An interesting image ...

About: The Qualia Project

...

i shared this dialogue on G+

Tags

  1. qualia
  2. mind
  3. images
  4. communication
  5. consciousness
  6. agreement
  7. mental transactions
  8. item 17911

Comments


Seth says
choy 2014-10-18 09:00:25 17882
the G+ project is slightly off what I had thought the definition of qualia is. Maybe in Spanish it is somewhat contextually different. Like the apparently infinite video.

yeah i read their description of the project and also don't think it has much of anything to do with qualia ... the picture itself kind of does though.   the spreading network of tree branches foccousing on her mind was what grabbed my attention.

Mark de LA says
seth 2014-10-19 08:49:33 17882

incidentally, back just about qualia:  one of the most interesting (and perhaps telling) characheristics of qualia is that they change.   in other words what something feels like is not always the same.  a blue is not always so very blue, that first cup of coffee in the morning is not always the same as the last, and talking to a honored fried is not necessarialy the same as it was last tuesday.   the difference necessarily being that the specific context changed.
context of you or something outside you ? 
Ego in motion is hard to pin down - GW


Seth says

incidentally, back just about qualia:  one of the most interesting (and perhaps telling) characheristics of qualia is that they change.   in other words what something feels like is not always the same.  a blue is not always so very blue, that first cup of coffee in the morning is not always the same as the last, and talking to a honored fried is not necessarialy the same as it was last tuesday.   the difference necessarily being that the specific context changed.

Mark de LA says
seth 2014-10-19 09:14:38 17882
MR 2014-10-19 09:06:55 17882
seth 2014-10-19 08:49:33 17882

incidentally, back just about qualia:  one of the most interesting (and perhaps telling) characheristics of qualia is that they change.   in other words what something feels like is not always the same.  a blue is not always so very blue, that first cup of coffee in the morning is not always the same as the last, and talking to a honored fried is not necessarialy the same as it was last tuesday.   the difference necessarily being that the specific context changed.
context of you or something outside you ? 
Ego in motion is hard to pin down - GW


i would say that primarilay the same things feel different to me because I have changed ... not the external world.  but the two are in flux between themselves ... so it is impossible to tell in any binary manner.
kinda depends also upon where your focus is when you identify or grasp the qualia of something - the first cup of coffee this morning is not the same as the first cup of coffee yesterday or just any old cup of coffee during some first moment... my memory of this morning's cup of coffee is not the same as the moment wherein I was drinking my first cup of coffee this morning.  so qualia so far is a munge of experience of some kind of moment somerwhere sometime somehow etc. as far as context goes ...


Seth says
MR 2014-10-19 09:06:55 17882
seth 2014-10-19 08:49:33 17882

incidentally, back just about qualia:  one of the most interesting (and perhaps telling) characheristics of qualia is that they change.   in other words what something feels like is not always the same.  a blue is not always so very blue, that first cup of coffee in the morning is not always the same as the last, and talking to a honored fried is not necessarialy the same as it was last tuesday.   the difference necessarily being that the specific context changed.
context of you or something outside you ? 
Ego in motion is hard to pin down - GW


i would say that primarilay the same things feel different to me because I have changed ... not the external world.  but the two are in flux between themselves ... so it is impossible to tell in any binary manner.

Seth says
MR 2014-10-19 09:22:07 17882
seth 2014-10-19 09:14:38 17882
MR 2014-10-19 09:06:55 17882
seth 2014-10-19 08:49:33 17882

incidentally, back just about qualia:  one of the most interesting (and perhaps telling) characheristics of qualia is that they change.   in other words what something feels like is not always the same.  a blue is not always so very blue, that first cup of coffee in the morning is not always the same as the last, and talking to a honored fried is not necessarialy the same as it was last tuesday.   the difference necessarily being that the specific context changed.
context of you or something outside you ? 
Ego in motion is hard to pin down - GW


i would say that primarilay the same things feel different to me because I have changed ... not the external world.  but the two are in flux between themselves ... so it is impossible to tell in any binary manner.
kinda depends also upon where your focus is when you identify or grasp the qualia of something - the first cup of coffee this morning is not the same as the first cup of coffee yesterday or just any old cup of coffee during some first moment... my memory of this morning's cup of coffee is not the same as the moment wherein I was drinking my first cup of coffee this morning.  so qualia so far is a munge of experience of some kind of moment somerwhere sometime somehow etc. as far as context goes ...


