transcendence (2014) - imdb



As movies go these days, well worth a watch.

Tags

  1. transcendence
  2. movies
  3. ai
  4. seths conjecture
  5. self awareness

Comments


Seth says
Einaian 2014-08-24 07:23:25 17680
Somewhere I recommended this before & you rejected it. It does have its moments. 

yeah i looked for your recommendation here and could not find it.  but i did not reject your recommendation, that simply does not sound like something i would have done, and in fact put it on my Netflix list in response to your post.

I rather liked the movie as it dealt with interesting aspects of AI.  The nanotechnology was impressive indeed.  The implication that robust AI (they call it strong AI) would allow one to upload their personaity to the computer, me thinks is sheer fiction ... not based upon science or mathematics.  As you may realize, i think robust AI will happen quite differently.  And i am not so very sure i believe in a AI Singularity.

I didn't like the ending ... but i guess they had to make up something to end it.

Seth says
Einaian 2014-08-24 07:52:37 17680
I don't think human consciousness will ever emanate from an electronic neural network; maybe simulated behavior will .


forget the electronic part of that thought ... me thinks it is as irrelevant as the TCPIP protocol is to this communication from me to you.  ask rather whether consciousness will ever emanate (i prefer the word emerge) from a network of humans.  then perhaps flash that i already has .

Seth says
Einaian 2014-08-24 08:06:25 17680
You must be defining or have a different distinction for consciousness than I.

yep.

Seth says
Einaian 2014-08-24 10:00:30 17680
Again after all this pile of words I can't prove YOU are self aware.


well to start off with, the word "proof" should only be applied to analytic things like mathematics, not synthetic things like awareness and consciousness.  see the Analytic/Synthetic Distinction.  i know that is a bit intellectual but sometimes the heritage of though in these matters is well worth consulting.  So we cannot be talking of proof ... only of convincing your mind one way or other in regard to the matter at hand. 

Seth says
Einaian 2014-08-24 09:48:21 17680
seth 2014-08-24 09:37:31 17680
Einaian 2014-08-24 09:22:09 17680
seth 2014-08-24 09:12:00 17680
Einaian 2014-08-24 09:09:53 17680
seth 2014-08-24 09:06:19 17680
Einaian 2014-08-24 09:02:10 17680
Funny thingy is I can't even prove YOU are self-aware!
pml
er, because just like in the movie, me thinks you are looking for in the wrong direction.
Yeah, proof still missing.  I could be corresponding with an alien robot from the future.


Why not do some tests for the actual relationship itself and see if it is convincing?
self-aware is not a relationship except the tautology of self with self.


youre presumption excludes what what you are testing for.   instead, entertain the conjecture that being self aware is a three way relationship between self and self and not-self.   
nah you are assuming your conclusion -OR- jibberish.
Venn0001.svg

mark, no, that is exactly what you were doing ... you were assuming what implied your conclusion ... and that is what i just called to your attention.   now you accuse me of doing it instead.   are you perhaps mirroring? seeing your own behavior outside of yourself?

Seth says
Einaian 2014-08-24 08:19:42 17680
seth 2014-08-24 08:07:47 17680
Einaian 2014-08-24 08:06:25 17680
You must be defining or have a different distinction for consciousness than I.

yep.
Networks are networks are networks .... wonderful thingies. Consciousness is something else.
now you might want to make an analogy or metaphor or allegory out of how you hold networks, but consciousness is distinct & otherwise.


you might bear in mind that i did not say that "consciousness was the network".  yet the only way i can interpret your comment is to refute that presumption.

Seth says
remember the question that was asked several times in Transcendence ... and i paraphrase ... "Can you prove it is self aware?" ... and the response was, "Can you prove that you are self aware?".

Now ask, how a doctor proves that a patient is conscious?  ... and think about the Turing test. 

I think when I feel consciousness myself that  is only a small part of it, the rest of it is in the relationships i am having with others .... sans the latter, the former would not even exist. 

Seth says
Einaian 2014-08-24 08:58:30 17680
seth 2014-08-24 08:47:10 17680
Einaian 2014-08-24 08:34:04 17680
The Turing test is just a test - doesn't prove consciousness or intelligence.
Doctors have a set of rules for proof of life
  • electricity in the brain
  • breathing by self
  • heart beating by self
  • etc.
I don't need to prove that I am self-aware - I just am!


the point being that to prove it's existence, you test for the relationship, not the internal feeling.  and these tests are reliable. 
... must be your point.
What's missing are the distinctions: awareness, self-awareness & consciousness - none of which appear for me to be in your point.


sorry i cannot guess what you mean.  Can you clarify?

Seth says
Einaian 2014-08-24 10:54:08 17680
seth 2014-08-24 10:07:31 17680
Einaian 2014-08-24 10:00:30 17680
Again after all this pile of words I can't prove YOU are self aware.


well to start off with, the word "proof" should only be applied to analytic things like mathematics, not synthetic things like awareness and consciousness.  see the Analytic/Synthetic Distinction.  i know that is a bit intellectual but sometimes the heritage of though in these matters is well worth consulting.  So we cannot be talking of proof ... only of convincing your mind one way or other in regard to the matter at hand. 
Words piled on words proves nothing. It may not even be binary "one way or another" too! Some of our conversations of the dual monologue kind & school yard " no you are doing that no I'm doing that" & complete deframes convince me that I am probably talking to some kind of linguistic machine. I am getting to the point where I don't care to participate in this item any more.
Talk amongst your selfie-aware selves. 
I will be back if something tickles my fancy

If I get a


i normally don't let you end a dialogue that way on my blog ... but this one had a modicum of intelligence and an even a hint of humor ... so BS tolerated.

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