Some Werner Erhard Technology via Language


Language into Being
...
TRY THIS short video for more context ==>> (****) <<==

Tags

  1. language
  2. context

Comments


Seth says
choy 2014-08-10 09:02:23 17612
seth 2014-08-10 08:40:15 17612
i agree ... especially about context. 

But I'm not so very sure about saying, "I have the power of my word in my own universe".   That is perhaps true for some interpertations ... from others, not so very.    I cannot just say something and make it actual even in my own universe.  That has not been my experience, and that is not even the way i would want it to be.  Even as a promise, "I say this now, so I will make it actual in the future",  for me would tell a lie.  The sense, the interpertation, of that thought that works for me is that, "I speak truth in my universe", or "I make my words have the power of truth in my own universe" ... and yes, then there is power in my word.   Hopefully then, others can trust me also.
Yes in W.E.'s statement you have created the bolded in your Universe. As a clue, he has not said that you can stand on a mountain top and declare "I can fly" & having no airplane or other device actually fly off the mountain top.
Richard Bandler had another shortcut to grasping the idea here. He would take someone who because of hypnosis or other kind of belief thought he could walk through walls and let him test it out by ramming his head into the wall.


i have no trouble with any of that ... though i don't understand your "".  

certainly that i don't like to promise (making my word in one context command my deed in another context) is just something that i have "created in my universe" .  

... just like that you prefer people (especially politicians) to say what the will do, and then do exactly that, is something that you have created in yours. 

Mark de LA says
seth 2014-08-10 10:11:09 17612
choy 2014-08-10 09:20:08 17612
Maybe also go back and grok CONTEXT - how something gets held within existence. (not outside it!)


well when i think or talk to people, the context of my thought or words is always the signs of the metaworld that i have myself or share with other people.  that does seem to me to be the nature of thinking and talking ... i am not sure how that could ever change.  but hey, please demonstrate how it could be otherwise if you know of a way.  perhaps you are talking about thinking within the things themselves and being certain that the signs one uses to communicate such are bound the same way in others in the audience ... i don't know ... but i sure think that is a good direction.

experiencing and/or doing things is quite different ... there the context is held within existence and not outside of it in the metaworld of indirect signs like in the case with just talking or thinking.  that is one of the very reasons that i am always pointing at putting deed on the pinnacle of the tangle.
Whether you hold that you can or you can't you are right no matter how you explain it to yourself with metabull.  Some really nice abstract metabull is here.
the laugh above somewhere was just the way Richard Bandler went about teaching the gullible believer that he couldn't go through walls or abused him out of his belief.


Seth says
source: mark
Yeah, mostly because that would be off topic I I don't yet have the feeling that you have grasped the power of what Erhard is saying. d'A 's brand of LOA seems to say the same thing as far as it goes; which is personal universes are all there are. Erhard is saying that you can create contexts for others to live into.  His prime example was JFK saying that we must be first on the Moon.  Quite a difference between JFK & our current leaders.

Well i don't think that "personal universes are all there are" ... there are also the universes which we create by the intersections of our agreements.  Those are the universes in which we live together.  That is the life that we share. 

Yes, certainly that is what JFK did. 

Mark de LA says
seth 2014-08-10 12:33:27 17612
MR 2014-08-10 12:15:02 17612
seth 2014-08-10 09:49:50 17612

-snip-
... just like that you prefer people (especially politicians) to say what the will do, and then do exactly that, is something that you have created in yours. 
I may have a preference & hold saying what I do & doing what I say as prime evidence of integrity, but I have not created it as a context ye for others. I would mostly have to be a politician to do so & exhibit it by example & be successful at it. OTOH, maybe I can create such as a context that voters would require of their candidates .... who knows. But none of that is just like what you are talking about or WE is.


well yes i like that your integrity creates a context only for yourself (if that is what you mean) ... and, er strangely enough, my honesty creates a context only for myself.  perhaps that is what we are saying here, huh?

i suppose that we could delve into the distinction between your integrity and my honesty ... if you want ... but we don't really need to ... do we?
Yeah, mostly because that would be off topic I I don't yet have the feeling that you have grasped the power of what Erhard is saying. d'A 's brand of LOA seems to say the same thing as far as it goes; which is personal universes are all there are. Erhard is saying that you can create contexts for others to live into.  His prime example was JFK saying that we must be first on the Moon.  Quite a difference between JFK & our current leaders. Please watch the whole thing.



Mark de LA says
seth 2014-08-10 12:58:38 17612
MR 2014-08-10 12:15:55 17612
seth 2014-08-10 12:14:23 17612
Well, actually i take as self evident that ...
source: your "meatblll" 

The Principle of Blind Variation

At the most fundamental level variation processes "do not know" which of the variants they produce will turn out be be selected
... but i have no idea how it relates to this context.

It is abstract metabull.

hmmm ... sounds to me that you are degrading the principle.  Obviously our understanding of the principle must needs be a generality that however true just gets represented in our mind ... that certainly does make the representation abstract.  That said i think we can find a vast number of specific instances where the principle works in the world.  Though certainly there will be many specific cases where a being can impose its peculiar variation on the world at large.   But I have no idea why you think it is like a meatball. 
Llanguage pointing to itself meta ... meta ... losing reality & piling up words. How does what he say help anything real? Not in my life.


