked then it would have coincided with the doing itself, and therefore would have been impossible to notice.

... which, of course, gives more meaning to AC's "Do what thou wilt" ... which sans the wilt twingey would be just "Do what thou does".   Even PR's, "The consciousness commands and the body obeys" draws the same distinction.   If the body does not obey the command, you get that pesky "oh shit, i didn't do it" twinge which should perhaps be better called the "hesitation twinge" ... or er, "you missed the timing twinge".   And so it seems, that i can only notice the residue of will when it doesn't work. 

There is much more that could be said here related to the "thou" part .. or the "who commands" part ... but i will leave that for another time. 

Seth says
Einai 2014-05-12 12:19:22 17375
-SNIP-

Well "will" and "intention" are two different words ... the question is whether they name the same thing or not.  As far as i can tell they do.  Or at least i have not heard of any test that would allow me to distinguish. 
Look up the etymology on them if you need help (see links) or even a dictionary . Clearly this is not worth arguing any longer since I already answered it. As others have pointed out there are nuanced differences between what a word is pointing at. If there are 2 different words extending even unto words in different languages there are differences.  kopf & testa point to the head in German & Italian; one points to the round cabbage shape & the other where the testament or words come out of.
BUT, I seek refuge in today's hex - ZUNG zung - no profit to be had in arguing here.



well if these two words do name different things, then it seems that a distinction could be found and specified.  provide two true sentences using each and see if they remain true when the words are switched and adapted to mere syntactic usage and linguistic sound. 

or said more plainly, if there is some step between plan and action ... between intention and deed ... then show me where it is that i can get a hold of it.

there is no argument here, simply honest inquiry. 

Mark de LA says

Consciousness, on the other hand, is what’s
there, and at the same time doesn’t exist in
what’s there. It is the foundation, space, and
possibility for both awareness and cognition to
occur. It is the “mother” of mind, intellect,
intuition, perception, knowing. Consciousness
both doesn’t exist, and is existence. So do you
see where I’m going with this, and the direction
or distinction I’m making? Really grasping it
can only be done directly, to be “one” with
Consciousness, so to speak. And that’s not
common. 

(Peter Ralston Winter 2012 Newsletter last page)


Seth says
source: mark
The above could be the negative side of something like guilt about not doing something.  I would get on the positive side. What you describe above is not what the thelemic motto is about - imho. The notion of will-power, most people are afraid of not having, may be somewhere in there; rhythm & practice & consciousness strengthens the will (the PR thingy).  Like RS & GW have said a lot what we are seeking in focus upon will is mostly unconscious in the ordinary human experience.
What happens when you prepare a meal without any internal dialogue going on in your head about anything at all - kinda a zen exercise?

... well yes of course.   As you should be able to tell i am in the process of recognizing the experience ... not judging it.  In the case above it is about the background against which the thingey is distinguished.  If you think about it this must have come from GW's exercise of trying to become conscious of will.  Thing is, when will works, it and the doing are indistinguishable ... as, er, they, er, should be. 

You have a good example there, with preparing a  meal when my will is in sync with the kitchen and the cooking ... it is effortlessness power ... er, Zen if you want to call it that. 

So to me it is all about timing and alignment of my being ... it is a dynamic attitude.  There is right will and wrong will ... and turbulence and obliviousness. 

The thing is to get the words right so we know between ourselves of what we speak ... and that itself is not about the words ... you cannot get there by studying the derivation of these words and the relationship between those marks.

Mark de LA says
seth 2014-05-13 08:46:20 17375
source: mark
I suspect that the zen meal prep did not occur with consciousness for you but just the words & signs.
... ... wow ... why would you suspect that ?   I would say that i am hyper conscious of what i am doing when i am in "The Zone" when i cook.   And, no i do not cook with word and signs  except when i write in my blog .
You should then have no trouble finding a train of will except in your words & desire to write-up your own pile.


Mark de LA says
seth 2014-05-13 19:01:19 17375

I think becoming aware of "pure will unassuaged of purpose" seems to me to be a rather trivial exercise.  i've done it many times ... just make some small movement that is easy and otherwise meaningless and mediate on what wills it to happen ... like move your finger now ... something like that.   The best i get is just a "i do this now" awareness, unvoiced or course.  Tell me your experience there, i would be truly interested. 

incidentally it  might be an interesting exercise to discover what willed your recent responses to my last few comments.
KEWL, you got it, then we don't need to add any more to the pile of words on the subject.
DONE!
fup

Mark de LA says
Another side & point of view in today's Yi King Commentary here. The whole hex about changing one's stripes. See the bunch here
"Sleek thy tiger's coat, divine & act"


Seth says

I think becoming aware of "pure will unassuaged of purpose" seems to me to be a rather trivial exercise.  i've done it many times ... just make some small movement that is easy and otherwise meaningless and mediate on what wills it to happen ... like move your finger now ... something like that.   The best i get is just a "i do this now" awareness, unvoiced or course.  Tell me your experience there, i would be truly interested. 

incidentally it  might be an interesting exercise to discover what willed your recent responses to my last few comments.

