Time as Illusion

It is not the timeline that is important, but the moments you populate your life with that gives the sense of time & direction. If for you existence is infinite & your form & being is mutable or changeable within existence then what does that say about time? Fixed? Relative? Irrelevant?

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Tags

  1. emole
  2. time
  3. mole
  4. relative
  5. illusion
  6. change
  7. item 17405

Comments


Mark de LA says
Ever notice that things don't come out of memory in sequence? One has to exert some kind of effort to put them in sequence - kinda like rememory.


Mark de LA says
seth 2014-05-23 09:45:28 17405
Well time is not an illusion ... er, or so my logical thinking apprehends ... and yes time is relative to the observer of that sequence of changes.   I rather suspect that you want to wish time away ... and instead glory in that which does not change ... and your emotion about that would be destroyed were your mind to accepted my logical apprehension.  So don't accept it!  After all it is otherness to you ... you can well just be oblivious to it ... no need even to explain. 
Thanks for the second serving of emole - I am quite full now.



Mark de LA says
seth 2014-05-23 08:48:03 17405
Einai 2014-05-23 08:34:48 17405
Ever notice that things don't come out of memory in sequence? One has to exert some kind of effort to put them in sequence - kinda like rememory.

like i mentioned above, the sequential nature of the experience of the changes is relative to that which notices it.  one person will experience (or remember) the changes in a different sequence than someone else ... and, er ... even the same person will remember the sequence differently at different moments.   The sequence is just the dimension.  Time is the sequence of changes ... or if you want to eliminate the one-to-one comparsion ... a sequence of different things.
Thanks for your contribution & sharing. I think you missed the taste of my point as usual - it was quite simple & didn't need your extra pile of words (ketchup?). There is some overlap in our contexts but the fun & the thrill is gone.
Henceforth, I*m going to use the term emole to represent both the sauce served up in Mexican Restaurants (mole) as well as the whack-a-mole feeling served up here at fbi where subtle ideas & wallabies are turned into over-intellectualized brownish sauce.


Mark de LA says
seth 2014-05-23 08:02:01 17405
Einai 2014-05-23 07:57:37 17405
seth 2014-05-23 06:29:32 17405
relative.   for me internally time is just the dimension (sequence) against which i notice change.  it is not an illusion to me, otherwise i would need to deny that i can notice change ... or said differently i would need to notice that nothing changes ... but that would be a denial of my experience.  others notice different changes in different sequences, therefore the time i experience is relative to me.  but there are too many unknown meanings in your sentence for me to logically conclude that from it. 
Sequence is not the same as time although  some might think so.

how about a sequence of changes?
Maybe at some mathematical level like in partial differential equations of equations or something like that.  I think of change as 2 different states of whatever compared with each other - nothing like a sequence which is usually longer than two & has direction.


Mark de LA says
A study of projective geometry will also collapse the notions of space in that the assumption that what is local behaves & looks like what is extremely far away (infinity) & visa versa is illusional.
But, I am sure you can argue against that too!


Seth says
Einai 2014-05-24 09:17:47 17405
seth 2014-05-24 09:08:37 17405
the models of what is called "matter" are representations ... if you want to call those representations illusions, me thinks you are just saying that the rubber band between the representation and the actual experiences and changes themselves is stretched pretty far.  or maybe you're saying the experiences and changes are fictions, just in *your* mind ... er, strange then that i can have and see them too ... eh?
Models & representations are not IT, whebever you are pointing to IT. If they further confuse they are not useful.  I would rather encounter the things themselves.  I have consciousness, experience space & have a relative view of time & space & matter is sensory.


Yeah obviously my model of a mind is not a mind, nor is it the things (your IT) which get represented in a mind.

I too would rather encounter the things themselves (your IT) but unfortunately my being is so constituted that i can only encounter representations of THEM.  Perhaps you are much different in that regard, then i assume that the distance between IT and your encounter is negligibly small ... or in other words your awareness and focus is quit acute indeed.  Then WOW ... er, I wish i were you!

Mark de LA says
Apparently even matter is illusion if you get into sub atomic particles & energy & quantum physics.  Now is that imaginary, illusion or real?  What about worm holes & black holes. Mathematics or mathematical imagination. If you don't like my link maybe watch some Stephen Hawking.


Mark de LA says
seth 2014-05-24 08:13:21 17405
Einai 2014-05-24 06:58:39 17405
Funny thingy is that the yiking has a lot to say about change & very little to say about time. Most of the 64 contexts for change (the hexes) are timeless & location independent.


well, it seems to me that the hexes are about changes and therefore about times ... er different ones.  time itself is the awareness of those going one to the other to the other to the other ... er in a sequence.  the assumption is that they are independent of any particular person or place .... otherwise some ancient monarch and his garden would have been named in each ... like Darmok and Jalad at Tanagra.
You have assumed your own premise and are wrong. You also missed the point. More study & less opinion might help, but maybe not.


