The wisdom of the natural seperating of being

About: aka The Lucifer Principle


 
Ever wonder why they don’t put two one way streets running in different directions along the same path?

There is strength and power and sustainability in differentiation ... in spreading out ... in new growth finding its own niche ... in it not interfering with old existence because it is separated into a new channel.  Recognizing that "force" is what this item is all about.

In fact you can feel this power working in your own life when you separate functions moving different ones into a new channels or rooms or times. 

It is ducently difficult to find an image to represent this force ... and even harder if one wants to anthropomorphize it.  This abstract colorful mess is the best i can find at the moment. Thanks markchadwick.

new…..


Book Review …

The Lucifer Principle
book by Howard Bloom, sees social groups, not individuals, as the primary "unit of selection," on genes and human psychological development. It states that both competition between groups and competition between individuals shape the evolution of the genome. The Lucifer Principle "explores the intricate relationships among genetics, human behavior, and culture" and argues that "evil is a by-product of nature’s strategies for creation and that it is woven into our most basic biological fabric".[1] It sees selection (i.e. through violent competition) as central to the creation of the ’superorganism[2] of society. It also focuses on competition between individuals for position in the ’pecking order’ and competition between groups for standing in pecking orders of groups. The Lucifer Principle shows how ideas are vital in creating cohesion and cooperation in these pecking order battles. Says The Lucifer Principle: “Superorganism, ideas and the pecking order’these are the primary forces behind much of human creativity and earthly good.”

Wikipedia

I have not read “The Lucifer Principle” but i suspect it contains some knowledge that can explain and predict some of the things (spirits same thing) that i am experiencing.   But one think i suspect even without reading is that the association of “Lucifer” in the title does not match RS’s spiritual stories of that being.   So that is a bit of a scramble.  For that reason i have  removed the tag lucifer from my thought here.  

That said the principle of life expanding, differentiating,  spreading out into separate #niche’s, niche, is central to my understanding of life itself. 


PS:  i just remembered the connection of this principle to lucifer or #lucifer  or #Freedom or freedom.   Lucifer is associated with freedom.  If a group grows, then that yields more freedom to the group as it spreads out. 

PPS: then that needs to be reconciled with GW’s “Pride is Lucifer, less than human shape” which associates this same being with #pride or pride or even #SelfLove 

tag #InsideOutside 

Tags

  1. dualism
  2. experience
  3. outsides
  4. insides
  5. qualia
  6. two-way streets
  7. otherness
  8. item 17500
  9. item 17502
  10. differences
  11. differention
  12. natural selection
  13. BullGas
  14. niche
  15. lucifer
  16. Freedom
  17. pride
  18. SelfLove
  19. SpreadingOut
  20. CounterArgument
  21. wow
  22. amazingly
  23. great
  24. LuciferPrinciple
  25. InsideOutside

Comments


Seth says
Well, me, I never did feel any Zen in RWG, just a bad feeling ... nor do i feel any Zen in A, just a good feeling.  For me both have a distinct feeling which i do believe is called a "qualia".  The amazing thingey about those qualia is that they exist at all .  Those of us who have thought long and hard about how to create artificial intelligence have thrown up our hands and had to admit that we have no idea how to do it.  It seems as if Nature herself just has a knack that we have yet to discover.

Mark de LA says
seth 2014-06-25 09:50:18 17502
Well, me, I never did feel any Zen in RWG, just a bad feeling ... nor do i feel any Zen in A, just a good feeling.  For me both have a distinct feeling which i do believe is called a "qualia".  The amazing thingey about those qualia is that they exist at all .  Those of us who have thought long and hard about how to create artificial intelligence have thrown up our hands and had to admit that we have no idea how to do it.  It seems as if Nature herself just has a knack that we have yet to discover.
Neither did I.  Did you just make some up to provide a straw man to demonstrate some Agreement game strategy or something?  The rest of the stuff there stimulated the appearance of some kind of "" qualia in the pit.

Mark de LA says
seth 2014-06-25 09:26:08 17502
Einai 2014-06-25 09:06:42 17502
seth 2014-06-25 08:58:34 17502
source: mark
I'll answer your item question this way:
Nope! Never wondered.
Thanks for wondering for us.

... nor had i until just an hour ago.

