Representation and Representing

About: ... in which we arrive at truth as a collapsed rubber band.

A representation is a thing standing in one context meaning something else in another context.

seth


Now i am taking the word "representation" to mean the same as the word "symbol" or "sign".  "Standing" here means just "existing within" ... and "mean" here is the same as "pointing to" or "referring to".  So there are alternative ways to say this same thing, for example ... "A symbol points to something in another context",  "A sign exists in one place referring to another place" ... all of those are alternative ways of saying the same thing.  

 
We can depict this with a simple arrow with the tail in one context standing there and representing what the head is pointing at in another context.


Now there are some peculiar ... er perhaps pesky ...  characteristics or representations:  Anybody can make them and anybody can choose what sign is placed at the head of the arrow to point to that thing.   Not only that but it must be remembered (interperted) that the sign at the head means that to which it points.  And there again, anybody can interpret that sing to point to whatever.  Now, of course, we always try to make our signs explicit such that anybody in our context will interpret them to mean the same thing.  But try as we will, contexts change, and people will change how they interpret the representation.  That is just the nature of this beast.

Magic: is moving the tail of the representation ... and er ... expecting the head in the WORLD to move in tandem.

One thing i know about representations is that they are chosen, more or less arbitrarily, and must be interpreted by a person to mean something.  As we move from a single mind to minds networking together into a group or civilization that same applies.  Only relative to the single mind it becomes very complex, and turblent,  yet still and all that same one way arrow applies.  When the tails of the representations move with their heads in the WORLD we have what i call truth or synchronicity or even synergy.   When they don’t we have something else ... fiction, imagination, contraversy, and even somtimes we create something entirely new.  Moving the tails of the representation and expecting the head to move in tandem happens either when they are synchronized or just merely withing the mind of a group subjectively.   I am not so very sure that the latter is useful to me.  What is useful is achieving the synchronicity.

to be continued ...

Tags

  1. representation
  2. signs
  3. symbols
  4. representing
  5. interpersonal
  6. representationalism
  7. magic
  8. arrows
  9. abstractia
  10. magik
  11. IDK
  12. LOA
  13. KeepingItReal
  14. WhoKnows
  15. great
  16. MakeShitUp
  17. opinion
  18. TuQuoque

Comments


Seth says
Einai 2014-05-23 08:44:34 17396
Equivocation ===> (leading to in Bozo's mind) ==> conditional entropy

Well the amount of flexibility and/or interpretation in the choice of a representation, and to what it points could be called something similar to "equivocation".  I think you could even model the length of the arrow as proportional to that.  One could even measure it if one could find something more reasonable to gauge it against.

Suffice it to say that as that equivocation (that unknown, that error) decreases to zero, the arrow, the rubber band is not stretched at all, and we have arrived at direct non-representational  experience and that could be called "the best truth that one could experience in that context" about that particular thing.

Thanks for noticing .   Of course my supposition is that is is not just Bozo's mind ... and how that relates to entropy i have not had a chance to think about yet.

Mark de LA says
Why not use CyberMind style mentography to identify & spell out what you are talking about here instead of block diagrams or google block diagrams.


Seth says
Einai 2014-05-25 07:20:37 17396
Why not use CyberMind style mentography to identify & spell out what you are talking about here instead of block diagrams or google block diagrams.


Well actually the arrow is the same arrow used in mentography and even the surrounding circles are the same ones use to border the collection of a context.  This diagram pictures the starteling differences in texture between the context labeled mind, and the other context labeled WORLD.  I seem to remember a paragraph or two at the start of RS's philosophy of freedom which said substantially the same thing. 

Block diagrams would be saying something different, so you would need to say something with them for me to get your idea there.  Note this diagram is timeless ... block diagrams, if i know of which you speak, usualy depict a sequence of operations. 

Seth says
Incidentally we can depict in this style of diagram what the word "abstract" refers to.  Unlike a  concrete word like a name of something specific in the WORLD (the arrow pointing from mind to WORLD), a abstract idea points back right inside the mind itself (an arrow pointing inside the mind) ... it is mind representing mind, rather than mind representing WORLD.

Mark de LA says
Maybe just one more for refresher:


Mark de LA says
Einai 2014-05-25 09:22:37 17396
Einai 2014-05-25 09:18:29 17396
The genius behind the CyberMind mentography was the CYthought & the ITthought - not the arrow; both travel down different trees - the program tree & the data/content structure. An analogy might be thought & will in the triad.  For the human one could add a 3rd EMOthought or something like that & describe some form of experience.
I hate block diagrams, mostly because the flow is not obvious.  I hate flow charts becasue they are obvious & difficult to read in bulk. I will not be discussing them.

If you are just diagramming SVO you might as well write in English & fuck the diagrams altogether.

The guy smiling is the "I" - 2 examples:

Seth says
Einai 2014-05-25 12:17:25 17396
I'll get back to you on the magic(k) thingy.  Strange how you seem to want it but your attitude, whomsoever that represents, seems to want to piss on it first. I have been reading book SUN which seems more direct in some ways, but it is old ditto 77.55 yrs ago & smeared & won't duplicate very well & represents GW's ontology as of Chicago of the year 1936.
Being VERY CLEAR on exactly what you want, want to happen & how it will manifest is step 1 outside of dedicating your life to the Great Work (the good of the Cosmic ALL) & possibly pulling your head out of your ass.