Mark de LA says
seth 2014-05-24 08:47:59 17405
imagining without notions ... of change ... of space ... of even person ... is fun.  FYI, i can do it too.  i can represent such in my mind.  my question is always how stretched is the rubber band between those representations and the changes ... the places ... the people actually involved. 

incidentally how vivid is your representation ... what does it feel like?  Can you represent that to me?
Maybe in some parallel universe where your ontology makes linguistic sense to me or to us both, but not as you ask it.
I once attended a lecture somewhere pre-Tony Robbins, where the speaker invited us to go back to our grammar school & look at the furniture & the desks & grok the difference between that & how we held it as little children.  You will have to do that exercise in your imagination since I suspect that our first school has been demolished. This topic is an extension & expansion of that thought experiment. It is also an extension of the age old notion that subjective time is fast when you are enjoying yourself & slows up if not.  Some even say when they are in the groove that time disappears entirely. Since retirement, my time is not so hectic & is much more relaxing.
Physicists even munge space & time together nowadays. My experience of those is different.
From the ancient tai shu: Book 45-Sun 0,18 pg 23 - imprecise (or not), for me inspirational - but not rubbery imho





Mark de LA says
seth 2014-05-24 09:08:37 17405
the models of what is called "matter" are representations ... if you want to call those representations illusions, me thinks you are just saying that the rubber band between the representation and the actual experiences and changes themselves is stretched pretty far.  or maybe you're saying the experiences and changes are fictions, just in *your* mind ... er, strange then that i can have and see them too ... eh?
Models & representations are not IT, whebever you are pointing to IT. If they further confuse they are not useful.  I would rather encounter the things themselves.  I have consciousness, experience space & have a relative view of time & space & matter is sensory.


Mark de LA says
seth 2014-05-24 13:00:11 17405
Einai 2014-05-24 09:17:47 17405
seth 2014-05-24 09:08:37 17405
the models of what is called "matter" are representations ... if you want to call those representations illusions, me thinks you are just saying that the rubber band between the representation and the actual experiences and changes themselves is stretched pretty far.  or maybe you're saying the experiences and changes are fictions, just in *your* mind ... er, strange then that i can have and see them too ... eh?
Models & representations are not IT, whebever you are pointing to IT. If they further confuse they are not useful.  I would rather encounter the things themselves.  I have consciousness, experience space & have a relative view of time & space & matter is sensory.


Yeah obviously my model of a mind is not a mind, nor is it the things (your IT) which get represented in a mind.

I too would rather encounter the things themselves (your IT) but unfortunately my being is so constituted that i can only encounter representations of THEM.  Perhaps you are much different in that regard, then i assume that the distance between IT and your encounter is negligibly small ... or in other words your awareness and focus is quit acute indeed.  Then WOW ... er, I wish i were you!
Well, Book SUN does a good job of explaining the connection between the abstract & the concrete words & thoughts in terms of human evolution. Once humans in previous epochs held the spiritual world as real as we today hold the physical world. The roles of abstract & real has switched & in our day the abstract is of the spirit & the physical is real. One has to train one's focus & abilities like in the old days trigonometry was magic today beholding the being/spirit of  trigonometry & mathematical concepts is magical. Somewhere along evolution things may come together again with a new freedom. One could speculate about the spirits of form, light etc where form itself is being as is light, but that is all it is.  I don't know what being you are chasing here, or in 17396 - perhaps the being of Language, Communication, the Gnostic domains of whatever ...
Note the Greek & Roman gods were embodied in Art. The Tree of life is a fair map of some of this stuff. Your own abstractness seems more like invention than perception, that is why I occasionally rag on it. Some of it needs more personal digestion & contemplation.



Mark de LA says
seth 2014-05-25 09:28:20 17405
source: mark
Well, Book SUN does a good job of explaining the connection between the abstract & the concrete words & thoughts in terms of human evolution. Once humans in previous epochs held the spiritual world as real as we today hold the physical world. The roles of abstract & real has switched & in our day the abstract is of the spirit & the physical is real. One has to train one's focus & abilities like in the old days trigonometry was magic today beholding the being/spirit of  trigonometry & mathematical concepts is magical. Somewhere along evolution things may come together again with a new freedom. One could speculate about the spirits of form, light etc where form itself is being as is light, but that is all it is.  I don't know what being you are chasing here, or in [item 17396] - perhaps the being of Language, Communication, the Gnostic domains of whatever ...
Note the Greek & Roman gods were embodied in Art. The Tree of life is a fair map of some of this stuff. Your own abstractness seems more like invention than perception, that is why I occasionally rag on it. Some of it needs more personal digestion & contemplation.


Well i think humanity evolved its consciousness pretty much as a child evolves hers as she grows up.  We grow from vague impressions to more specific awareness.  So perhaps, what you, on RS's authority, are calling "of spirit" and "magic", i am calling "vague impressions".   But I prefer to think my own thoughts, perhaps advised and inspired by the elders.  So when i am representing the actual WORLD i refuse to think only within the literal thoughts of others where i cannot myself perceive (represent) the edges of the things involved.  Though i would gladly sit at their feet around the campfire listening enthralled to their tales of adventure in far away lands of beauty and splendor. 

Obviously i am chasing here an awareness of awareness itself and how that spreads (gets communicated) outside of a single mind. 

There is nare a hint in me of "gnostic domains" ... that appears to me more as something you and GW were enthralled with ... er, not my thing.  In fact AC explicitly stated the essence of that train of thought in this passage which i saved from one of your contexts and he said it without even using any mystical symbols.
Yep - expected that - you & Nate are in agreement at least in part. Such is why I won't waste any more time with your ontology, viz.   I can add one small thingy to Nate's wolf:

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