yes certainly, focus, expectation, mood, and intention and much more all contribute to the setting of the experience where something ends up feeling in some distinct way.   in that last sentence we could substitute "context" for "setting" without changing the meaning of the sentence ... and similarly we could substitute "qualia" for my phrase "something ends up feeling in some distinct way".   And couldn't we substitute the word "blend" for your word "munge" without changing the meaning of your sentence as well?

i think we got this, no?

Eiamme says
seth 2014-10-20 07:25:42 17882
MR 2014-10-19 09:22:07 17882
seth 2014-10-19 09:14:38 17882
MR 2014-10-19 09:06:55 17882
seth 2014-10-19 08:49:33 17882

incidentally, back just about qualia:  one of the most interesting (and perhaps telling) characheristics of qualia is that they change.   in other words what something feels like is not always the same.  a blue is not always so very blue, that first cup of coffee in the morning is not always the same as the last, and talking to a honored fried is not necessarialy the same as it was last tuesday.   the difference necessarily being that the specific context changed.
context of you or something outside you ? 
Ego in motion is hard to pin down - GW


i would say that primarilay the same things feel different to me because I have changed ... not the external world.  but the two are in flux between themselves ... so it is impossible to tell in any binary manner.
kinda depends also upon where your focus is when you identify or grasp the qualia of something - the first cup of coffee this morning is not the same as the first cup of coffee yesterday or just any old cup of coffee during some first moment... my memory of this morning's cup of coffee is not the same as the moment wherein I was drinking my first cup of coffee this morning.  so qualia so far is a munge of experience of some kind of moment somerwhere sometime somehow etc. as far as context goes ...


yes certainly, focus, expectation, mood, and intention and much more all contribute to the setting of the experience where something ends up feeling in some distinct way.   in that last sentence we could substitute "context" for "setting" without changing the meaning of the sentence ... and similarly we could substitute "qualia" for my phrase "something ends up feeling in some distinct way".   And couldn't we substitute the word "blend" for your word "munge" without changing the meaning of your sentence as well?

i think we got this, no?
Yeah - but the fundamental question is so what? It lacks practical distinction & seems non transferable .

Seth says
Eiamme 2014-10-20 07:29:02 17882
substituting words for what purpose? substituting words obliterates the distinction between words.

well i don't see that.  there is a lot of redundancy between being able to phrase a thing one way or another way.  somtimes one wording clicks inside a mind and somtimes another wording clicks better. 

though, that said, certainly we can choose one word just because of some specific connotation ... where another word might mean substantually the same thing without that connotation.   for example, you almost always use your word "munge" to imply some negative thing .... yet the word "blend", as far as i can tell, means the same thing without that negative connotation.  When i make that kind of substitution, i do it intentionally just exactly to eliminate the negative connotation.

Seth says
Eiamme 2014-10-20 07:56:50 17882
There is one interesting use I might have for the word qualia & that is reference to some experience-consciousness of something before it is clothed in language or words.


Seth says
... or you can look at it just as editing ... improving wording to make it ring truer and truer.   when i read back the thing i have written i almost always find that i can say it better substituting one phrase for another and make it ring truer withing my mind ... and/or my anticipation of how it will ring inside a litener's mind. 

don't you ever do that yourself?

Seth says
source: mark
Yep, the right-game allows the fuzziness of obliterating distinctions & claiming your own result. Anyway none of this is very practical. What is the qualia you enjoy by claiming you are right? What are the submodalities. Is there a glow? Is there a bumpy feeling? Is there the anticipation-qualia of an erection just about to happen?

well for me it is all about communication and a meeting of minds ... especially in these kind of interchanges.  so yes, i will get a great little qualia when we can agree and see a thing the same way.  i actually think that you glory in not giving that to me, even when all propositional disagreement has evaporated.  that is just something that i have learned to live with ... and, to be honest with you, i don't even anticipate it anymore.