Well there is a thing that can happen that we can call magic ... it is what it is, regardless of what you call my pissing on it.  Me i am only interested in what it is and how it works ... i think for myself and not just within the literal words of some ancient writing ... which according to you should not even be paraphrased.

One thing i know about representations is that they are chosen, more or less arbitrarily, and must be interpreted by a person to mean something.  As we move from a single mind to minds networking together into a group or civilization that same applies.  Only relative to the single mind it becomes very complex, and turblent,  yet still and all that same one way arrow applies.  When the tails of the representations move with their heads in the WORLD we have what i call truth or synchronicity or even synergy.   When they don't we have something else ... fiction, imagination, contraversy, and even somtimes we create something entirely new.  Moving the tails of the representation and expecting the head to move in tandem happens either when they are synchronized or just merely withing the mind of a group subjectively.   I am not so very sure that the latter is useful to me.  What is useful is achieving the synchronicity. 

Seth says
Einai 2014-05-25 10:04:44 17396
Yeah! My CyThought landed on suprise - nothing here - displayed disappointment. Took a piss & went back inward.

indeed.   I have those kind of habits too ... it seems my life is all about going beyond them ... getting out of those grooves.   

Bear in mind that shit like this is work in progress reaching for some new representation of some new possibility  that may or may not occur as expected.  Thse are the basics, which in and of themselves should not be controversial because, if interpreted as intended, do not contradict any particular ontology, even yours ... (except perhaps truly bizarre ontologies which do not even acknowledge the indirect representation of mind). 

Like i said i had hoped to shed some light on the kind of magic that happens when manipulating symbols causes change in the world or will.  Remember how we carried the sacrament in the Essee ceremony ... and were told not to drop it ... that were we to drop it the whole community might be destroyed.   That is truly symbol, mere representation, changing will and/or the WORLD.  How does that work?  Can we learn how to effect our intentions?  If accurately expressing the the predicament in a representation can we read method from it?  ... or how does magic work?

Seth says
Einai 2014-05-25 09:28:30 17396
Einai 2014-05-25 09:22:37 17396
Einai 2014-05-25 09:18:29 17396
The genius behind the CyberMind mentography was the CYthought & the ITthought - not the arrow; both travel down different trees - the program tree & the data/content structure. An analogy might be thought & will in the triad.  For the human one could add a 3rd EMOthought or something like that & describe some form of experience.
I hate block diagrams, mostly because the flow is not obvious.  I hate flow charts becasue they are obvious & difficult to read in bulk. I will not be discussing them.

If you are just diagramming SVO you might as well write in English & fuck the diagrams altogether.

The guy smiling is the "I" - 2 examples:

............................................................................................................

well yes certainly .  

The arrows are just the representaions on which the active being swims.  I got into a bit of that in 17301 and elsewhere in mental topography

But the human mind does not operate like a computer and society does not change according to a pre-designed program.  To get closer to how those work, me thinks we need to go beyond a mere mem stack.

On a practical note, representing this shit does help me become more aware of it.  I had hoped to get into some of the magic of how doing something symbolically affects the WORLD ... that is where we jump contexts.  NLP specifics methods to do that ... but they are missing something ... at least for me ... that is kind of what is driving me.



Seth says
Your birdie thingie is just you trying to get me to stop using the word "we" ... but talking as we is exactly what we do when we form a civilization.  Your agenda has been recognized over here ... and will be so tagged mark decomposes language.  I'm going to ignore you agenda there as much as i can, but if it gets too obnoxious i will just start deleting it.  Now if it is anything other than just a obnoxious agenda, please explain objectively. 

Seth says
Well i don't even hold your ideas about magik or magic any way really because you have never said anything about it to me ... er, ever ... that i can remember.  Perhaps at times you have quoted some literature about it, or perhaps waved at it ... not really the same thing.  The only time i remember you talking about magik was when you related the sory about manifesting something for Common Logic ... something about just going and buying it.  So no, i do not really know how you hold magik. 

Notworks exists quite apart from their use in electronics.  Hopefully every time i use the word network you won't be flashing about electronic networks ... those are just a particular class of the natural phenomena in the WORLD. 

d'A and his group is probably crawling near something that i would call magic ... but not really being a part of that, it is not something that i feel like judging.  i think that joy and synchronicity ... which is the salient edge of LOA, imho ... is almost certainly where tails of representations move with their heads ... one reaches out and it is simply there.  pee on that how you like ... me, i'm not really interested in your judgements like that ... they just serve as a distraction.

You ask what i want from all of this .... er, synchronicity !

Seth says
Einai 2014-05-27 08:43:09 17396
Maybe join the LOA crowd w/ d'A whenever & wherever his nomads land  The context in which you hold me & my ideas about magic(k) is completely wrong.  The title of this item has a birdie in it as well.
You may be wanting the network or electric Internet brain to tell you what you want as long as you can say that's Me & the things you have rejected are neg !,Me . Who knows? I don't get here what you want out of magic even trying to extract that from the words you leave behind.




not sign?



Seth says
Einai 2014-05-27 09:51:57 17396
seth 2014-05-27 09:24:03 17396
Einai 2014-05-27 08:43:09 17396
Maybe join the LOA crowd w/ d'A whenever & wherever his nomads land  The context in which you hold me & my ideas about magic(k) is completely wrong.  The title of this item has a birdie in it as well.
You may be wanting the network or electric Internet brain to tell you what you want as long as you can say that's Me & the things you have rejected are neg !,Me . Who knows? I don't get here what you want out of magic even trying to extract that from the words you leave behind.




not sign?


