What consequences ...

can actually be copied from one setting to another setting?

Or in the domain of mental events, one could ask what meaning thought in one context can be used in another context?

Or in the domain of human communication, one could ask how does something said by one person mean the same to a person who hears it?

---------

Anyway a comparison is being made here between copying consequences from one setting to another, to copying context from one mind to another. 

I give the example of following a recipe and i call that "copying consequences".  Many many examples can be found.  We can say that any time a wheel is used to allow for ease of rolling, then the consequence of a circle is being copied into a new setting ... a square copied into that setting would not work.   In general when a design principle is successfully deployed, we can say that its consequence has been copied into a new setting. 


When we successfully communicate, one mind to another, we can say that meaning is copied from one context to another.  Now like a design principle may (or may not) fit with a new setting, so too a meaning may (or may not) fit in a context within the new mind.

Tags

  1. meaning
  2. consequences
  3. context
  4. mind
  5. specificity
  6. communication
  7. metaphor
  8. simile
  9. analogy
  10. tzu
  11. propaganda of the deed
  12. ends justifies means
  13. item 17817

Comments


Mark de LA says
seth 2014-10-05 15:31:25 17817
choy 2014-10-05 13:14:52 17817
Look at Ferguson Missouri if you think that meaning can't be passed around.  I suggest that 17819 applies quite well.  The Nazis & ISIL are prime examples also.


i think meaning can be passed around ... it's just not easy ... and takes focus and attention from both ends.  it's like taking a part out of a very complex system that was designed just for itself, and trying to install that part in another similarly complex system ... er, these are not interchangeable parts.  then too most of what can be called meaning is in the emotion the thingey evokes ... hard to evoke that same emotion in a foreign system. 
Ron Paul. Hard or Easy who knows? Results may vary with the Ego consciousness of the intended audience.  If it is universal human it might be hard.  If it is racial or national it is a lot easier.  Please read Propaganda of the Deed  previously referenced.


Seth says
choy 2014-10-05 13:10:53 17817
This is my first aquaintance with the notion Propaganda of the Deed so will study it a bit before insisting that Paul had something else in mind.
this is the link that went sour above.

who is Paul?  anyway i think "propoganda of the deed" was from this context.

Seth says
i think in this context that examining the meme, "Free yourself for the lust of results", might help use get closer to answering some of these questions.

Mark de LA says
Well(2) sequence or order depends upon your numbering system & the rationale for the order, time is an abstraction of change & visa-versa. Also ponder the non sequitur phenomenon which is a product of different rationales of order at least & bad logic most of the time.


Seth says
choy 2014-10-05 10:32:26 17817
On the Meaning of Life.  Consequence implies sequence. Meaning is quite another matter & is an individual or personal kind of thingy.
RS: ... But it is upon force and authority that the present states are founded. The individualist anarchist stands in enmity toward them, because they suppress liberty. He wants nothing but the free, unhindered unfolding of powers. He wants to eliminate force, which oppresses the free unfolding. He knows that at the final moment, when social democracy draws its consequences, the state will have its cannons work. The individualist anarchist knows that the representatives of authority will always reach for measures of force in the end. But he is of the conviction that everything of force suppresses liberty. That is why he battles against the state, which rests upon force " and that is why he battles just as energetically against the “propaganda of the deed,” which no less rests upon measures of force. When a state has a person beheaded or locked up " one can call it what one will " on account of his opinion, that appears abominable to the individualist anarchist.
... etc.
both words have interesting contexts in the eLib.

well yes definitely consequences imply sequence, and time, and change ... which last time i looked are experienced as part of the Cosmos ... notwithstanding any agenda to wish them away.

I remember reading RS's reaction to "propaganda of the deed" some time ago in the context of "May Day Seattle 2012"... and thinking abut it then.    Obviously people and institutions forcing consequences on others restrains individual freedom of which we as individuals want more.  I think the golden rule, and more peculiarly a healthy tolerance and appreciation for otherness, provides the best balance for me.  My thesis in this item is that lifting a consequence from one context to another, from being to being, from mind to mind, and preserving its meaning, is almost (but not quite) impossible.  ... er, hence trying to force it, is not indicated.  That is almost always like forcing a square peg in a round hole.

Seth says
choy 2014-10-05 13:14:52 17817
Look at Ferguson Missouri if you think that meaning can't be passed around.  I suggest that 17819 applies quite well.  The Nazis & ISIL are prime examples also.


i think meaning can be passed around ... it's just not easy ... and takes focus and attention from both ends.  it's like taking a part out of a very complex system that was designed just for itself, and trying to install that part in another similarly complex system ... er, these are not interchangeable parts.  then too most of what can be called meaning is in the emotion the thingey evokes ... hard to evoke that same emotion in a foreign system. 