Seth says
Eiamme 2014-10-20 08:46:55 17882
seth 2014-10-20 08:43:22 17882
Eiamme 2014-10-20 08:30:44 17882
seth 2014-10-20 08:06:44 17882
source: mark
Yep, the right-game allows the fuzziness of obliterating distinctions & claiming your own result. Anyway none of this is very practical. What is the qualia you enjoy by claiming you are right? What are the submodalities. Is there a glow? Is there a bumpy feeling? Is there the anticipation-qualia of an erection just about to happen?

well for me it is all about communication and a meeting of minds ... especially in these kind of interchanges.  so yes, i will get a great little qualia when we can agree and see a thing the same way.  i actually think that you glory in not giving that to me, even when all propositional disagreement has evaporated.  that is just something that i have learned to live with ... and, to be honest with you, i don't even anticipate it anymore.
... fairly non-responsive to the questions.

huh ... i thought i did answer the essential question you asked.  But, outside of that,  what question specifically do you want me to answer?  Maybe you could try phrasing it differently such that it could elicit an honest response and not just go in the usual RWG loop.

Well of course it is your presumption that my intention is always to claim i am right.  Yet i am telling you that is not the usual intention over here.  Rather it is the intention to reach a meeting of minds.  Incidentally i did tell you the qualia involved ... yes a glow when you tell me that we agree .   Obviously a "bumpy feeling" or an "erection" is not involved, i rather think you knew that.   And, yes i  told you that i no longer anticipate a qualia glow of your agreement.   And then i have no idea what you mean here by "submodalities" ... that must be some context that you have that i do not.

Eiamme says
seth 2014-10-20 08:12:46 17882
Eiamme 2014-10-20 07:56:50 17882
There is one interesting use I might have for the word qualia & that is reference to some experience-consciousness of something before it is clothed in language or words.

It is similar to what PR calls experience when broken down into fundamental parts such as encounter .... or RS calls percept prior to cognition.
The challenge in communication is that such lives separate in separate human beings & then word quibbling happens trying to communicate. Best one can do (so far) is work up word-links & pointers.


Seth says
Eiamme 2014-10-20 08:35:50 17882
seth 2014-10-20 07:54:09 17882
... or you can look at it just as editing ... improving wording to make it ring truer and truer.   when i read back the thing i have written i almost always find that i can say it better substituting one phrase for another and make it ring truer withing my mind ... and/or my anticipation of how it will ring inside a litener's mind. 

don't you ever do that yourself?
works well until you edit my words or visa-versa . 

well i can't edit your words.   but i can tell you what your words mean to me over here.  most of the time i presume that you actually want to know that.

Seth says
Eiamme 2014-10-20 08:30:44 17882
seth 2014-10-20 08:06:44 17882
source: mark
Yep, the right-game allows the fuzziness of obliterating distinctions & claiming your own result. Anyway none of this is very practical. What is the qualia you enjoy by claiming you are right? What are the submodalities. Is there a glow? Is there a bumpy feeling? Is there the anticipation-qualia of an erection just about to happen?

well for me it is all about communication and a meeting of minds ... especially in these kind of interchanges.  so yes, i will get a great little qualia when we can agree and see a thing the same way.  i actually think that you glory in not giving that to me, even when all propositional disagreement has evaporated.  that is just something that i have learned to live with ... and, to be honest with you, i don't even anticipate it anymore.
... fairly non-responsive to the questions.

huh ... i thought i did answer the essential question you asked.  But, outside of that,  what question specifically do you want me to answer?  Maybe you could try phrasing it differently such that it could elicit an honest response and not just go in the usual RWG loop.

Seth says
Eiamme 2014-10-20 08:36:38 17882
Eiamme 2014-10-20 08:35:50 17882
seth 2014-10-20 07:54:09 17882
... or you can look at it just as editing ... improving wording to make it ring truer and truer.   when i read back the thing i have written i almost always find that i can say it better substituting one phrase for another and make it ring truer withing my mind ... and/or my anticipation of how it will ring inside a litener's mind. 

don't you ever do that yourself?
works well until you edit my words or visa-versa . 
In a way that is the sense of language in action - getting the right word.

yes indeed

Seth says
see i am working with something that feels more like this ...

