Hard Problem of Consciousness

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Also see the Wikipedia.  I tend to think Peter Ralston said it mostly or that GW has said that it is a fundamental property of each ultimate particle in the Universe.
source: ...

Consciousness, on the other hand, is what’s
there, and at the same time doesn’t exist in
what’s there. It is the foundation, space, and
possibility for both awareness and cognition to
occur. It is the “mother” of mind, intellect,
intuition, perception, knowing. Consciousness
both doesn’t exist, and is existence. So do you
see where I’m going with this, and the direction
or distinction I’m making? Really grasping it
can only be done directly, to be “one” with
Consciousness, so to speak. And that’s not
common. 

(Peter Ralston Winter 2012 Newsletter last page)

...

Tags

  1. consciousness
  2. chalmers

Comments


Mark de LA says
Could consciousness itself be the Spiritual World itself?


Mark de LA says
To confuse consciousness with the design of an electro-chemical low-priced meat computer is similiar to confusing the cause & effect relationship that exists between a mushroom growing under a tree & the tree.  Oh! look at that mushroom that the tree caused. Similar is the problem to expecting that the cause of the letters in the word shit is that the s caused the h which caused the i and then the t. The money is safe with Deepak Chopra. Consciousness is more fundamental than matter.


Seth says
Einai 2014-06-18 06:25:45 17485
Could consciousness itself be the Spiritual World itself?


yes i think it is 

Seth says
Incidentally the PR comment you quoted above didn't, for me,  get anywhere close to what  Chalmer's called the "hard problem" that you made this item about.  Chalmers is talking about qualia .. or why anything has any characteristic feeling to it at all ... as opposed to just being sensitive to occurrence and responsible for it  ... which, er, even a machine can be constructed to do. 

Mark de LA says
seth 2014-06-18 17:04:58 17485
Einai 2014-06-18 16:48:22 17485
seth 2014-06-18 16:19:09 17485
Einai 2014-06-18 13:55:53 17485
We do have the experience of something waking up & something going to sleep.

Yes we do ... and when we wake up do we interact more or less with our surroundings and the people therein ?   Does that not give us a giant hint as to what direction to look for our consciousness?
KEWL! Write it up & we can split the prize!

well it is only a big deal to somebody who is looking for it in the opposite direction.  And doesn't really explain or model it ... just points the direction to where little old me thinks this thingey happens.  So sorry, no Nobel prize.  I rather suspect that others have said substantually the same thing ... unfortunately i haven't done enough scholarship in the field to know who or where.   Anyway i'm pretty sure even you think i am quite full of shit here ... and who knows, maybe i am.

Incidentally there are quite a few other clues as to this direction ... like for example the onset of consciousness ... and others i am sure could be found.
WOW! Keep going ! ... the cheese is somewhere out there! 50-50 eh?


Seth says
well not looking for cheese ... just looking for consciousness ... your latest taunting term notwithstanding. 

i don't think there is even a right or a wrong ... a true or a false ... on this one ... just really a choice.  there is a strange symmetry in our different views ... that is actually kind of a trip for me to grock ... might be kind of harder to see that from your view though, because yours apparently requires a strong commitment to ego ... mine rather a strong commitment to otherness.



Mark de LA says
seth 2014-06-19 06:58:47 17485
well not looking for cheese ... just looking for consciousness ... your latest taunting term notwithstanding. 

i don't think there is even a right or a wrong ... a true or a false ... on this one ... just really a choice.  there is a strange symmetry in our different views ... that is actually kind of a trip for me to grock ... might be kind of harder to see that from your view though, because yours apparently requires a strong commitment to ego ... mine rather a strong commitment to otherness.


Well then, maybe continue holding onto the question "What is Consciousness?" until the "cheese" (maybe Limburger) shows up. Obviously you have not yet found the answer, then or maybe you like the debate more than the answer.  Or as Obi-Wan "Ben" Kenobi would say:


Mark de LA says
seth 2014-06-18 10:39:27 17485
Einai 2014-06-18 09:58:30 17485
seth 2014-06-18 09:45:38 17485
Einai 2014-06-18 09:05:30 17485
seth 2014-06-18 08:48:45 17485
Einai 2014-06-18 08:37:16 17485
seth 2014-06-18 08:34:49 17485
Einai 2014-06-18 08:27:18 17485
seth 2014-06-18 08:21:14 17485
Einai 2014-06-18 06:48:38 17485
To confuse consciousness with the design of an electro-chemical low-priced meat computer is similiar to confusing the cause & effect relationship that exists between a mushroom growing under a tree & the tree.  Oh! look at that mushroom that the tree caused. Similar is the problem to expecting that the cause of the letters in the word shit is that the s caused the h which caused the i and then the t. The money is safe with Deepak Chopra. Consciousness is more fundamental than matter.

when you look at consciousness .... watch out what direction you are looking.  i may well not be in the direction that some of the stories you have been told have led you to believe. 
Mostly when I look at consciousness, I look at consciousness not stories - from scientists or occultists or maybe even relatives.


yes certainly.   but do you look into yourself ... or do you look out at things which are interacting with you?
I focus on consciousness itself.