Mark de LA says
seth 2014-10-05 12:07:51 17817
choy 2014-10-05 10:32:26 17817
On the Meaning of Life.  Consequence implies sequence. Meaning is quite another matter & is an individual or personal kind of thingy.
RS: ... But it is upon force and authority that the present states are founded. The individualist anarchist stands in enmity toward them, because they suppress liberty. He wants nothing but the free, unhindered unfolding of powers. He wants to eliminate force, which oppresses the free unfolding. He knows that at the final moment, when social democracy draws its consequences, the state will have its cannons work. The individualist anarchist knows that the representatives of authority will always reach for measures of force in the end. But he is of the conviction that everything of force suppresses liberty. That is why he battles against the state, which rests upon force " and that is why he battles just as energetically against the “propaganda of the deed,” which no less rests upon measures of force. When a state has a person beheaded or locked up " one can call it what one will " on account of his opinion, that appears abominable to the individualist anarchist.
... etc.
both words have interesting contexts in the eLib.

well yes definitely consequences imply sequence, and time, and change ... which last time i looked are experienced as part of the Cosmos ... notwithstanding any agenda to wish them away.

I remember reading RS's reaction to "propaganda of the deed" some time ago in the context of "May Day Seattle 2012"... and thinking abut it then.    Obviously people and institutions forcing consequences on others restrains individual freedom of which we as individuals want more.  I think the golden rule, and more peculiarly a healthy tolerance and appreciation for otherness, provides the best balance for me.  My thesis in this item is that lifting a consequence from one context to another, from being to being, from mind to mind, and preserving its meaning, is almost (but not quite) impossible.  ... er, hence trying to force it, is not indicated.  That is almost always like forcing a square peg in a round hole.
Apparently there is a charter of compassion anchored up there in Seattle

Seth says
seth 2014-10-15 18:57:00 17846
M 2014-10-15 17:11:21 17846
M 2014-10-15 17:08:16 17846
... & now munging contexts : [munging: item 17817] & 17865
Context & distinction is what makes something a something. Classification may help one navigate up or down a classification tree to abbreviate the search or specification of something, but that is for the convience of the person doing it & doesn't change what something is.


well, you may not have noticed, but 17818 starts off dealing with what you refer to as "what somethig is" because it asks "What consequences can actually be moved (copied) from one event to another event?"  ... "consequences" here standing for "what actual is".  In that case we are not talking about metaworld mental representations at all, but rather what is so even independant of mental observation.  An example is in order ... how about a recipe.  I learn to make gumbo through a process of events ... then i copy those consequences into another making of a gumbo ... therefore i copied consequences from one event to another. 


Whereas 17865 is about how McCarthy is trying to copy context from one logical representation to another and preserve the same truth it had in the original context into the destination context.  It is exclusively mental ... of mind and representation.   It worked out, if you follow that whole AI development that it was quite difficult to do indeed.  They tried it with CyC ... i don't see as being a very successful project, do you?  But incidentally they used pure logic.



Seth says
seth 2014-10-15 18:57:00 17846
M 2014-10-15 17:11:21 17846
M 2014-10-15 17:08:16 17846
... & now munging contexts : [munging: item 17817] & 17865
Context & distinction is what makes something a something. Classification may help one navigate up or down a classification tree to abbreviate the search or specification of something, but that is for the convience of the person doing it & doesn't change what something is.


well, you may not have noticed, but 17817 starts off dealing with what you refer to as "what somethig is" because it asks "What consequences can actually be moved (copied) from one event to another event?"  ... "consequences" here standing for "what actual is".  In that case we are not talking about metaworld mental representations at all, but rather what is so even independant of mental observation.  An example is in order ... how about a recipe.  I learn to make gumbo through a process of events ... then i copy those consequences into another making of a gumbo ... therefore i copied consequences from one event to another. 


Whereas 17865 is about how McCarthy is trying to copy context from one logical representation to another and preserve the same truth it had in the original context into the destination context.  It is exclusively mental ... of mind and representation.   It worked out, if you follow that whole AI development that it was quite difficult to do indeed.  They tried it with CyC ... i don't see as being a very successful project, do you?  But incidentally they used pure logic.



Mark de LA says
seth 2014-10-16 13:30:47 17817
it is interesting to note that emotion is so very tightly bound to specific context.  an artist can express their emotion, yet what you experience will not be a copy of it.  this thought brought to you via 17873.
Many song writers say that what people react to is not the specific content of the lyrics but the delivery of the song & the emotions expressed by the singers. Watch The Voice & American Idol & you will notice that the judges & coaches have all made this point.


Seth says
it is interesting to note that emotion is so very tightly bound to specific context.  an artist can express their emotion, yet what you experience will not be a copy of it.  this thought brought to you via 17873.

Seth says

And to carry this comparison, or manner of speaking, a step further, we can observe that when a gene is reproduced into an offspring, that the consequences of the gene are copied into the next generation.  

.... and so too memes spreading from mind to mind, be they helpful or frivolous or malevolent.

Seth says

Anyway a comparison is being made here between copying consequences from one setting to another, to copying context from one mind to another. 

I give the example of following a recipe and i call that "copying consequences".  Many many examples can be found.  We can say that any time a wheel is used to allow for ease of rolling, then the consequence of a circle is being copied into a new setting ... a square copied into that setting would not work.   In general when a design principle is successfully deployed, we can say that its consequence has been copied into a new setting. 


When we successfully communicate, one mind to another, we can say that meaning is copied from one context to another.  Now like a design principle may (or may not) fit with a new setting, so too a meaning may (or may not) fit in a context within the new mind.

Mark de LA says
Songs that actually work are ones with enough open to interpretation by the listener .. Wake Me Up




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