Metaphors

About: cute similation of a bubble chamber

I was artistically impressed by watching a cloud chamber at the San Francisco Exploratorium detect cosmic rays in the '70s. The view in the chamber was like a wave beginning to crash on a beach only more delicate, but continuous like the ocean. Here is an MIT video of something similar although not as artistic.
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Next is the current frontier of brain science. Lots of interesting links emanate from this web page.
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Something unseen by normal (or any) means leaves a trace in the physical. By analogy or metaphor: does that mean that the physical causes thoughts or the thoughts are elsewhere and cause the physical phenomena? Is it then a multimedia event between worlds?
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Tags

  1. thoughts
  2. metaphors
  3. bubble chambers
  4. cloud chambers
  5. item 17877

Comments


Mark de LA says
seth 2014-10-17 11:15:56 17877
M 2014-10-17 10:39:11 17877
seth 2014-10-17 10:21:56 17877

Well i think the events that happen on a micro scale in our brains as we think, are consequences of our macro interaction with others in the world.  Timing or course is King  ... it being an under statement to say that the sequence of cause and effect is long and convoluted.   In other words the micor events are not causing our thoughts, rather they are a result of what we sense, feel, and do.  I do not, myself, see any evidence of them being an interaction from a different world.
I also don't see viruses & bacterial as the cause of diseases, but the result of what we create from our life bodies or life being etc like moss on the shady side of a tree.

well yes our lives are literally swimming in microbes and chemistry which we allow (or disallow) to express itself in our bodies.  We control that by our habits and life style ... so foreign life will take hold if we let it ... just like moss growing in the dark. 

But RS's notion that cancer is caused by a person not taking charge of their life (or however he said it) is not something that i completely buy.  If i unwittingly take a carcinogen into my body (eg asbestos), then depenent on  my specific constitution, i will get a cancer.  I think the same will go for the ebola virus. 
see below or above (my last) .
I also use this in a way as a segmented diary or sorts.
See also the Biopsychosocial model & google mind-body connection

Mark de LA says
seth 2014-10-17 10:21:56 17877

Well i think the events that happen on a micro scale in our brains as we think, are consequences of our macro interaction with others in the world.  Timing or course is King  ... it being an under statement to say that the sequence of cause and effect is long and convoluted.   In other words the micor events are not causing our thoughts, rather they are a result of what we sense, feel, and do.  I do not, myself, see any evidence of them being an interaction from a different world.
I also don't see viruses & bacterial as the cause of diseases, but the result of what we create from our life bodies or life being etc like moss on the shady side of a tree.
You can enjoy your already-always ontology.  I like mine better.


Mark de LA says
seth 2014-10-17 11:30:02 17877
M 2014-10-17 11:16:19 17877
seth 2014-10-17 10:52:26 17877
source: mark says
You can enjoy your already-always ontology.  I like mine better.

Well of course you do ... you will talk from (and perhaps enjoy) your "already-always ontology" just as i will talk from (and perhaps enjoy) mine. 

We talk to each other here just to see if we can agree on wordings that provide the best fit in both.
... or NOT [see also: item 17823] & maybe think about the birdies.
I am more into thinking out loud & collecting my thoughts & links. I am kinda well past the argumentation as a positive.


well i said nothing about argumentation which usually refers to trying to force one's thought into another person's mind.  or winning a debate.   I am not into that either. 

And, yes, i propose that we talk here to find wording that we can agree fit well in both of our minds. 
Not my goal to convince & persuade (or whatever you want to call it). From the Tai Shu commentaries:

P.2007 71-4-1-5-7-49 Mon. " Agitation, propaganda & political action involved in prevalent pseudo Utopian self-serving P R are not part of our policy; the True Spirit impels from within, forces no one & constrains no one even by persuasion!"




Mark de LA says
seth 2014-10-17 12:33:42 17877
M 2014-10-17 11:47:42 17877
Maybe there is a metaphor to be had with the notion of cloud chambers with our data in chambers in the clouds & the interaction of strange particles.


yeah the metaphor came in loud and clear .

i just don't think thoughts happen by some unseen world interacting directly with our brain like the particles coming into a cloud chamber.

rather i think the thoughts happen caused by the information coming into our senses and the interactions that have with the world. 
yep - samo-samo - point of view noted above .. back there somewhere.  Then again where do memes come from & those soppy epigrams in facebook & the ones that work . Thoughts suddenly appear, not always from something you are sensing at the moment & dredged out faulty memories ... otherwise without new ideas , thoughts & behavior we might as well go home .


Mark de LA says
seth 2014-10-17 10:52:26 17877
source: mark says
You can enjoy your already-always ontology.  I like mine better.