Mark de LA says
seth 2014-05-13 08:41:04 17375
Einai 2014-05-13 08:28:55 17375
I know your heart is in the right place, but I suspect you landed back on Planet Gibberish.
"of course" one can't learn of will by talking about it with words, eh?  Maybe focus on a symbol such as
instead & point to it that way.
In my Brain there are 7 tai shu commentary pages with clues.  I could give them but it might be a waste of my time.  I suspect that the zen meal prep did not occur with consciousness for you but just the words & signs.


hmmm ... so you reject my experiences and point back at your words

i suggest you learn how to go beyond words.  perhaps even realize that they are objects of the metaworld and to see the other world you need to see threw them. 

in ... er other words ... tell me of your experiences ... rather than words that you have read.
Have you left the planet yet? I rejected nothing except a pile of words. You didn't like my words. I don't like your words.  I gave you a symbol that at this time you have only a verse on & can adopt to point at the real life experience of will as much as you can do that consciously. You were talking about past cooking experience.  I doubt still that you have cooked anything with the total point of purpose to experience will by itself (or the topic of this item)  ... pure will unassuaged of purpose ....  etc.


Seth says
characterizing an honest dialogue as a "pile of words" is just to say that you refuse to see through the words to understand what they mean.  me, i don't think that would be a very useful alignment of thinking to doing.

Seth says
Einai 2014-05-13 09:18:37 17375
seth 2014-05-13 08:41:04 17375
Einai 2014-05-13 08:28:55 17375
I know your heart is in the right place, but I suspect you landed back on Planet Gibberish.
"of course" one can't learn of will by talking about it with words, eh?  Maybe focus on a symbol such as
instead & point to it that way.
In my Brain there are 7 tai shu commentary pages with clues.  I could give them but it might be a waste of my time.  I suspect that the zen meal prep did not occur with consciousness for you but just the words & signs.


hmmm ... so you reject my experiences and point back at your words

i suggest you learn how to go beyond words.  perhaps even realize that they are objects of the metaworld and to see the other world you need to see threw them. 

in ... er other words ... tell me of your experiences ... rather than words that you have read.
Have you left the planet yet? I rejected nothing except a pile of words. You didn't like my words. I don't like your words.  I gave you a symbol that at this time you have only a verse on & can adopt to point at the real life experience of will as much as you can do that consciously. You were talking about past cooking experience.  I doubt still that you have cooked anything with the total point of purpose to experience will by itself (or the topic of this item)  ... pure will unassuaged of purpose ....  etc.


Come on now Mark ... you are getting into hostility and that is not going to get use anywhere. 

Obviously these sentences here are not the agency of discovering anything about will.  They are thinking about it ... hopefully with both of our minds.  They describe ... they do not do. 

Seth says
The dialogue has actually helped my modeling.   I started out denying that will could be distinguished from the doing itself.  Now, after this thought i think it can.  If instead of the word "will" we use a more descriptive term like "final motivation", then certainly we can understand that  it exists.  If i get out of the bed to take a pee, then relieving my bladder was the final motivation.  We now can experience all kinds of situations and become aware of what the "final motivation" was that instigated the deed. 

Mark de LA says
seth 2014-05-14 08:02:38 17375
Einai 2014-05-14 07:39:06 17375
My using fup indicates that although you were getting something out of it I was getting frustration & the feeling of wasting time & the feeling of getting argued with & the feeling that my best thoughts were being ignored or tossed aside for your own train of thought. Actually, if you read what I said & your responses to them you rarely if ever agree on the meaning of words - unless I accept your definitions - hence this just becomes a pile of words:

well the easiest way to leave a dialogue is jut not ever to respond to it again.  It is not really necessary to piss on it on the way out the door.  it feels  strange to tell you that because i know you already know it ... yet you seem to habitually do this thingey instead.  perhaps now you know that *i* am aware that you do it out of habit. 
Look in the mirror you have just done so yourself.  Maybe we can't get rid of the RWG as a primary metaprogram.
maybe YOU can just


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