thought

Try to talk about anything of any kind of conscious reality without making distinctions.

Tags

  1. distinctions
  2. sorites
  3. judgement

Comments


Einaian says
Einaian 2014-09-13 12:30:30 17761
seth 2014-09-13 12:02:19 17761
Einaian 2014-09-13 11:37:26 17761
Only meaningless words can be used with out making a distinction & then what is the point.


Each word may make a distinction, yet when combined in a whole though they can direct attention without distinguishing.  An example might be "a red flower and a humming bird sucking on it".  Another might be the "knack of riding a bike".  Oh sure we can analyze those words down into distinctions, but are those distinctions really what the phrases are pointing our attention to?  In the case of the latter it appears to me to be something in my muscles which hairs into my experience and how physics works with the gravity of Earth (and much much more) ... er, hard to describe the essence of that as a mere distinction.  

I don't know Mark ... what do you think?  Are distinctions just in our language ... do they really exist withing the things themselves?   
If by an assemblage of words you point at something you are making a distinction otherwise you are pointing at meaningless stuff in the cosmic ooze - what is the point? In your case it may help to point out that distinctions also apply to ideas, concepts, & stuff of the mind. A distinction is something one creates as one encounters the World.  The hierarchy of distinctions which make communication possible are embedded as language - as context.

The sequence of encounter breaks down the encounter & making of distinctions a bit.

Einaian says
Sometimes words are not made beyond something like ouch! or oh shit! on encountering pain or suprise, & yet these all purpose words point to that piece of experience.

Mark de LA says
What we call experience is what we made distinctions about in our journey in life.


Seth says
well i don't think we can talk about it without making distinctions ... which is kind of my take away point here.  after all talking, and it's private cousin thinking, just make distinctions, that's what they do ... kind of hard to get out of that bind.

that does not mean that we cannot become aware of "any kind of conscious reality" ... we just need to use that part of our minds that does not get caught up with distinguishing.  perhaps that is wholeizeing or unifying thinking ... but even that does not capture the essence of it.   I'm thinking that your poem ...
One
moment

One
nourishing
moment

One
bird

One
flower

so
kewl!
... points into that direction .

Mark de LA says
seth 2014-09-15 08:31:37 17761
all i am saying, however great principles can be, they are mere things of mind ... mere language .... mere representations.   a reason for a deed, but not the deed.   an excuse for an act,  but not its consequences.  being responsible for experience is a real bitch ... apparently not for everybody.
Take the edge off & you might get somewhere.
Until you can act without some shit running through your mind, some story before & after as an excuse for your self then talk to me about the real bitch in your life. Motivation to act is there - some automatic - some pauses for reason, some pauses for the GR, some comes from anger etc. 
Basic psych 101 says you never act without some cause/purpose even if it is only to be purposeless. We went through an hour of arguing this with a PhD from RAND once & nobody could come up with an example to the contrary .

Seth says
choy 2014-09-15 10:20:14 17761
seth 2014-09-15 08:43:51 17761
choy 2014-09-14 00:31:49 17761
What we call experience is what we made distinctions about in our journey in life.


i think you are using the word "distinction" quite differently than am I.   Your distinction seems to be any change in awareness whatsoever.  Mine is only those patterns recognized from what they are not.  In most of my changes, nothing new is distinguished. 

maybe give some examples of things that to you are distinctions and to me are not.   For example, i made coffee this morning, nothing was distinguished.   I don't count turning water and roasted coffee beans into a beverage making a distinction.  Otherwise the word would loose its usefulness ... it would be no more usefule than "thing" which can be anything.
A distinction is what you create when you become conscious of something as what it is at least  what it is for yourself. You may be recognizing it from the past having fully processed it with previous experience as your guide or you may be encountering it for the first time like ideas & new feelings. Whatever process there is may proceed from an object notion of it to a truck coming down the road depending on context which is just another distinction at a higher level such as an object worldbodily feelings etc.
RS & others use the word percept to denote just the sensory consciousness of something - mostly pre-cognition. Without being able to identify something for focus from its surroundings you will have a hard time making a distinction - hence the meaning of the word & the making something distinct.


fine ... so now i know that what you are calling "distinction" is what I and RS and others have been calling "percepts". 