WHATHEFUCKEVER, dude.

Well i could not respond to yours above without hyperlinking to your pesky "not sign" ... so i fixed the erroneous HTML code that you left for me.  I have no idea what you did in your editing to create the predicament ... nor does it matter.  Perhaps if you wish to express why you linked to "not sign" we might learn what you intended ... or not ... your choice. 

Mark de LA says
seth 2014-05-27 09:25:28 17396
Well i don't even hold your ideas about magik or magic any way really because you have never said anything about it to me ... er, ever ... that i can remember.  Perhaps at times you have quoted some literature about it, or perhaps waved at it ... not really the same thing.  The only time i remember you talking about magik was when you related the sory about manifesting something for Common Logic ... something about just going and buying it.  So no, i do not really know how you hold magik. 

Notworks exists quite apart from their use in electronics.  Hopefully every time i use the word network you won't be flashing about electronic networks ... those are just a particular class of the natural phenomena in the WORLD. 

d'A and his group is probably crawling near something that i would call magic ... but not really being a part of that, it is not something that i feel like judging.  i think that joy and synchronicity ... which is the salient edge of LOA, imho ... is almost certainly where tails of representations move with their heads ... one reaches out and it is simply there.  pee on that how you like ... me, i'm not really interested in your judgements like that ... they just serve as a distraction.

You ask what i want from all of this .... er, synchronicity !
Yor may or not have noticed the logo of Common Logic Inc & the phrase "synergy of individuals" which, unfortunately decomposed around the time we had a meeting of the board & some (I think Nate) - don't know about YOU - had suddenly three separate ideas & emphasized individualism instead of the synergy part. At that meeting I remember I stressed the idea that the ends & the means had to be true, beautiful & good to be within Common Logic. THat was my first attempt to translate a principle into a manifestation on the reality plane. tsk .. tsk ..tsk ... .  I'm sure the exact correlation between synergy & synchronicity - the latter seems to be similar timing with the root for time in the middle of the word.
He who has ears let him hear.


Mark de LA says
I will if I work up the desire to be a politician. I am working on a set of principles in 17413 to see if people can even subscribe to principles of governing anymore. 
I think a lot better on my own, however.  I may do research in other sources, but I think on my own.


Seth says
source: mark
Yor may or not have noticed the logo of Common Logic Inc & the phrase "synergy of individuals" which, unfortunately decomposed around the time we had a meeting of the board & some (I think Nate) - don't know about YOU - had suddenly three separate ideas & emphasized individualism instead of the synergy part. At that meeting I remember I stressed the idea that the ends & the means had to be true, beautiful & good to be within Common Logic. THat was my first attempt to translate a principle into a manifestation on the reality plane. tsk .. tsk ..tsk ... .  I'm sure the exact correlation between synergy & synchronicity - the latter seems to be similar timing with the root for time in the middle of the word.
He who has ears let him hear.

Come on now, of course i remember the synchronicity/synergy that was at the heart of Common Logic.  That is the same that i seek still today.

Your idea that the ends and means had to be true, beautiful and good is something  which i still deny is a practical rule that can be implemented in the way you propose.  That was ... imho ... er an attempt to move the tail and expect the head to just walk along ... magic and synergy simply does not work that way. 

I think synchronicity is what a single mind feels when their mind is in step with their hands and the WORLD.   Synergy is the same thing only felt by the group. 

Timing is important ... me thinks it should not be wished away.  Were that we were trying to do something together here i would have said that in the first person plural. 

 

Seth says
Einai 2014-05-27 09:58:06 17396
seth 2014-05-27 09:49:24 17396
Your birdie thingie is just you trying to get me to stop using the word "we" ... but talking as we is exactly what we do when we form a civilization.  Your agenda has been recognized over here ... and will be so tagged mark decomposes language.  I'm going to ignore you agenda there as much as i can, but if it gets too obnoxious i will just start deleting it.  Now if it is anything other than just a obnoxious agenda, please explain objectively. 
How about when you use the word WE you are assuming the LIE that I am necessarily with you in your pile of words, huh? Your authority to speak for other people exceeds your ethos to do so, &/or is in your mind mostly. It works both ways.  I rarely use the word we when I mean I. Politicians however use it all the time.


Usually when i use the word "we" i am proposing a possibility that you will include yourself in that we.  You, of course, being a sovereign agent can accept or deny the proposal.  I almost always am quite aware that you will accept or deny your inclusion in that group just according to your own will and emotion.  That is, after all, the nature of communication.  er ... just saying something does not make it so.  Try using "we" yourself when you want to form a consensus within a group ... it should highlight the awareness in each individual of the group whether they are with you or not. 

Seth says
Einai 2014-05-27 11:13:27 17396
Einai 2014-05-27 11:09:50 17396
syn- Look up syn- at Dictionary.comword-forming element meaning "together with, jointly; alike; at the same time," also sometimes completive or intensive, from Greek syn (prep.) "with, together with, along with, in the company of," from PIE *ksun- "with" (cognates: Russian so- "with, together," from Old Russian su(n)-). Assimilated to -l-, reduced to sy- before -s- and -z-, and altered to sym- before -b-, -m- and -p-. Since 1970s also with a sense of "synthetic."

this all seems to me to be talking about the tail of the representation "syn-" which is a mere fragment of a word and has very little to do with where the head of the arrow representing synchronicity is pointing.  Me thinks one would need to have experienced that phenomena to know what is actually meant by the word. 