Now i'm interpreting my wonder as a humerous example of the wisdom of the natural separation of being.  It does kind of explain why biological cells divide and don't just become bigger and bigger beings.  There is a wisdom in life spreading out into different niches.  Me, i like it ... and don't want to fight that natural process anymore.
1 ...2...3  there it is.
Actually, (Me, I ..)  thought you had a zen point about 2-way streets in a metaphor there somewhere, but ....


Well i'm not so very sure why i do use the linguistic form, "me, i" so much ... i actually wondered myself consciously several times.  It obviously means just the same as just "i".  Maybe it does have something to do with "agreeing to disagree" ... it's like me claiming the right to think differently rather  than just stating my different thought.  .... how does it hit you?


Incidentally, apparently, You, you don't get the Zen of my 2-way street metaphor ... which, me, I think was definitely represented here.

Yep ... you just got into my literal answer of the question ... no zen except in the qualia-pit.
Me, I ..  is just an almost neutral way to assert your own Ego as different.  Nothing wonderful.


Seth says
source: mark
Neither did I.  Did you just make some up to provide a straw man to demonstrate some Agreement game strategy or something?
Ok, perhaps i misinterpreted your 1722 ... i was going pretty much just according to its title, "Zen & the Art of the Right-Wrong Game".  On a quick read you do there refer to "getting out of the RWG is a Zen like rare momen"

Of course, me, i don't think it is all that very rare ... good though .

Mark de LA says
Probably way out of your comfort zone but being in separate places & interpenetration are discussed in relationship to the difference between the spiritual worlds & the physical here.


Seth says
Einai 2014-06-25 08:30:24 17502
two-way streets take less room!

Perhaps you misunderstood ... i'm not comparing two separate one way streets going different directions.  I'm comparing the absurd example of putting two one way streets going different directions on the exact same street.  Me thinks you would be getting lots and lots of collisions.  Not wise at all ... agreed?

Seth says
Einai 2014-06-25 10:44:43 17502
seth 2014-06-25 09:50:18 17502
For me both have a distinct feeling which i do believe is called a "qualia".  The amazing thingey about those qualia is that they exist at all .  Those of us who have thought long and hard about how to create artificial intelligence have thrown up our hands and had to admit that we have no idea how to do it.  It seems as if Nature herself just has a knack that we have yet to discover.
The rest of the stuff there stimulated the appearance of some kind of "" qualia in the pit.

hmmm ... why?  I thought what i said was very clear.  What part of that do you not understand?  Do you not yourself get amazed that anything at all is happening?  I think i have heard you express that feeling quite literally.  People's amazement that qualia exist is pretty much the same kind of amazement only perhaps more specific to what things feel like.  Why does blue feel blue to you? 

Perhaps if you would speak a bit about why you call "qualia" as "qualia in the pit" i would be able to share your "" on my own words.

Seth says
source: mark
I'll answer your item question this way:
Nope! Never wondered.
Thanks for wondering for us.

... nor had i until just an hour ago.

Now i'm interpreting my wonder as a humerous example of the wisdom of the natural separation of being.  It does kind of explain why biological cells divide and don't just become bigger and bigger beings.  There is a wisdom in life spreading out into different niches.  Me, i like it ... and don't want to fight that natural process anymore.

Mark de LA says
seth 2014-06-25 11:26:03 17502
Einai 2014-06-25 10:44:43 17502
seth 2014-06-25 09:50:18 17502
For me both have a distinct feeling which i do believe is called a "qualia".  The amazing thingey about those qualia is that they exist at all .  Those of us who have thought long and hard about how to create artificial intelligence have thrown up our hands and had to admit that we have no idea how to do it.  It seems as if Nature herself just has a knack that we have yet to discover.
The rest of the stuff there stimulated the appearance of some kind of "" qualia in the pit.

hmmm ... why?  I thought what i said was very clear.  What part of that do you not understand?  Do you not yourself get amazed that anything at all is happening?  I think i have heard you express that feeling quite literally.  People's amazement that qualia exist is pretty much the same kind of amazement only perhaps more specific to what things feel like.  Why does blue feel blue to you? 