Well of course you do ... you will talk from (and perhaps enjoy) your "already-always ontology" just as i will talk from (and perhaps enjoy) mine. 

We talk to each other here just to see if we can agree on wordings that provide the best fit in both.
... or NOT [see also: item 17823] & maybe think about the birdies.
I am more into thinking out loud & collecting my thoughts & links. I am kinda well past the argumentation as a positive.


Seth says
source: mark
See also the Biopsychosocial model
... ...yeah ...  good stuff


Seth says
M 2014-10-17 11:38:24 17877
seth 2014-10-17 11:30:02 17877
M 2014-10-17 11:16:19 17877
seth 2014-10-17 10:52:26 17877
source: mark says
You can enjoy your already-always ontology.  I like mine better.

Well of course you do ... you will talk from (and perhaps enjoy) your "already-always ontology" just as i will talk from (and perhaps enjoy) mine. 

We talk to each other here just to see if we can agree on wordings that provide the best fit in both.
... or NOT [see also: item 17823] & maybe think about the birdies.
I am more into thinking out loud & collecting my thoughts & links. I am kinda well past the argumentation as a positive.


well i said nothing about argumentation which usually refers to trying to force one's thought into another person's mind.  or winning a debate.   I am not into that either. 

And, yes, i propose that we talk here to find wording that we can agree fit well in both of our minds. 
Not my goal to convince & persuade (or whatever you want to call it). From the Tai Shu commentaries:

P.2007 71-4-1-5-7-49 Mon. " Agitation, propaganda & political action involved in prevalent pseudo Utopian self-serving P R are not part of our policy; the True Spirit impels from within, forces no one & constrains no one even by persuasion!"





So then we agree, our purpose here is not to "convince and persuade" ... we do not talk to each other here to "force one's thought into another person's mind". 

Seth says
source: mark
 Thoughts suddenly appear, not always from something you are sensing at the moment & dredged out faulty memories
Well, "Timing or course is King  ... it being an under statement to say that the sequence of cause and effect is long and convoluted.".   My model, crude as it may be, is water going into a bucket, sloshing around for years and years, and then some of it spilling out occasionally. 
where do memes come from & those soppy epigrams in facebook & the ones that work .... otherwise without new ideas , thoughts & behavior we might as well go home .
... well i'd go home too .   that is why we are continually making new associations and discovering new paradigms and simplifying and sophisticating our ontology and communicating with others doing the same.  the possibilities for new things being virtually limitless.

some people call that "munging", others call it "practical thinking" ... which it is, depends on the specifics of what people actually do.



Mark de LA says
seth 2014-10-17 15:44:19 17877
M 2014-10-17 11:38:24 17877
seth 2014-10-17 11:30:02 17877
M 2014-10-17 11:16:19 17877
seth 2014-10-17 10:52:26 17877
source: mark says
You can enjoy your already-always ontology.  I like mine better.

Well of course you do ... you will talk from (and perhaps enjoy) your "already-always ontology" just as i will talk from (and perhaps enjoy) mine. 

We talk to each other here just to see if we can agree on wordings that provide the best fit in both.
... or NOT [see also: item 17823] & maybe think about the birdies.
I am more into thinking out loud & collecting my thoughts & links. I am kinda well past the argumentation as a positive.


well i said nothing about argumentation which usually refers to trying to force one's thought into another person's mind.  or winning a debate.   I am not into that either. 

And, yes, i propose that we talk here to find wording that we can agree fit well in both of our minds. 
Not my goal to convince & persuade (or whatever you want to call it). From the Tai Shu commentaries:

P.2007 71-4-1-5-7-49 Mon. " Agitation, propaganda & political action involved in prevalent pseudo Utopian self-serving P R are not part of our policy; the True Spirit impels from within, forces no one & constrains no one even by persuasion!"





So then we agree, our purpose here is not to "convince and persuade" ... we do not talk to each other here to "force one's thought into another person's mind". 
Then using your favorite phrase "... say what?" 17823 ... munge gumbo notwithstanding, seems like just stirring the soup ... nothing new here. The rest of P.2007 is True Spirit impelling from within.

Mark de LA says
seth 2014-10-17 15:33:07 17877
source: mark
 Thoughts suddenly appear, not always from something you are sensing at the moment & dredged out faulty memories
Well, "Timing or course is King  ... it being an under statement to say that the sequence of cause and effect is long and convoluted.".   My model, crude as it may be, is water going into a bucket, sloshing around for years and years, and then some of it spilling out occasionally. 
where do memes come from & those soppy epigrams in facebook & the ones that work .... otherwise without new ideas , thoughts & behavior we might as well go home .
... well i'd go home too .   that is why we are continually making new associations and discovering new paradigms and simplifying and sophisticating our ontology and communicating with others doing the same.  the possibilities for new things being virtually limitless.

some people call that "munging", others call it "practical thinking" ... which it is, depends on the specifics of what people actually do.


as the windmill turns .....
reframing my ideas into yours is just as productive for me as your .....