So back to what perhaps was the topic at hand:  I say, "We cannot perceive what makes up a heap of sand."   Something becoming a heap of sand is not an experience.  Nope, it is just something that we can talk about in language.  I'm saying that it is just part of the language itself ... like a comma or a period or a verb agreeing in number with its subject.

Mark de LA says
seth 2014-09-15 08:43:51 17761
choy 2014-09-14 00:31:49 17761
What we call experience is what we made distinctions about in our journey in life.


i think you are using the word "distinction" quite differently than am I.   Your distinction seems to be any change in awareness whatsoever.  Mine is only those patterns recognized from what they are not.  In most of my changes, nothing new is distinguished. 

maybe give some examples of things that to you are distinctions and to me are not.   For example, i made coffee this morning, nothing was distinguished.   I don't count turning water and roasted coffee beans into a beverage making a distinction.  Otherwise the word would loose its usefulness ... it would be no more usefule than "thing" which can be anything.
A distinction is what you create when you become conscious of something as what it is at least  what it is for yourself. You may be recognizing it from the past having fully processed it with previous experience as your guide or you may be encountering it for the first time like ideas & new feelings. Whatever process there is may proceed from an object notion of it to a truck coming down the road depending on context which is just another distinction at a higher level such as an object worldbodily feelings etc.
RS & others use the word percept to denote just the sensory consciousness of something - mostly pre-cognition. Without being able to identify something for focus from its surroundings you will have a hard time making a distinction - hence the meaning of the word & the making something distinct.


Einaian says
seth 2014-09-14 09:20:17 17761
source: mark
You are judging & imputing motives in my writing which are just on your side of the walled garden & not mine.
Well your stated agenda is quite clear indeed:  "Lets reverse the movement to equate all identity groups as equal & valid.  Judge them by their works & fruits in the human community." 

Could you provide some specific examples of your proposed reversal?
If your humanity thingy has any kind of Being more than just an aggregate of Earthling Bipeds, it has some principles for its membership-guiding being.  I choose the Golden Rule as the one that most represents it at the deepest level. The Golden Rule already exists as a distinction.  17759 expands that. As evolution continues I choose to go with that branch or fork in the road where separation may take place which subscribes to the Golden Rule.  Results may vary for others.


Einaian says
seth 2014-09-14 09:05:16 17761
Einaian 2014-09-14 08:56:14 17761
seth 2014-09-14 08:44:55 17761
Einaian 2014-09-14 08:30:34 17761
seth 2014-09-14 08:11:25 17761
choy 2014-09-14 07:46:35 17761
Einaian 2014-09-13 12:57:25 17761
Not all points of view are equal:


Lets reverse the movement to equate all identity groups as equal & valid.  Judge them by their works & fruits in the human community.

how about we let everybody decide the values and fruits of their own groups.  how about we don't interfere with others freedom. 
OK - so lets be afraid to judge by any standard and elect a group of junkies to the SCOTUS? .. maybe a group of embezzlers to Congress (sorry may have gotten to close to reality) & a group of pedophiles to the local school board, eh?
Supposedly, equality of Liberty, Equality & Fraternity is not the same thingy as equal outcomes in all domains & aspects of life, eh?


apparently you missed the part about "decide the values and fruits of their own groups". 
Nope! .. & ..
I can extend it to include the new meme "Judgement Free Anarchy" or lack of judgement generation as well.


well creating "judgement free anarchy" is not the same thing as "deciding our own values and fruits" ... notwithstanding that you are trying to equate them.   in my view, freedom is good ... er even the freedom of that which is not me.   the opposite of that is imposing my values on others by dint of my power or cunning.  you know, kind of like ISIS is doing now.
Yep, you are lost. You are judging & imputing motives in my writing which are just on your side of the walled garden & not mine.