well well good for you ... different strokes and all ... also is hard to describe in language what you actucally are doing ... i don't know if you noticed that .... er, language does fail us here.

for me, looking directly at this phenomena itself makes it dissapear ... like staring at a starr ... yet not staring at the star makes it appear better.   but the way i seem to see this thingey is not to close my eyes and look deep inside myself.  no, rather it is to look outside myself at the things that i actually am conscious of.  time is a wierd thing when it comes to this action ... for what happened a moment ago or even years ago is currently contributing to this moment that is conscious right now.  strange thingey, eh?
.. & language describes things & points at stuff. Maybe consciousness is not a thing nor stuff. Language also fails to describe color to a person who has been born blind or never had eyes. A similar failure of language seems to exist contemplating being where being & doing often get munged. Maybe being conscious of something or aware of something isn't consciousness itself. I'm yet unsure whether consciousness requires an ego or not.


hmmm ... well obviously language is used to point at things that and not just stuff ... and just as obviously consciousness is not stuff like the cup or the pen or the rubber band sitting on my desk right now.  commonly we use it to point to emotions and internal states of our beings that all of us have and so there are words for them.   pains and pleasures come easily to mind ... but surly we have names for subtler and subtler phenomena. 

thing is ... and i know you hate me saying this again and again ... but people do feel things differently inside themselves ... and then too we get some of these subtle names differently associated to different things.  Now this name "being" is just such a name that has gotten all differently associated in you than it is associated in me.  I don't think there is a right or a wrong here at all ... inside either of us.  But understanding that we are using the same token differently is, me thinks, necessary to ineviatibly understand what the other is talking about.   I think we need to look at indiviual usages and not just assume that when i say, "i am trying to be clear here" ... or "i am being clear here" ... how that relates to me saying, "my being is clear" ... or "i am being" ... or "i am a being" ... or that "our culture is a being too" ... or that "our culture is being stupid".
So language is fairly inadequate to describe consciousness. At best it might be used to describe a process for contemplating consciousness or answering the question "what is consciousness?". The rest of your discussion is not about consciousness.


Well the more we use language to actually communicate about any particular topic, the better it gets for that purpose.  Of course if we are just using language to play some RW game, well then it gets better for playing the game and not for communicating about some particular topic.  Or, in other words, the more we talk about consciouness in English focusing on consciousness, the more we will understand what each other are saying.  Luckily language has grown in our being to do just that .

The rest of what i said was about our use of the word "being" ... and how it differs between us.   Er, you mentioned it in this context first ... and i also think that difference is central to how our different minds name these things that happen when consciousness happens.
Yeah, I want to keep this subject in the spirit of the The Hard Problem of Consciousness. Maybe keep the distractions on [a totally munged-up: item 17482] .  I mentioned being as another subject along with color which language fails at.


Mark de LA says
seth 2014-06-18 11:40:53 17485
Incidentally the PR comment you quoted above didn't, for me,  get anywhere close to what  Chalmer's called the "hard problem" that you made this item about.  Chalmers is talking about qualia .. or why anything has any characteristic feeling to it at all ... as opposed to just being sensitive to occurrence and responsible for it  ... which, er, even a machine can be constructed to do. 
Well my second comment answered the question. You are not going to find the answer in the low-priced electro-chemical meat computer no matter how many more words you invent, use or munge. You may go right ahead and feel good that you are doing so if you like. Prolly not here though.


Mark de LA says
seth 2014-06-18 12:11:08 17485
Einai 2014-06-18 12:04:36 17485
seth 2014-06-18 11:40:53 17485
Incidentally the PR comment you quoted above didn't, for me,  get anywhere close to what  Chalmer's called the "hard problem" that you made this item about.  Chalmers is talking about qualia .. or why anything has any characteristic feeling to it at all ... as opposed to just being sensitive to occurrence and responsible for it  ... which, er, even a machine can be constructed to do. 
Well my second comment answered the question. You are not going to find the answer in the low-priced electro-chemical meat computer no matter how many more words you invent, use or munge. You may go right ahead and feel good that you are doing so if you like. Prolly not here though.

you are chancing a straw man here ... as i am not trying to find qualia in "the low-priced electro-chemical meat computer.   I think pretty much everybody who has studied consciousness would not look to bio chemistry to find qualia. 

Now, you might be curious (probably not) where I am looking for it ... er, but why should i say it again ... i've already said it all over the place on this topic ... you are getting quite good at ignoring it. 

So you exchange whatever qualia are for consciousness?  . In the context of the Deepak Chopra challenge I consider it settled. His million$$$ are safe.


Mark de LA says
I am not too much concerned with the events that go on in the mind/soul etc. Nor necessarily am I concerned with what goes on in kio .  This question is about what is consciousness itself. Deepak called out the scientists & skeptics on what it was or its mechanisms. I like the ming character & the others which even make further distinctions ... see page 24 of hwa chi

Mark de LA says
I could simply revise the above meme to say "These are NOT WORDS you are looking for" or say the soft non-problem of consciousness is [to be found in: item 17490]
wou


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