Seth says
source: mark
Some dudes know that the prefix & suffix of a word MEAN something as well & can change the context of the root! Others have no ears to hear with.
The middle of the word or root is chron (time) & (work - also related to energy) -synergy but I already thought you knew that. 

Well both synchronicity and synergy are related to things changing ... er time ... beyond that i doubt that the construction of the word will give us much of a hint.  Really Mark, we cannot derive the meaning of these words from their constituent parts.  Words simply do not work that way.  At best you can get a hint from the construction of the word what it might be about ... but to get at what the person who coined the word actually meant you need to look behind the words.  In this case we are not even talking about what those words meant to the people who coined them but rather what they mean to us today. 

Mark de LA says
While discarding etymology - a field of study of language - in particular the wisdom embedded in language over the ages - bozo prefers modern usage. But how does Bozo get the meaning of a word? There are contemporary usage dictionaries.
Here is definition for synergy & here is one for synchronicity from Merriam Webster Dictionary of American Usage.
What appears here is that synergy is a cooperation in work synchronicity is just a cooperation in time at best coincidental. Obviously this is my interpretation of the words in the usage dictionary just mentioned.
To munge the words together obliterates the distinction.
Can there be one word with such a synchronous-synergy meaning? ... whatever meaning means?

Semantics is supposed to deal with meaning. Generative Semantics seems to be where Bozo is going.
My question still remains .
Does Bozo just make up meanings based on himself? Who does he consult if not?

If one wants to discard the past & focus only on now - what is the future worth? It is fantasy at best is it not? That may (or not) be worth a pondering if one is interested in magic(k) unless one can have every moment of NOW be magic(k)al.


Seth says
source: mark
They are 2 different words even though mungable by the Bozo - synergy & synchronicity.
I presume that you have had experiences where you knew a person by one name and knew of their reputation by another.  So that even though, to use a classical example, "Clark Kent" and "Superman" are quite different names, they do refer to the self same being in the context of the DC Comics story.  When one equates them one is actually saying something, not just munging or flapping one's lips.  For example if you did not already know, and i tell you that Clark Kent is Superman, that story will never be the same for you. 

That is what i am doing by saying that synchronicity is synergy.  The only distinction is who feels it, an individual or a group.  Now you certainly can disagree and even call one of them something entirely different like "energy"  but for your disagreement to be legitimate you cannot talk just be about the tails (the words) of those particular representations ... for those are quite arbitrary anyway ... your disagreement in order to actually communicate to me  must be about where the the heads of the arrows point. 

You did that a bit here ...
source: mark
The former [synergy] is about potentiation of the energy in a system by two different entities & the latter [synchronicity] is about rhythm ; the former might said to be about harmony & the latter about morphogenic fields & resonance . Some of those thoughts can merge like resonance & timing but both have a higher level principle which has not been articulated yet.

be we may still be talking about different things here ... or perhaps even related things from the different viewpoint of differing ontologies ... in other words you might be describing the same thing only with different words or something different entirely.   if you are interested we can expand into another item just about your ideas of synergy and synchronicity and how they differ from mine.   Or alternatively you can just lay down the law, the scripture, and call me a confused bozo, and i can ignore you, and think that you are simply an asshole.  

Seth says
Einai 2014-05-28 11:13:29 17396
seth 2014-05-28 10:28:21 17396
Einai 2014-05-28 09:16:22 17396
BTW most people get married & even say vows without knowing wtf they mean by the act. Ask your spouse someday what it means doing a double-blind test.

Yep, like i have been saying, it takes a person (or group) to interpret a representation to mean something ... otherwise it is meaningless.  That people will arrive at different interpretations (or none at all) is just the way mind works.  The fact that we need to work at it ... to negotiate meanings between our different minds ... to ask and answer questions of each other to arrive at a consensus ... is where our cooperative juices start flowing.  Is that juice not good?  ... yes the juice is good!
Yep, I forgot ... you are only interested in your own points. Enjoy.
... hey, express your point. 

up to now, you have not really said anything.  on the other threads mostly all you have done is to argue about the words i used.   I keep waiting for you to actually say something about the topic.  what you have said hinted at things but did not elaborate.  those were the ones i requoted and responded to.  So if you do have a point here about the actual topic,  then please by all means express it.  i actually am all ears.

Seth says
Einai 2014-05-28 09:04:01 17396
seth 2014-05-28 08:32:48 17396
source: mark
What appears here is that synergy is a cooperation in work synchronicity is just a cooperation in time at best coincidental.
that is closer ... but if we can think about it, i think we can get even closer.


There are times when i accomplish things effortlessly, needed resources arrive in my grasp at the right time,  and movement through the WORLD is joyous and easy.  I call that "synchronicity".   I have heard of similar things happening within a group and being called "synergy".  Both that which i have called "synchronicity" here, and that which is called "synergy" are experiences which are real and actually exist.  Now here is what i am saying ... it is something new ... something that i have not heard anybody else ever say.   Those two things are the same thing ... the only difference is who experiences them ... in the first case it is me personally ... in the second case it is the group.  I also suspect that both of those experiences can be caused by similar changes.