Eaian says
seth 2014-09-15 10:53:43 17761
choy 2014-09-15 10:28:58 17761
seth 2014-09-15 08:31:37 17761
all i am saying, however great principles can be, they are mere things of mind ... mere language .... mere representations.   a reason for a deed, but not the deed.   an excuse for an act,  but not its consequences.  being responsible for experience is a real bitch ... apparently not for everybody.
Take the edge off & you might get somewhere.
Until you can act without some shit running through your mind, some story before & after as an excuse for your self then talk to me about the real bitch in your life. Motivation to act is there - some automatic - some pauses for reason, some pauses for the GR, some comes from anger etc. 
Basic psych 101 says you never act without some cause/purpose even if it is only to be purposeless. We went through an hour of arguing this with a PhD from RAND once & nobody could come up with an example to the contrary .

well me thinks that whatever principles i hobble together in my mind and even express in language will not be what shows up when i actually do the deed.  your experience may well be quite different.  but nevertheless you may want to watch what does show up right before you actually do something ... maybe something not so very easy.  and then also what shows up afterward when you don't do the deed.
& how will doing what I already do going to surprise me?  Do you ever work from principles - some internal/external guidance?
Do you just act without guidance & integrity to something & then spin an explanation to yourself & others about it ; like make up a story as you go along? How do you know you exist if all you do is act & react for no predetermined purpose?


Eaniea says
seth 2014-09-14 10:30:08 17761
Einaian 2014-09-14 09:30:14 17761
seth 2014-09-14 09:20:17 17761
source: mark
You are judging & imputing motives in my writing which are just on your side of the walled garden & not mine.
Well your stated agenda is quite clear indeed:  "Lets reverse the movement to equate all identity groups as equal & valid.  Judge them by their works & fruits in the human community." 

Could you provide some specific examples of your proposed reversal?
If your humanity thingy has any kind of Being more than just an aggregate of Earthling Bipeds, it has some principles for its membership-guiding being.  I choose the Golden Rule as the one that most represents it at the deepest level. The Golden Rule already exists as a distinction.  17759 expands that. As evolution continues I choose to go with that branch or fork in the road where separation may take place which subscribes to the Golden Rule.  Results may vary for others.


Well most things called "principles" that i have encountered were mere representations in the metaworld mind ... rather than actual beings.  They are not experienced. 

But super kewl ... a real experience of the being of these principles is certainly what i am after here.  Every once in a while i experience a glimpse of it ... give me more ... give me more.
Yeah ... I don't call the bolded stuff anything at all except munge.  The Golden Rule is at least a principle if not one of the primary Being for human beings.
When people are confused about what a word is I seek out it's origins & the language authority of something like a thesaurus or dictionary .  Both sources below refer to something original or beginning. What are you talking about when you use the word if not these.


Eaian says
Seth, I know what a distinction is!  I need no help with that; mungefulness notwithstanding.

Eaian says
seth 2014-09-15 11:33:56 17761
Eaian 2014-09-15 11:21:26 17761
Eaian 2014-09-15 11:19:45 17761
2014-09-15 11:16:03 17761
Nope! not percepts. Percepts are just the sensory interruption of local consciousness that there is something. Distinctions are essentially you giving the percept a name, identity or what it is for yourself.  Try harder to read what I wrote.

i.e. there is a distinction between a percept & a distinction.


Well yes, i certainly do find a difference between what I call a "distinction" and what I call a "preception". I do believe i have already expressed what i find it to be.

Our problem here is that whatever you say about what you call "distinctions" is also what people say about what they call "perceptions".  

You could maybe clear it up by just telling me what difference you find between a distinction and a perception. 
Try not rewording what I write .  I am talking about a percept ... sensory input with nothing attached to it yet.