Perhaps if you would speak a bit about why you call "qualia" as "qualia in the pit" i would be able to share your "" on my own words.
Qualia - individual instances of subjective, conscious experience show up somewhere.  I shun to think of using the word Soul with all the associated baggage so I call it a pit - kinda a pile of stuff without words . It is a place where, presumably it has to be cognized to become part of the Universe where we can talk about such stuff.  Still the philosophical problem of dualism remains.  RS argued it in Philosophy of Freedom. The ancient Greeks Plato & Aristotle did so as well.  We are not likely to solve it here.  The Skeptics invented science to get around the religionists. With your recent declaration 17495 personal experience is about all we can talk about & anything else is left in the pit. Your opinions & my opinions about personal interpretation of what's in the pit is cast into the wind of tears. We can get no closer.


Seth says
source: mark
Qualia - individual instances of subjective, conscious experience show up somewhere.  I shun to think of using the word Soul with all the associated baggage so I call it a pit - kinda a pile of stuff without words . It is a place where, presumably it has to be cognized to become part of the Universe where we can talk about such stuff.  Still the philosophical problem of dualism remains.  RS argued it in Philosophy of Freedom. The ancient Greeks Plato & Aristotle did so as well.  We are not likely to solve it here.  The Skeptics invented science to get around the religionists. With your recent declaration [item 17495] personal experience is about all we can talk about & anything else is left in the pit. Your opinions & my opinions about personal interpretation of what's in the pit is cast into the wind of tears. We can get no closer.

... well kewl, , i was thinking you were just mockin me, stupid me, this pit thingey makes perfect sense .

"where qualia show up" certainly refers to some stage moment/place thingey in you which also i have one inside me.   we cannot deny those existences.  i call that communication.  ...er, even a7t (a 7 letters then t - which spells agreement ).

the only other edge about this pit that i know of that you didn't mention is inside or outside it.  a pit only has access to what shows up there ... that is its insides.  in a way that logically follows even from your definition.   you could say that as "you only have access to your own pit", but then we need to introduce a new thingey, "you" or "me", yet that might be just something  embedded in the language we need to talk about it.  to say that you are in your pit and me in my pit is an assumption of which i can not find an edge ... iow, that is part of a story which either works for you or doesn't.  but to say "pits are aware only of their own qualia" might better express that same thing without the assumption.  i'm trying to introdue the concept of sovereign privileged access apart from the concept of ego ... er, perhaps badly ... but nonetheless, me thinks, an important edge of these pit thingies.  and, er, me thinks is the explanation of what people call the "duality" problem.

anyway my qualia that i am calling "good dialogue" just showed up in my pit .

Seth says
Einai 2014-06-26 08:43:59 17502
Yep, never said where the qualia-pit was, is, or is not, may be or otherwise. Inside me or not, who knows? Generalizations & rationalizations from the word as metaphor will undoubtedly end up with  more metaphors,  paradoxes, riddles & maybe even some #BullGas . Wikipedia never said anything about where it is if a location even has meaning for "it" (may be a being sort of thingy) .  The article there has proponents and critics of a qualia theory. 
There isn't much controversy in Anthroposphy about the Soul & both ancient words & ming
ones abound for the parts.

You of course can invent your own nomenclature &/or word clouds
to fit your personal experience & limitations & frontiers.


well yes we are in a7t on the non location of the pit ... and even, perhaps, that it may not have such a geographic property/dimension.  the only thing we actually know by experience is that it exists.

i have introduced the fact that it has what we could call an "inside" and what we could call an "outside".  your qualia show up inside your pit, mine inside of mine.  That is a fact that i think we could agree upon, if and only if you can verity it with your own experience.

Now there are stories around that would contradict that.  Telepathy would.  If my qualia show up in your pit, then this hard fast observation of mine would break down.  But i have never experienced telepathy, nor have i verified with my own personal experience that anybody else has.  Therefore to me, it is just a story. 

If you have experienced telepathy, you to somebody else, or they to you ... then  i would totally understand your belief that my inside/outside fact is just my story.

Seth says
Einai 2014-06-26 11:32:46 17502
Without a location - inside & outside is moot. I have some kind form of access to something that may resemble your qualia as expressed at the Wikipedia article quoted. We may be writing stories in our minds about totally different things or forms of existence or consciousness or being.


Well it does not logically follow that inside/outside implies a location.  My use of "Inside/outside" was merely to imply that there are two different views of the same thing that can be observed.  I can describe both views in detail and you should be able to verify the details of those descriptions from your personal experience.  That should be all that is necessary for a7t.  I call the different view points of the same thing "inside" and "outside" just for convenience of reference ... with no implication of location whatsoever.  An analogy would be +/- electrical charges ... theose are experienced with no property of location implied.