I do not intend to argue about the words that describe that recognized pattern ... those are unimportant.  If this were a common recognition there would be lots of names specificall just for it.  Even the words i have used are not yet exactly precise in their description ... they are just the best that come to mind at this moment.  Can you not see that your arguing about the words that i am using, instead of what they are pointing to,  is just obstructing your hearing of what i am saying? 
Well, maybe what you describe is what d'A calls the results of LOA.  Others describe it as "being in the zone" .


... and do you not see the resemblance in LOA and being in the zone to what others have described as synchronicity and synergy?  Perhaps go read some of those first person descriptions of those experiences where those words were used and actually see if the same kind of things are being described. 

Seth says
some interesting points you have raised ...

source: mark
Does Bozo just make up meanings based on himself? Who does he consult if not?
When i recognize something in the WORLD or even abstractly about my mind or civilization, then if i can represent that thing in my mind, i have made up the meaning of that representation.  That is almost true just analytically, that is by definition ... at least to my ontology.  The trick is to get others to interpret my representations to mean the same thing.  Not an easy task ... especially when the recognition is something that is not very common already.  Getting others "made up" meanings is just the same process in reverse.  Before we had a well developed language i surmise that all such meanings were so made up.  Me thinks things have been getting better over the centuries and especially now with the Internet ... even despite efforts to degenerate our language .... er, don't you?

source: mark
If one wants to discard the past & focus only on now - what is the future worth? It is fantasy at best is it not? That may (or not) be worth a pondering if one is interested in magic(k) unless one can have every moment of NOW be magic(k)al.
... well i don't know what you are driving at here.  the past is there in memories and habits.  were that it not be so, we could be like a babies  ... amazed by everything ... would that be "magical"? ... well sure you could call it that.  is there some connection between that state of innocence and what i call "synchronicity" ... i don't know ... for me synchronicity happens despite and in the light of habits and memories and is where my thoughts, feelings, and deeds are synchronized with the WORLD in some NOW.  Perhaps a baby is always that way.  I think thought and feelings mostly do come from the past flowing from our memories and habits ... were we able to suppress that flow then we would experience as babies.  Is that what you're driving at?


Seth says
Einai 2014-05-28 09:04:01 17396
seth 2014-05-28 08:32:48 17396

The words synergy & synchronicity are already taken & according to usage are used by most everyone else as described in the usage dictionaries I extracted from. How do you expect to communicate if you don't use words in the same way as others? Chinese uses pictures & etymology goes back to the basics as well. I could use this as what you mean:
keentzubufokhwun & condense it down via fon cheek , but that might turn your stomach.  How again am I to guess what you are pointing at if words have no precision? Do we have to negotiate about what you are pointing at which you are experiencing & I am experiencing differently given your words?
The legend of the Tower of Babel reminds me of the predicament. Then too we could use a whole paragraph instead of a word or maybe even a book everytime we want to point at something.  The Oxford Dictionary of Usage does the latter here.

Like i said, talking about the words and not the things themselves ... obsessing about the tails of the representations instead of what the heads are pointing to ... is just keeping your focus away  from the topic at hand.  It might be some fun game to play in a debating team, but sorry i don't have time for it now.

Seth says
source: mark
Sorry, I wasted too much energy on it this AM - I could shout & you wouldn't hear any better than you already did.  The gain on your own material is always louder.  Even when I write about things on my own items it is the same old story of you rephrasing what I write to fit your world view & expecting assent. Enjoy the snow (or whatever).

Absolutely, my own mind sounds louder to me, than my simulation of yours will ever sound over here.  I suppose that there is an extreme case of empathy, an extreme case of devotion to another,  where a person could be different in that regard.  But, no Mark, that is not the case here.  In any case,  you should know that i do listen quite intently to that which i can understand of what you say and even try to simulate how it feels to you, and then how it feels to you to say it to me.  Then when i respond i try even to simulate how what i say back will feel to you to hear it.

And yes i continually try to absorb the things you say and then express them myself just according to how i see the world.  But, no, i do not expect your assent, if my expression of your material yet conflicts with your own.  Beleive me when i tell you now that is completely contrafactual to the way things actually exist over here in my mind.  What i do, however, is hope that you will take the time to objectively describe why my expressions still conflict with your own.  That knowledge is what is in it for me. That is usually why i took the time to carefully respond to your writing.  I'm sorry that you feel that giving me that information is a wast of your time ... but i do still kind of understand that attitude ... after all you would not immediately feel its benefit yourself.

Mark de LA says
seth 2014-05-29 08:46:23 17396
source: mark
Sorry, I wasted too much energy on it this AM - I could shout & you wouldn't hear any better than you already did.  The gain on your own material is always louder.  Even when I write about things on my own items it is the same old story of you rephrasing what I write to fit your world view & expecting assent. Enjoy the snow (or whatever).

Absolutely, my own mind sounds louder to me, than my simulation of yours will ever sound over here.  I suppose that there is an extreme case of empathy, an extreme case of devotion to another,  where a person could be different in that regard.  But, no Mark, that is not the case here.  In any case,  you should know that i do listen quite intently to that which i can understand of what you say and even try to simulate how it feels to you, and then how it feels to you to say it to me.  Then when i respond i try even to simulate how what i say back will feel to you to hear it.