Eaian says
Eaian 2014-09-15 11:19:45 17761
2014-09-15 11:16:03 17761
Nope! not percepts. Percepts are just the sensory interruption of local consciousness that there is something. Distinctions are essentially you giving the percept a name, identity or what it is for yourself.  Try harder to read what I wrote.

i.e. there is a distinction between a percept & a distinction.


Seth says
Eaian 2014-09-15 11:21:26 17761
Eaian 2014-09-15 11:19:45 17761
2014-09-15 11:16:03 17761
Nope! not percepts. Percepts are just the sensory interruption of local consciousness that there is something. Distinctions are essentially you giving the percept a name, identity or what it is for yourself.  Try harder to read what I wrote.

i.e. there is a distinction between a percept & a distinction.


Well yes, i certainly do find a difference between what I call a "distinction" and what I call a "preception". I do believe i have already expressed what i find it to be.

Our problem here is that whatever you say about what you call "distinctions" is also what people say about what they call "perceptions".  

You could maybe clear it up by just telling me what difference you find between a distinction and a perception. 

Eaian says
a heap of sand is a conceptual distinction.  I am sure you could walk along the beach & find yourself a physical reality to which you could attach the words & say "that is a heap of sand".


Eaian says
The word percept is not often used these days. It is munged with perception which is both a noun & a verb of some sort. Just look about you in your sensory fields & rather than cognize stuff just notice the cosmic ooze of impressions & keep recognition at bay. It is like the first step in not knowing. I got it ~ 19 years old when I first read the book "Theory of Knowledge" by RS. It is not really occult but more philosophy.


Seth says
Eaian 2014-09-15 11:37:53 17761
seth 2014-09-15 11:33:56 17761
Eaian 2014-09-15 11:21:26 17761
Eaian 2014-09-15 11:19:45 17761
2014-09-15 11:16:03 17761
Nope! not percepts. Percepts are just the sensory interruption of local consciousness that there is something. Distinctions are essentially you giving the percept a name, identity or what it is for yourself.  Try harder to read what I wrote.

i.e. there is a distinction between a percept & a distinction.


Well yes, i certainly do find a difference between what I call a "distinction" and what I call a "preception". I do believe i have already expressed what i find it to be.

Our problem here is that whatever you say about what you call "distinctions" is also what people say about what they call "perceptions".  

You could maybe clear it up by just telling me what difference you find between a distinction and a perception. 
Try not rewording what I write .  I am talking about a percept ... sensory input with nothing attached to it yet.



hmmm ... ok ... what are you saying about a sensory input with nothing attached ?

Incidentally that unattached sensory input is not something that we are aware of ... when it shows up in our awareness, then it is called a "precept".   No?

All i am saying is that something becoming a heap of sand is never a precept.  That heapness property is not something that gets attached to a sensory input.

Eaian says
seth 2014-09-15 12:20:05 17761
Eaian 2014-09-15 12:01:04 17761
a heap of sand is a conceptual distinction. 



Yep,  a heap is a conception ...  a thing deep in mind ... even deeper than what we call a perception. 

source: mark
I am sure you could walk along the beach & find yourself a physical reality to which you could attach the words & say "that is a heap of sand".
... well good point And that attachment would be exclusively in my mind.
so what? no need to reword what I bolded.
Making distinctions is what I said previously what your "life" experience is.