Seth says
choy 2014-10-17 18:09:12 17877
seth 2014-10-17 15:33:07 17877
source: mark
 Thoughts suddenly appear, not always from something you are sensing at the moment & dredged out faulty memories
Well, "Timing or course is King  ... it being an under statement to say that the sequence of cause and effect is long and convoluted.".   My model, crude as it may be, is water going into a bucket, sloshing around for years and years, and then some of it spilling out occasionally. 
where do memes come from & those soppy epigrams in facebook & the ones that work .... otherwise without new ideas , thoughts & behavior we might as well go home .
... well i'd go home too .   that is why we are continually making new associations and discovering new paradigms and simplifying and sophisticating our ontology and communicating with others doing the same.  the possibilities for new things being virtually limitless.

some people call that "munging", others call it "practical thinking" ... which it is, depends on the specifics of what people actually do.


as the windmill turns .....
reframing my ideas into yours is just as productive for me as your .....


well from an AI perspective it's called "lifting context"

who knows, perhaps it is what we water signs do



Mark de LA says
your link to lifting context goes nowhere I want to chase & since my zen ontology holds context as that which determines whether a log in the forest is a chair or a dead tree lifting context means nothing useful.


Mark de LA says
I think you are still stirring the soup.  I am still looking for something that helps my ontology instead of just stirring up the soup:


Seth says
choy 2014-10-17 21:13:24 17877
your link to lifting context goes nowhere I want to chase & since my zen ontology holds context as that which determines whether a log in the forest is a chair or a dead tree lifting context means nothing useful.


well i originally learned about context from studying what McCarthy was doing.   he does define context quite differently than you have above.  but "context" is just a word ... keep your own conceptions about that which determines ... it does not get in the way of "McCarthy's context", and perhaps is just something else.  but i have found McCarthy's conception of context very useful indeed ... and informs my understanding of human communication and not just the logical machines of AI. 

Seth says
choy 2014-10-17 18:04:45 17877
seth 2014-10-17 15:44:19 17877
M 2014-10-17 11:38:24 17877
seth 2014-10-17 11:30:02 17877
M 2014-10-17 11:16:19 17877
seth 2014-10-17 10:52:26 17877
source: mark says
You can enjoy your already-always ontology.  I like mine better.

Well of course you do ... you will talk from (and perhaps enjoy) your "already-always ontology" just as i will talk from (and perhaps enjoy) mine. 

We talk to each other here just to see if we can agree on wordings that provide the best fit in both.
... or NOT [see also: item 17823] & maybe think about the birdies.
I am more into thinking out loud & collecting my thoughts & links. I am kinda well past the argumentation as a positive.


well i said nothing about argumentation which usually refers to trying to force one's thought into another person's mind.  or winning a debate.   I am not into that either. 

And, yes, i propose that we talk here to find wording that we can agree fit well in both of our minds. 
Not my goal to convince & persuade (or whatever you want to call it). From the Tai Shu commentaries:

P.2007 71-4-1-5-7-49 Mon. " Agitation, propaganda & political action involved in prevalent pseudo Utopian self-serving P R are not part of our policy; the True Spirit impels from within, forces no one & constrains no one even by persuasion!"





So then we agree, our purpose here is not to "convince and persuade" ... we do not talk to each other here to "force one's thought into another person's mind". 
Then using your favorite phrase "... say what?" 17823 ... munge gumbo notwithstanding, seems like just stirring the soup ... nothing new here. The rest of P.2007 is True Spirit impelling from within.

well i had thought it might be obvious ... i said that to propose that we agree not to argue.

it was strange, thought, because i noticed that you in fact were saying the same thing as was I (read the dialogue above) ... strange that you haven't noticed that yet. 

as to "true spirit impelling from within" ... er, well i cannot yet grock how that is related here ... perhaps you will enlighten me.

Mark de LA says
seth 2014-10-17 22:03:25 17877
choy 2014-10-17 21:13:24 17877
your link to lifting context goes nowhere I want to chase & since my zen ontology holds context as that which determines whether a log in the forest is a chair or a dead tree lifting context means nothing useful.


well i originally learned about context from studying what McCarthy was doing.   he does define context quite differently than you have above.  but "context" is just a word ... keep your own conceptions about that which determines ... it does not get in the way of "McCarthy's context", and perhaps is just something else.  but i have found McCarthy's conception of context very useful indeed ... and informs my understanding of human communication and not just the logical machines of AI. 
Kewl! Enjoy the glow.


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