And yes i continually try to absorb the things you say and then express them myself just according to how i see the world.  But, no, i do not expect your assent, if my expression of your material yet conflicts with your own.  Beleive me when i tell you now that is completely contrafactual to the way things actually exist over here in my mind.  What i do, however, is hope that you will take the time to objectively describe why my expressions still conflict with your own.  That knowledge is what is in it for me. That is usually why i took the time to carefully respond to your writing.  I'm sorry that you feel that giving me that information is a wast of your time ... but i do still kind of understand that attitude ... after all you would not immediately feel its benefit yourself.
Yep - you will be you and I will be me to the bitter end (using a nautical term) - not exactly this picture but close
- when the rope breaks the free end is the bitter end in sailing & boatswain terms; usually cleaned up & tied down to something solid so as not to unravel.


Mark de LA says
seth 2014-05-29 09:50:14 17396
source: mark
Yep - you will be you and I will be me to the bitter end (using a nautical term) - not exactly this picture but close
- when the rope breaks the free end is the bitter end in sailing & boatswain terms; usually cleaned up & tied down to something solid so as not to unravel.

yes indeed ... and well said.

Of course the rope needant break at all.  That is the fun part ... er, at least for me.  It just feels so sweet when i can say back to you, "yes i see your point and agree with it" ... or even, "yes yes, well said indeed".  That, using your analogy, would be where the rope does not break and there would be no bitter end .  no?

It seems you avoid those moments yourself ... i miss hearing them from you ... i have always supposed they are just too sweet for your pallet .
Yep - argue the analogy rather than get the point ... I think it broke:
The tug in opposite directions - to our own egos - supports the metaphor & analogy.


Seth says
source: mark
Yep - you will be you and I will be me to the bitter end (using a nautical term) - not exactly this picture but close
- when the rope breaks the free end is the bitter end in sailing & boatswain terms; usually cleaned up & tied down to something solid so as not to unravel.

yes indeed ... and well said.

Of course the rope needant break at all.  That is the fun part ... er, at least for me.  It just feels so sweet when i can say back to you, "yes i see your point and agree with it" ... or even, "yes yes, well said indeed".  That, using your analogy, would be where the rope does not break and there would be no bitter end .  no?

It seems you avoid those moments yourself ... i miss hearing them from you ... i have always supposed they are just too sweet for your pallet .

Seth says
Einai 2014-05-29 10:04:52 17396
seth 2014-05-29 09:50:14 17396
source: mark
Yep - you will be you and I will be me to the bitter end (using a nautical term) - not exactly this picture but close
- when the rope breaks the free end is the bitter end in sailing & boatswain terms; usually cleaned up & tied down to something solid so as not to unravel.

yes indeed ... and well said.

Of course the rope needant break at all.  That is the fun part ... er, at least for me.  It just feels so sweet when i can say back to you, "yes i see your point and agree with it" ... or even, "yes yes, well said indeed".  That, using your analogy, would be where the rope does not break and there would be no bitter end .  no?

It seems you avoid those moments yourself ... i miss hearing them from you ... i have always supposed they are just too sweet for your pallet .
Yep - argue the analogy rather than get the point ... I think it broke:
The tug in opposite directions - to our own egos - supports the metaphor & analogy.


... hmmm ... well i think i did understand your analogy quite thoroughly ... even to the point of realizing that the tug of war pulls our egos against where we want them to go ... and finally when the pull is to great, the rope breaks and you stomp away with a bitter end ... er, or so it seems over here. 

Why then would you resent me using your brilliant analogy to cover the sweeter case?

Mark de LA says
seth 2014-05-29 10:18:37 17396
Einai 2014-05-29 10:04:52 17396
seth 2014-05-29 09:50:14 17396
source: mark
Yep - you will be you and I will be me to the bitter end (using a nautical term) - not exactly this picture but close
- when the rope breaks the free end is the bitter end in sailing & boatswain terms; usually cleaned up & tied down to something solid so as not to unravel.

yes indeed ... and well said.

Of course the rope needant break at all.  That is the fun part ... er, at least for me.  It just feels so sweet when i can say back to you, "yes i see your point and agree with it" ... or even, "yes yes, well said indeed".  That, using your analogy, would be where the rope does not break and there would be no bitter end .  no?

It seems you avoid those moments yourself ... i miss hearing them from you ... i have always supposed they are just too sweet for your pallet .
Yep - argue the analogy rather than get the point ... I think it broke:
The tug in opposite directions - to our own egos - supports the metaphor & analogy.


... hmmm ... well i think i did understand your analogy quite thoroughly ... even to the point of realizing that the tug of war pulls our egos against where we want them to go ... and finally when the pull is to great, the rope breaks and you stomp away with a bitter end ... er, or so it seems over here. 

Why then would you resent me using your brilliant analogy to cover the sweeter case?
That's something you imagined (I guess) on your piece of rope.

Seth says
Einai 2014-05-29 10:29:34 17396
seth 2014-05-29 10:18:37 17396
Einai 2014-05-29 10:04:52 17396
seth 2014-05-29 09:50:14 17396
source: mark
Yep - you will be you and I will be me to the bitter end (using a nautical term) - not exactly this picture but close
- when the rope breaks the free end is the bitter end in sailing & boatswain terms; usually cleaned up & tied down to something solid so as not to unravel.

yes indeed ... and well said.

Of course the rope needant break at all.  That is the fun part ... er, at least for me.  It just feels so sweet when i can say back to you, "yes i see your point and agree with it" ... or even, "yes yes, well said indeed".  That, using your analogy, would be where the rope does not break and there would be no bitter end .  no?