I see no evidence that we are talking about different things here ... but i concede we may well be.

Incidentally we really do not need a detailed description of what i call the "inside view" in the pit ... for we both know that.  But what i call the "outside view" might need a bit of description.  It has not been, to my knowledge, widely talked about in the literature under that name.  But this "outside view" of a pit is just as very factual to me as its "inside view".   Don't you want to talk about that?



Seth says
Einai 2014-06-26 13:06:19 17502
seth 2014-06-26 11:55:53 17502
Einai 2014-06-26 11:32:46 17502
Without a location - inside & outside is moot. I have some kind form of access to something that may resemble your qualia as expressed at the Wikipedia article quoted. We may be writing stories in our minds about totally different things or forms of existence or consciousness or being.


Well it does not logically follow that inside/outside implies a location.  My use of "Inside/outside" was merely to imply that there are two different views of the same thing that can be observed.  I can describe both views in detail and you should be able to verify the details of those descriptions from your personal experience.  That should be all that is necessary for a7t.  I call the different view points of the same thing "inside" and "outside" just for convenience of reference ... with no implication of location whatsoever.  An analogy would be +/- electrical charges ... theose are experienced with no property of location implied.

I see no evidence that we are talking about different things here ... but i concede we may well be.

Incidentally we really do not need a detailed description of what i call the "inside view" in the pit ... for we both know that.  But what i call the "outside view" might need a bit of description.  It has not been, to my knowledge, widely talked about in the literature under that name.  But this "outside view" of a pit is just as very factual to me as its "inside view".   Don't you want to talk about that?


I hold the geometry to be amorphous and any story you like will fit or not. Prepositions have importance: in, out, from, to .... etc. & make a difference as to who is doing what to whom etc. OTOH, Some hold their Ego to be within & some munge it into the outside world or project their Ego to be part of the entire Universe etc.


Well i think anyone who does not recognize both the inside and outside views of these qualia pits, is not being true to their own experiences.  There are stories being told which do contradict that "geometry" ... my observation precludes those stories.  Of course, the words "inside" and "outside" are not being used to describe spatial topological relationships ... but rather access to qualia.  in other words, access to a qualia implies the inside of that pit ... lack of access means observation from outside it.  For example: if i burn myself and observe my reaction in a mirror, i will have access to the burning qualia in the inside of my pit ... (you can substitute soul, it does'n sound so funny) ... if i see sombody else being burned with the same fire and observer their reaction, i do not have access to their burning qualia ... and hence i am observing their pit from the outside.

Seth says
Einai 2014-06-26 15:42:39 17502
Inside? Outside?  Who cares?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wO61D9x6lNY
I'll take another drink of cosmic kikapoo juice & think about it.


Well, my use of inside/outside, (like i said a couple times before and you have ignored), is only analogous to geometry and does not imply its location property.  Look there are a couple of other dimensional names that are expressing similar different views ... subjective/objective ... private/public ... internal/external ... intrinsic/extrinsic ... intensional/extensional  .... which do not carry the same connotation of geography or geometry.  It is also intrinsically connected to spiritual/material ... and even of me/other.  Who cares, well i care ... it's how i think about my predicament and what is happening.  Knowledge of this edge represents part of my understanding of my very being.

While the geometry of turning a sphere inside/outside was interesting it does not inform my understanding of my experience as felt by me, versus the observation of its manifestations by others.  So enjoy your kikapoo juice, but thinking about turning a sphere inside out will not be thinking about what i am talking about in this item. 

My emotional experience here is a feeling that i have truthfully expressed my reaction to your comment in this context.

Seth says
Incidentally i'm beginning not to like the word "qualia" because i think it means pretty much the same as "experience" ... i think we have yet to developed a way in the English language to distinguish what those two different words mean ... so might just as well use the more failure one. 

Does not "experience pit" better refer to what we have been talking about than "qualia pit"?




... but maybe its more of a stack or a heap or a network than a pit, eh? 



Pit, after all, carries a lot of negative baggage which is just mocking the perdicament and not informing it, ... not to mention that it also implies there is a geographic location of the pit ... which, er, we do not know ... or do not want to know yet ... a7t ?

Seth says
then too, regarding perception of insides and outsides, there is my comment this morning on ...
source: facebook here

Ohhh hail the art of the fair blushing ... and of making them blush! It's like poking your finger in their insides and then smelling it ... good though!
... a picture of a fair haired maid or lass blushing would go well here ... so just imagine same.