Mark de LA says
seth 2014-08-10 13:16:53 17612
MR 2014-08-10 13:01:06 17612
seth 2014-08-10 12:58:38 17612
MR 2014-08-10 12:15:55 17612
seth 2014-08-10 12:14:23 17612
Well, actually i take as self evident that ...
source: your "meatblll" 

The Principle of Blind Variation

At the most fundamental level variation processes "do not know" which of the variants they produce will turn out be be selected
... but i have no idea how it relates to this context.

It is abstract metabull.

hmmm ... sounds to me that you are degrading the principle.  Obviously our understanding of the principle must needs be a generality that however true just gets represented in our mind ... that certainly does make the representation abstract.  That said i think we can find a vast number of specific instances where the principle works in the world.  Though certainly there will be many specific cases where a being can impose its peculiar variation on the world at large.   But I have no idea why you think it is like a meatball. 
Llanguage pointing to itself meta ... meta ... losing reality & piling up words. How does what he say help anything real? Not in my life.


Mark, that is the nature of all thought and all communication in language.  We humans fairly obviously need those faculties to express our humanity.
NOPE! Language just pointing to abstractions pointing to language pointing to language pointing to language is metabullshit <-my definition.


Mark de LA says
I think one thing that confuses you is the integrity thing versus the context thing. WE's ideas on integrity & what he means by maintaining integrity is here & a bunch of other already mentioned in s integrity .  The JFK speech referenced above is the best example of creating a context to going to the Moon. 


Mark de LA says
A clue that you are speaking metabull or listening to it from others or in your head is that you can't make pictures of it (flowcharts don't count) or hear sounds - nothing real except the feeling that maybe you think you understand something is likely to occur. From one of integrity linke above



Einaian says
seth 2014-08-13 11:30:06 17612
Einaian 2014-08-13 10:33:48 17612
seth 2014-08-11 11:40:18 17612
hmmm ....

do i breath out,

or do i breath in ?

Come on now, it has to be one or the other! 
... or you are dead or you are holding your breath ...
PML

yeah right, of course.

Point being that in life we do not just act OR react ... we act AND react ... not usually at the same time.  Sometimes we are sensitive and responsible to others ... and other times we create it ourselves.   We breath out and we breath in.  We are a cause in our life, and sometimes others cause flows through us.  It is not a binary thing ... it is an edge upon which we balance.  And everybody is not doing the same balance at the same time. 

Werner and d'A and You are expressing and emphasizing the one side of that.  I am expressing and emphasizing the other.  But both ways or attitudes exist.  I refuse to see only one of them.

So what? ... The other side of profound, eh?


Einaian says
seth 2014-08-13 12:09:46 17612
Einaian 2014-08-13 11:59:50 17612
Sometimes & sometimes not - it is a matter of whether I am agreeable or disagreeable or the time of day or maybe something yet latent & unexpressed ....


i did not ask in general ... i am asking whether you agree on that particular paragraph ... just for clarity i will re quote it below ...

source: me above
Point being that in life we do not just act OR react ... we act AND react ... not usually at the same time.  Sometimes we are sensitive and responsible to others ... and other times we create it ourselves.   We breath out and we breath in.  We are a cause in our life, and sometimes others cause flows through us.  It is not a binary thing ... it is an edge upon which we balance.  And everybody is not doing the same balance at the same time. 

Werner and d'A and You are expressing and emphasizing the one side of that.  I am expressing and emphasizing the other.  But both ways or attitudes exist.  I refuse to see only one of them.

So do you agree with that?
You seem to be a bully - trying to brow beat me into submission with your whatever - mostly graffiti on my item here via repeated demands for the answer you want.  I will say NO because I have a better view of it here (it is not as simplistic as you are & you are representing the nature of context as above in the body of the item as just simplistic if not inane):
(circa 2006 - item 3976)



Einaian says
seth 2014-08-13 11:56:59 17612
Einaian 2014-08-13 11:50:31 17612
seth 2014-08-13 11:46:49 17612
Einaian 2014-08-13 11:38:17 17612
seth 2014-08-13 11:30:06 17612
Einaian 2014-08-13 10:33:48 17612
seth 2014-08-11 11:40:18 17612
hmmm ....

do i breath out,

or do i breath in ?

Come on now, it has to be one or the other! 
... or you are dead or you are holding your breath ...
PML

yeah right, of course.

Point being that in life we do not just act OR react ... we act AND react ... not usually at the same time.  Sometimes we are sensitive and responsible to others ... and other times we create it ourselves.   We breath out and we breath in.  We are a cause in our life, and sometimes others cause flows through us.  It is not a binary thing ... it is an edge upon which we balance.  And everybody is not doing the same balance at the same time. 

Werner and d'A and You are expressing and emphasizing the one side of that.  I am expressing and emphasizing the other.  But both ways or attitudes exist.  I refuse to see only one of them.

So what? ... The other side of profound, eh?


So do you agree?

I have no idea what your other question is asking or saying.
Yeah we are well matched. I have no idea what your Point was either.  You missed the profound & went for the mundane & obvious.


huh?  I essentially asked you what this "other side of profound, eh?" meant, because honestly Mark i cannot imagine what you were saying there.

And you still have not told me whether you agree or not ... no matter of how mundane the thought. 

So, do you agree?
Sometimes & sometimes not - it is a matter of whether I am agreeable or disagreeable or the time of day or maybe something yet latent & unexpressed ....


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