It seems you avoid those moments yourself ... i miss hearing them from you ... i have always supposed they are just too sweet for your pallet .
Yep - argue the analogy rather than get the point ... I think it broke:
The tug in opposite directions - to our own egos - supports the metaphor & analogy.


... hmmm ... well i think i did understand your analogy quite thoroughly ... even to the point of realizing that the tug of war pulls our egos against where we want them to go ... and finally when the pull is to great, the rope breaks and you stomp away with a bitter end ... er, or so it seems over here. 

Why then would you resent me using your brilliant analogy to cover the sweeter case?
That's something you imagined (I guess) on your piece of rope.

... hmm ... well that resentment is what i picked up from my interpertation of you saying "Yep - argue the analogy rather than get the point ... I think it broke".   Because i did get the point and was not "arguing the analogy" ... but rather was using it.  It sure seems like you resented me using your analogy because you said you thought the rope broke. 

Mark de LA says
seth 2014-05-29 10:34:36 17396
Einai 2014-05-29 10:29:34 17396
seth 2014-05-29 10:18:37 17396
Einai 2014-05-29 10:04:52 17396
seth 2014-05-29 09:50:14 17396
source: mark
Yep - you will be you and I will be me to the bitter end (using a nautical term) - not exactly this picture but close
- when the rope breaks the free end is the bitter end in sailing & boatswain terms; usually cleaned up & tied down to something solid so as not to unravel.

yes indeed ... and well said.

Of course the rope needant break at all.  That is the fun part ... er, at least for me.  It just feels so sweet when i can say back to you, "yes i see your point and agree with it" ... or even, "yes yes, well said indeed".  That, using your analogy, would be where the rope does not break and there would be no bitter end .  no?

It seems you avoid those moments yourself ... i miss hearing them from you ... i have always supposed they are just too sweet for your pallet .
Yep - argue the analogy rather than get the point ... I think it broke:
The tug in opposite directions - to our own egos - supports the metaphor & analogy.


... hmmm ... well i think i did understand your analogy quite thoroughly ... even to the point of realizing that the tug of war pulls our egos against where we want them to go ... and finally when the pull is to great, the rope breaks and you stomp away with a bitter end ... er, or so it seems over here. 

Why then would you resent me using your brilliant analogy to cover the sweeter case?
That's something you imagined (I guess) on your piece of rope.

... hmm ... well that resentment is what i picked up from my interpertation of you saying "Yep - argue the analogy rather than get the point ... I think it broke".   Because i did get the point and was not "arguing the analogy" ... but rather was using it.  It sure seems like you resented me using your analogy because you said you thought the rope broke. 
Yep you are going to be you & I am going to be me - no resentment at ALL that would be a LIE on my side of the abyss. Anyway I could trace back to bolded part & before it where you affirmed your way of saying that your own gain will always be louder etc, but at this point there is no further point - nor point about points.  There are more interesting things going on at my end of the rope & I am going to affix it to the bulkheads of different items.


Seth says
Einai 2014-05-29 11:41:07 17396
seth 2014-05-29 11:08:46 17396
Anyway you did say it different than my paraphrase.   I didn't actually notice at the time.  I think that i subconsciously avoided the obvious interpertation of one word.   Note the difference ...

Mark:  The gain on your own material is always louder.

Seth: my own mind sounds louder to me, than my simulation of yours will ever sound over here.

So i had interpreted your word "gain" to be analogous to the volume control on a speaker.  After your subsequent comments now i think that was a misinterpertation.  You apparently meant it to mean "an increase in wealth or resources" ... in this case ego gain. 

So apparently you presume that this rope is actually tugging against my ego.  Does it then feel strange to you that unconsciously i rejected that interpretation?   Maybe these tugs over here are not quite so very attached to my ego as they are on your end. 

... anyway that possibility might be something for you to consider ... eh?
You had gain right in the first place - like volume control - signal amplification.
~
Anyway maybe recognize that the RWG compels trying to get the last word & extends that with the sub program of being right in spite of how the conversation went previously; there finally being a lot less emphasis on the other side being wrong.  That being said, please enjoy the last word (or not) .


Well usually i tell myself that my motivation for continuing a thread is that i discovered a additional aspect that was not previously developed or discussed.   Now whether my motivation has a greater component of ego gain and less of a component of discovering new material ... er, i do not really know ... sometimes more sometimes less ... hard to be totally objective.

Incidentally i get almost a bigger ego gain by walking away first ... like a silent way of expressing contempt.   but what i am always going for is the sweetness of a meeting of minds acknowledged ... to me that is an increase in mutual awareness.   A content free last response doesn't really float my boat.   I don't know if you knew that. 