Mark de LA says
Einai 2014-06-27 08:09:29 17502
Yeah, well, .... where is this going?
Why did you introduce the word qualia in the first place? I have no idea where it first started.  It was not one of my words until then. I suspect is is here to focus on some aspect of dualism. The Wikipedia definition : refers to individual instances of subjective, conscious experience works. But once one goes into the subjective world he's on his own. Do words even describe half of the shit that is a subjective world? Maybe just refer to my subjective world & your subjective world & maybe a shared world if there is one.
My closest word to my subjective world is my Soul as I have mentioned several times by now.
Experience is just too mungeful & can include just about anything; personal or otherwise. One might as well use the word existence.

Mark de LA says
Nevertheless, I do enjoy conversations with you, Seth.

Seth says
Einai 2014-06-27 10:01:25 17502
seth 2014-06-27 09:38:14 17502
Einai 2014-06-27 09:09:33 17502
Kewl! I presume we're done here & the qualia are exhausted.


your too anxious .

this is actually still a fertile item for me ... just scratched the surface ... then too you have yet to a7t that there is "wisdom in the natural separation of being".
Your abbreviation doesn't work for me - but shoot your stick! Maybe join Prince or is it Prince logo.svg for obscure naming of things.
This has mostly morphed into a word pile for me. 4ME, the pragmatic & practical has long since left the building & the ontological munged into personal worlds.
 


but there are just personal worlds here ... there is no alternative that i can experience.

Seth says
source: mark
Yep, we're not going to solve dualism here as I explained before.
Well i am not sure you caught the drift, but i had almost called myself representing the solution to dualism here already .... were there actually had been a clear problem needing solution .

Clearly though that did not get represented inside of you.  Who knows, perhaps there was even hints and evidences within what you call piles of words that i store in the fastblogit SQL database.   But maybe not ... I haven't even checked ... nor could i have possibly checked the parts to which i have no privilege to  access. 

This probably is the best situation in any case, since you seem to already have certain knowledge of that solution being represented here being an impossible event.  


Seth says
Einai 2014-06-27 12:27:48 17502
Make of it whatever you desire in your private subjective world. I am trying to leave the discussion without going for RWG.  There is a qualia of boredom on the matter in my pit & I'll probably devote much less time pondering any more & probably pursue other things.
     Once truth died somewhere, the cheese died with it & in my sadness there is left behind images in form similar to left over limburger from a stray dog having eaten a lot of the cheese after contacting girardia & filling up his own trough  along side the road.
     Philosophy seems to be just a pile of words. A lot of words without results.
     If I am going to engage such I would rather it be politics - at least politics is cathartic.


well of course you need do nothing to leave any discussion without going into RWG ... all you need do is to not respond to it anymore.  in fact it is hard for me to interpret these attempts like yours above as anything other than just RWG played. 

... no need for me to " ponder" that

Seth says

Mark: A good mirror might reflect upon who agrees with whom most of the time.

Seth: are you saying that it seems to you that you agree with what i say more than i agree with what you say?



Mark de LA says
seth 2014-06-29 18:26:29 17502
Einai 2014-06-29 14:12:15 17502
Not interested in explaining to someone who does not read it.

come on now mark, you never answered my question.   it is yuou who do not read.  and it is you who never acknowledge what i say ... whether you agree with it or not.  you are projecting what you see in yourself on to me.  go back and read ... be honest.
I'm lost what is it you want?


Mark de LA says
seth 2014-06-29 12:58:42 17502
so mark, let me get this straight ... are you saying that it seems to you that you agree with what i say more than i agree with what you say?  and i am not talking about fake agreeing, i'm talking about real agreeing with the matter at hand (exlusive of ego rwg) like i defined in detail elsewhere just moments ago.

please answer directly, because what you said above about a mirror, came as a big surprise.


Yeah, I answered this in that other item as well.
...
I do enjoy conversing, but not always. I would not want to lose your conversation to the [ego problem: item 4413] .  I do as previously stated have a hard time conversing with mismatchers & polarity mismatchers are the worse for me. I guess sometime I may find the secret of doing so,
google Liber MMM had some training guide info for going beyond +/- and neutral without just ignoring stuff - I may pursue it.