Seth says
Eaian 2014-09-15 12:46:47 17761
seth 2014-09-15 12:41:09 17761
Eaian 2014-09-15 12:09:18 17761
The word percept is not often used these days. It is munged with perception which is both a noun & a verb of some sort. Just look about you in your sensory fields & rather than cognize stuff just notice the cosmic ooze of impressions & keep recognition at bay. It is like the first step in not knowing. I got it ~ 19 years old when I first read the book "Theory of Knowledge" by RS. It is not really occult but more philosophy.


well i can almost see without recognizing, but i'm much better at hearing without listening ... i'm always embarrassed when Denise tells me, hey this or that person already said that ...  she heard it, i must have heard it too, but it was not perceived (or even conceived) ... my mind apparently being elsewhere and i missed it.

but no, i do not get the zen connection to a step to "not knowing", nor do i remember anything in Theory of Knowledge that talks about this as a step to anything.  To me it is just an awareness that there is this long channel between my aware mind and the outside world ... things get lost or created at any stage.  Sorry, not getting any inspiration from that awareness.  To me it's just the well known predicament in which i find myself  ... the way i am be-ing ... no biggie, sorry ... and nothing for me to write home about. 

But i would appreciate anything that you can entice to  show in that context over here ... except, of course, your notion that i am a mungie ... or that i am not studying your texts ... sorry have seen enough of that show up here already. 
Yeah - I am not uncomfortable nor unhappy that you are missing something or maybe the voice inside talks too much & doesn't listen or something else like you have it all.  I am complete with discussing this subject with you without a complete resolution at this time. I am not missing anything & don't need extra help on the subject.
...

... nor would i expect that you would .

So apparently to you, it is just something that i am missing, that you have,  and will not help me get.   Hmmm ... i say look at the thing for what it is in and of itself ... that part of this transaction which actually is experienced.

Eaian says
seth 2014-09-15 12:41:09 17761
Eaian 2014-09-15 12:09:18 17761
The word percept is not often used these days. It is munged with perception which is both a noun & a verb of some sort. Just look about you in your sensory fields & rather than cognize stuff just notice the cosmic ooze of impressions & keep recognition at bay. It is like the first step in not knowing. I got it ~ 19 years old when I first read the book "Theory of Knowledge" by RS. It is not really occult but more philosophy.


well i can almost see without recognizing, but i'm much better at hearing without listening ... i'm always embarrassed when Denise tells me, hey this or that person already said that ...  she heard it, i must have heard it too, but it was not perceived (or even conceived) ... my mind apparently being elsewhere and i missed it.

but no, i do not get the zen connection to a step to "not knowing", nor do i remember anything in Theory of Knowledge that talks about this as a step to anything.  To me it is just an awareness that there is this long channel between my aware mind and the outside world ... things get lost or created at any stage.  Sorry, not getting any inspiration from that awareness.  To me it's just the well known predicament in which i find myself  ... the way i am be-ing ... no biggie, sorry ... and nothing for me to write home about. 

But i would appreciate anything that you can entice to  show in that context over here ... except, of course, your notion that i am a mungie ... or that i am not studying your texts ... sorry have seen enough of that show up here already. 
Yeah - I am not uncomfortable nor unhappy that you are missing something or maybe the voice inside talks too much & doesn't listen or something else like you have it all.  I am complete with discussing this subject with you without a complete resolution at this time. I am not missing anything & don't need extra help on the subject.
...

Eaian says
seth 2014-09-15 13:10:25 17761
Eaian 2014-09-15 12:36:50 17761
seth 2014-09-15 12:20:05 17761
Eaian 2014-09-15 12:01:04 17761
a heap of sand is a conceptual distinction. 



Yep,  a heap is a conception ...  a thing deep in mind ... even deeper than what we call a perception. 

source: mark
I am sure you could walk along the beach & find yourself a physical reality to which you could attach the words & say "that is a heap of sand".
... well good point And that attachment would be exclusively in my mind.
so what? no need to reword what I bolded.
Making distinctions is what I said previously what your "life" experience is.

hmmm ... seems to me that i am saying that making distinctions is not life experience ... but rather just mental experience.   But when you shout that at somebody else with a pointed attitude, well then that would be a life experience, for both of you. 

So i am not just rewording what you are saying, i am disagreeing with it. 
Reword all you want.  Make up stories about what it means. KEWL I am still complete with what I contributed & how things stand right NOW as they are!
....

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