Mark de LA says
Mark de Los Angeles 2016-05-14 09:22:18 [item 17396#52030]
Strange coincidence but this item showed up in my 17762 – today’s throw hex 7 line 2 (mostly private). Last October:  2015-10-24 18:10:12 – a Saturday (naturally) 203 days ago. It was just noted that : laughing
Seth 2016-05-14 09:32:22 [item 17396#52032]
surprisecool kewl … glad you think about this shit too. 
What probably happened is that we argued about it on that morning as evidenced above. smug

Mark de LA says
Mark de Los Angeles 2016-05-14 08:36:08 [item 17396#52022]
Were there any takers? I didn’t find any.  The idea that masturbating mind symbols is ever going to lead to some more refined encounter of the World or any great grok of consciousness awaits the ending of your sleeve-job tale. 
laughing
Seth 2016-05-14 09:37:29 [item 17396#52034]
this, what you call “masterbating mind sysmbols”,  is not just my idea of what to do.  rather it is my description of what we have been doing all along as we have become more and more human.   it is the nature of our beast.   but the fact is, it is useful to do … try to imagine our world working, our culture working, without these symbols being passed around. 
As I replied elsewhere:
Mark de Los Angeles of group mark 2016-05-14 09:47:03 20922%252352035

Mark de Los Angeles 2016-05-13 17:49:30 [item 20922#52000]
http://wn.rsarchive.org/Lectures/GA293/English/RSP1966/19190902a01.html – Genius of Language.
That’s why I am studying the Genius of Language in the above RS.  The Tower of Babel notwithstanding, in previous epochs language was more powerful & actually created beings & stuff but with only a dim consciousness & little freedom . In the future it may be used for reproduction. So goes some GW & RS material. We have to go through a period of having such withdrawn so that logic & the rational prevails & then the spirit-self & spirit-man  & spirit-life can thrive in one more spiral of human evolution. That’s my inspiration – perhaps irrational to Bozo. 

Si says
Naw, I don’t buy that. Magic is simply doing something unexpected and having it work out. Stage magic or wizard magic doesn’t change the definition … it is solid.  

As far as moving the heads and tails in any relationship, that simply sounds like circumstances to me. Circumstances are as mutable as one believes them to be. Nothing more or less than that. Your definition above seems to be about one particular set of beliefs, that’s all … not a general principle.

I wrote about my experiences with this very thing today at Little magical circumstances.

Seth says
i wonder what relationship different people hold regarding #representation and #magik. 

are those different topics entirely ? …

or are they intrinsically related. 

Si says
#IDK. I simply wonder, why make so many distinctions? What is that buying? Any map can be given more detail, broken out into an atlas with individual pages for each section, and so on to infinity. There is no limit to the number of distinctions that can be made. But what is yet another distinction getting you in this case? Where are you wanting to go that you couldn’t navigate to with one of the larger, simpler, maps, like #LOA?

Mark de LA says
In the 1800’s a bozometric Dalton invented atoms to explain everything – these days it’s down to much smaller things in the subatomic particles  – explains everything – nothing but atoms – not magic at all – one big bang – simple. 
 

Si says
Interesting. I have found it interesting how lately you advocate strongly for magic … even in your signature. But at the same time emphatically deny ALL forms and representation of magic around you … push them away as if they are not the real deal, but some trick being presented to you.

Seth says
well for me the difference is looking at something in 100 pixels or 10000 pixels.   The higher the resolution the more that is experienced and the deeper the experience.  To me your #LOA model is like about 10 pixels … much too simple.  Now i know to you it must be more since it is working …. but me over here, i am getting maybe about 10 pixels worth of your representation.  And, #KeepingItReal every time you wave at those 10 pixels as being the ultimate thing,  the pixels of it look fewer and fewer null.

Si says
Actually, the basic model is only 5 pixels. But those 5 pixels can be extrapolated out and used to successfully navigate anywhere in reality you want to go. I can do that. You can dump me anywhere, in any concept, and I can use just #LOA to actually navigate to anywhere else and successfully show any relationship that any of us can observe about the concept. The map works, even with only 5 pixels, it works. Your reactions to it are about the technical aspects of the map, not about how easily it can be used or how well it navigates.

You simply don’t like how it feels in your hand (right now) … because you are so used to a paper map instead of this new fangled GPS thing that is crazy weird and only has a few buttons.  If you gave it an honest try, and learned how to use it without all the pages, you would see that it can get you where you are going 50 times easier, no matter where you want to go in your reality matrix.

Mark de LA says
Less interesting is assigning magic to mere coincidences & claiming #LOA is happening. #WhoKnows –more mystifying hottentots with eclipses, eh? 

Mark de LA says
The older I grow the more wisdom shows up & the more beliefs I throw away even as fast as they show up on the Internet. nullnull

Mark de LA says

Seth says
well i am using #LOA more and more … it is #great …

but ...

mostly you just #MakeShitUp when you say things about me.   maybe it is because you firmly you believe that  you can “actually navigate to anywhere else and successfully show any relationship that any of us can observe about the concept”  even thought those concept relationships are unknown to you and quite outside of your access.

maybe that might give you a clue why your 5 pixel system does not always work so very well outside of your closed mind which is 100% in control of its inputs.

Si says
Not sure why you are lumping in the things I say about you with #LOA. In my mind, they are separate. You and I have our own thingy going on. When I talk about you, I usually don’t do it in an #LOA frame, I just say what is.

Seth says
yeah sure, you speak your own truth even about me … or said differently you expess your #opinion about what is happening over here. 

probably has nothing to do with you practicing #LOA … maybe we are talking about two different things at the same time null

Mark de LA says

Si says

Si says
Or maybe the older you grow the more well entrenched you become in your core beliefs and your ability to fend off what is not those core beliefs so that you are more secure in your box. That point of view would equally match the same circumstances you are internally observing about yourself.

… you choose, and do so consciously please.  

Mark de LA says
Talking to yourself again. #TuQuoque
 
Free yourself & get rid of beliefs ! - M.R.

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