Mark de LA says
seth 2014-06-29 05:33:28 17502
Einai 2014-06-27 12:46:23 17502
Nevertheless, I do enjoy conversations with you, Seth.

oh really?  You never agree with anything i say, nor even for that matter acknowledge that you even hear it.  All you tell me about is how it just sounds like a pile of words and how silly and argumentative i am.  When we get close to something that is interesting me, you suddenly loose interest or start insulting me or twisting what i said into something that i did not say.  To me that that feels like a very strange kind of enjoyment.   Were that i felt what you apparently are continually are feeling i would not call my emotion enjoyment. 

No emoticon here, just a inquiring thought.  But you will probably take this just as rwg, so that would be sad, "", as usual ... i guess we will just need to see. 
Not agreeing with you has nothing to do with enjoying our conversations.  I do sometimes find it hard to exit a conversation which has become not enjoyable due mostly to stepping back into the RWG. A good mirror might reflect upon who agrees with whom most of the time. Reframing & deframing is not agreeable without acknowledging what the other has said first.  Me, I ... notwithstanding.


Seth says
so mark, let me get this straight ... are you saying that it seems to you that you agree with what i say more than i agree with what you say?  and i am not talking about fake agreeing, i'm talking about real agreeing with the matter at hand (exlusive of ego rwg) like i defined in detail elsewhere just moments ago.

please answer directly, because what you said above about a mirror, came as a big surprise.



Seth says
Einai 2014-06-29 13:28:10 17502
seth 2014-06-29 12:58:42 17502
so mark, let me get this straight ... are you saying that it seems to you that you agree with what i say more than i agree with what you say?  and i am not talking about fake agreeing, i'm talking about real agreeing with the matter at hand (exlusive of ego rwg) like i defined in detail elsewhere just moments ago.

please answer directly, because what you said above about a mirror, came as a big surprise.


Yeah, I answered this in that other item as well.
...
I do enjoy conversing, but not always. I would not want to lose your conversation to the [ego problem: item 4413] .  I do as previously stated have a hard time conversing with mismatchers & polarity mismatchers are the worse for me. I guess sometime I may find the secret of doing so,
google Liber MMM had some training guide info for going beyond +/- and neutral without just ignoring stuff - I may pursue it.


oh shucks ... it was a simple question.  and now i have no idea how that is a direct answer to it.  

i'm beginning to think we are profoundly out of sync here.

i certainly do get that you don't like RWG and the ego stuff and try to avoid it.  I hate it myself.

I do not like that you assume that i am a "mismatcher & polarity mismatcher" ... that goes against every grain of my body ... please do not type cast me like that ... because if you presume that i am doing that all the time, you will never hear what I actually am doing.

and now Liber MM ... wtf does that have to do with whether you think you agree with me more than i agree with you.  To be honest with you, whether you agree with me or not, you never do tell me ... so how the fuck am i suppose to know.  That kind of is my point here, ya know.



Seth says
Anyway there is strength and power and sustainability in differentiation ... in spreading out ... in new growth finding its own neiche ... in it not interfering with old existence because it is separated into a new channel.  Recognizing that "force" is what this item is all about.  it is the qualia of that recognition for which this item was represented.

the rwg above was a distraction and just obscured that recognition.

Seth says
Einai 2014-07-12 14:16:13 17502
2014-07-12 14:14:02 17502
hallucinating again

Oh .... how so ?

Seth says
Einai 2014-07-12 13:25:43 17502
seth 2014-07-12 11:20:42 17502
and, incidentally since we are on the subject of Libertarian scenarios, the thrust of this item is a salient edge of any such story.
Whatever, enjoy it is your stuff.


doesn't seem to me like you actually do get this "stuff".   er, which stuff is not truly identified as "my stuff" ... but rather is the "stuff" of freedom ... aka, Liberty!  It is a salient edge of Nature.  Perhaps it is stated here from a slightly new perspective ... just so one could perhaps concieve of it differently for the first time.  Although, i doubt that it is a new idea to you.  Sorry that it contains the apparently fatal qualia for you that i said it,  instead of it coming from your customary sanctioned sources.



Seth says

The same kind of things feel different to me at different times.  I can account for that by saying i am just a moody bugger ... which is true.  But there is a good aspects of this fact:  i can see the same thing from different points of view ... or at least i can evaluate my relationship to it from the view of the different qualia that present when I am in different contexts.  [perhaps an example is required here]

I think the fact of different qualia appearing in different moods belongs here in this item because it is a force that spreads out and differentiates even in my own life.  There is, of course, a good and a bad side to this inconsistency of perception. 