...

thanks Facebook via G+

notice the guy got a qualia

Seth says
Eiamme 2014-10-20 08:45:30 17882
Eiamme 2014-10-20 08:34:36 17882
seth 2014-10-20 08:12:46 17882
Eiamme 2014-10-20 07:56:50 17882
There is one interesting use I might have for the word qualia & that is reference to some experience-consciousness of something before it is clothed in language or words.

It is similar to what PR calls experience when broken down into fundamental parts such as encounter .... or RS calls percept prior to cognition.
The challenge in communication is that such lives separate in separate human beings & then word quibbling happens trying to communicate. Best one can do (so far) is work up word-links & pointers.

Then too the hard problems of consciousness in W has a batch of stuff related to the existence of qualia. One can chase the definition of qualia as well.



well yes .   i think qualia is specifically that part of communication and consciousness which is not transferable from person to person.  it is for (and in) one mind only.  oh sure we can try ... and the more interaction we have the more even the qualia part becomes similar between minds ...especially with art and music ...  but no, it never gets near to  identity.   the propositional content, assuming common purpose, is easier to transact.

Seth says
source: mark
I think you had some kind of qualia watching the animation & grasping it (context) as a representation of your ideas about qualia. OTOH what is so is that it is an animated cartoon of two people passing "baloons" between eahchother about their relationship. 
well yes both of those are adequate descriptions of the event from totally different perspectives.

See this to create your own static one --  a cartoon


Seth says
Eiamme 2014-10-20 14:01:01 17882
seth 2014-10-20 13:54:21 17882
source: mark
I think you had some kind of qualia watching the animation & grasping it (context) as a representation of your ideas about qualia. OTOH what is so is that it is an animated cartoon of two people passing "baloons" between eahchother about their relationship. 
well yes both of those are adequate descriptions of the event from totally different perspectives.

See this to create your own static one --  a cartoon

The only qualia around the cartoon is in your mind & mind about your writing about it. No qualia extant in a cartoon - the cartoon has no mind.


huh ???

there was a qualia in your mind when you said it ... there was a qualia in my mind when i heard it .... the question i asked was what was your purpose in saying it?

but yes of course the cartoon itself has no mind and is not in question here ... surly you did not think that i was quite so confused.

i really do not give a shit why you said it ... but i do get a distinct qualia whevever you avoid answering a direct question honestly ... but think nothing of it ... that would be just my particular qualia just for me alone.

Seth says
source: mark
Well when I did as I did above - I thought you were confused as to where the qualia was - you eat shit & insult. Prepositions are inportant like the qualia is IN what & where otherwise you are just munging around in chaos & vanity.

P.2543 near end GW is talking about the tower of Babel.

Well you knew i was not confused about qualia being IN and PECULAIR TO a specific mind ... having said as much in this item itself.  Or at least you should not have suspected that i was so confused.

I did not intend to insult you ... but i cannot talk at this depth by mincing words ... i must talk directly and if a judgement creeps into my words, then that judgement is actually felt over here.  I know you will ignore it, justify it,  or tell me to shove it up my ass as usual ... so be it.

...

i cannot quite figure out why you flash this here in this context.

You flashed it to do what ... to claim that i was confused about qualia? .... to say that i had blended something with something else which should have stayed distinct?  What?




David says
We chose Qualia as the wiki link above points out...It relates to a *something* that is intrinsically unique to an individual.
As a clinic we come across a vast array of issues and combinations of issues with life events and personal circumstances that mark an individauls character and or development in ways that are formed through their experience of life.

Only that individual can truly comprehend the personal and physiological events that formed the landscape of their consciousness, and often the deep personal scaring that goes with that. We choose not to label clients, rather to unravel the events and discover the roots and by gently bringing them into present consciousness commence the healing process of moving on.

It is ongoing work, both in ourselves (we all have issues) and in social structures. Hence Project.

Qualia is also Latin rooted, so is unchanged in Catalan, Spanish, English and recognisable in other Eurasian dialects.

We use the surreal images to provoke issues, yet at the same time not to label stereotypes.