I also expect that i am talking here in this item about what others have called "The Lucifer Principle".

Si says
I kind of get and agree with your basic principle of “spreading out adding quality to new growth” seth.

I think you need a better example than the one lane road however because.
  1. They in fact do put two way streets on one lane roads. One such is road construction where the road is controlled by flag men or automated signals. Another is a one lane bridge on a two way road. Another is a roundabout.
  2. Branching out of a one lane road is more so for efficiency or convenience than it is for quality and growth potential … which the later is what I think is the primary aspect of your thought.
I’ll leave it to you to find a more fitting example. I’m off to other adventures!   

Seth says
well when road crews turn a highway into a single two way channel in opposite directions they are simply using time to simulate  two separate channels null… the example holds for me.

we spread out into multiple channels not just for “efficiency or convenience” but rather that it simply would not work unless we did. 

Given the number of people commuting into downtown Seattle by car today, if this principle was not used, and some stupid civil engineer was stubborn enough to insist on keeping two lane highway betwen Renton and Seattle, then what we are doing now simply would not be working. 

Si says
Does that mean what is being done “now” is the best? Maybe it would be better for many more people to work from home, and receive goods and services via efficient delivery from Amazon Drones, and then even a one lane road would suffice for casual creative exploration in one’s spare time.  Roads, me still thinks, are not good examples.

Seth says
well  the principle does no judge or imply any such judgement at all. 

we could,  however.  the most usual of course would be,  “grow or die”  null

Si says
Well I am just saying the example would be better by picking something that naturally grows and gets better in the growing … I don’t think roads are that example. Sometimes they do, sometimes they can diminish and get better … the size roads need to be is only a function of the people who feel it necessary to travel. Yet travel is not an intrinsically expanding thing … more a function of current social values. Roads would be a good example for things that fluctuate.

Seth says
well certainly we can  look for a better exemplar, even thought this is one such instance of it happening.   the most dramatic exemplars can be found in  natural evolution … every single instance of it happening.  



← one of my favorites it cell division as an embryo grows.

but i wanted an expmple that was not specifically biological.  This principle is not limited to life … it happens in what we might consider not living things as well.

thing is i am not so very sure that the concept of “better” should necessarily even be associated.  to me it is more of a precedence thingey … “grow or die” … though in the lofty view when contemplating evolution,  every shade in that spectrum exists.   none the less, that is our judgement, and not the spirit itself which exists quite apart from our judgements of it.

Si says

Seth says

Note the connection between #SpreadingOut and #Freedom … the former creates the latter. 

both, me thinks, are characteristics of the #LuciferPrinciple 

seth

I do not know of a #CounterArgument .

Mark de LA says
Aligns with GW’s tai shu commentary on P.2621 :

P.2621 #22,1 83-1-2-12-11-14    (WED 33.67 years ago)
" ... Pristine Realities evolve to Symbols; Logic Language, Logos emanates from the Father, not from Nothing except as it seems, of Tertulian pee; thus "The Heart girt with a Serpent" has parallels in Ontogeny & Phylogeny.  If you want to dunk your doughnut, go ahead & dunk it!  "it is a lie, this folly against self" - Awareness, Attention is the function of the Ego;  Brightness, Brilliance, Luminosity which is measured by Photons increase with Development.
(2462) CONSCIOUSNESS is awareness of the part which self takes in production of a judgment either as cause or effect - cause when I act on another, effect when I act on myself, when my hand touches my head, e.g., "I am a cause - active consciousness;  passive consciousness - I am an effect".  Believe a cause exists without an effect or vice versa if you like to be mystifyied.  The categories of Reality are: number, space, motion, time & judgment;  if it be a thing it must have unity, it must be one, or it does not exist. Also it must have extension, speed, persistence & consciousness;  these cats or essentials are independent but concomitant; the thing is component essentials; there is no "ding an sich".  From here we can go to the subject of "Electricity" & what happens to make it positive or negative, the yang & the yin!"

 

I can summarize the above:  for ( any being the component essentials are also beings –→ ∞ (repeat) ) . 
The idea encompasses null maybe – focus ∬(context (context – distinction) – distinction (context – distinction)) 
to any level. 

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