I wish you well with your forum. I ask only that you tread lightly where fragile people undergoing recovery from deep hurt or damage are concerned.

Very Best Wishes

David Powell
Co-Founder
Qualia Project

Seth says
Hello David, thanks for noticing my blog where it noticed your post about Qualia Project.   My interest in qualia is not clinical but for my awareness of living.   It just dawned on me that I cannot distinguish between qualia and experience.  It seems we have two words for the same thing.  Perhaps there is a linguistic distinction ... i don't know ... but is there any thing that you can say using the word "qualia" which would not be equally true if you used the word "experience" instead?

Seth says
source: mark
There is definitely NO elephant in my room. Hallucinating dear bro?
well i didn't actually anticipate that there was going to be a your room, my room kind of situation going on here on this particular subject matter.  Maybe the elephant in our communications here is more of this nature. 



Seth says
Eiamme 2014-11-10 10:09:36 17882
I doubt that RED is unique to an individual. Otherwise what good would the word be to others. I like the notion rather than qualia we encounter world in percepts.


Well some experiences are more similar from individual to individual than others.  The more similar the experiences, the more the corresponding words work to accurately refer from person to person.  Knowing why some experiences are so easily refereed to and others are not is the topic of this analysis.  

What is interesting to note is that esoteric matters belong, (er, of their very nature), to the experiences that cannot be accurately refereed to.  I said that to say, is that not the elephant in this room?

Eiamyme says
seth 2014-11-14 09:55:33 17882
source: mark
.. or perhaps qualia is less about or like Mind & more like soul.  RS & GW and others have distinctions within the soul
The Wikipedia has an interesting take on qualia which even mentions the name of the G+ group as well.

  RS&GW did kind of define "soul" as feeling ... and since a "qualia" is how something feels ... yes, me thinks, they are the same thing.  I consider "mind" to be more just an awareness of the connections and associations between things.  Thing is, those connections and associations can be recorded and retrieved in an external media like the fastblogit SQL database.  The qualia that we humans feel ... er well nobody knows how to do that external to a human yet, ... er do they?

Nope !
If anything PR uses the term "feeling awareness" & "feeling attention" which is probably a feature of the consciousness soul more than anything else.
I still like the pure sensory percept as RS did it. Feeling is too broad & goes a bit too far down the road of cognizing & the sequence of encounter for my taste.


Seth says
source: mark
.. or perhaps qualia is less about or like Mind & more like soul.  RS & GW and others have distinctions within the soul
The Wikipedia has an interesting take on qualia which even mentions the name of the G+ group as well.

  RS&GW did kind of define "soul" as feeling ... and since a "qualia" is how something feels ... yes, me thinks, they are the same thing.  I consider "mind" to be more just an awareness of the connections and associations between things.  Thing is, those connections and associations can be recorded and retrieved in an external media like the fastblogit SQL database.  The qualia that we humans feel ... er well nobody knows how to do that external to a human yet, ... er do they?


Eiamyme says
Just ran into this set of strange qualia on FB (*) - I am beginning to like the term phenomena better than qualia.


Seth says
Eiamyme 2014-11-14 10:18:41 17882
seth 2014-11-14 09:55:33 17882
source: mark
.. or perhaps qualia is less about or like Mind & more like soul.  RS & GW and others have distinctions within the soul
The Wikipedia has an interesting take on qualia which even mentions the name of the G+ group as well.

  RS&GW did kind of define "soul" as feeling ... and since a "qualia" is how something feels ... yes, me thinks, they are the same thing.  I consider "mind" to be more just an awareness of the connections and associations between things.  Thing is, those connections and associations can be recorded and retrieved in an external media like the fastblogit SQL database.  The qualia that we humans feel ... er well nobody knows how to do that external to a human yet, ... er do they?

Nope !
If anything PR uses the term "feeling awareness" & "feeling attention" which is probably a feature of the consciousness soul more than anything else.
I still like the pure sensory percept as RS did it. Feeling is too broad & goes a bit too far down the road of cognizing & the sequence of encounter for my taste.


I don't think it is particularly important what words we use to point to these thingies.  I'm more interested in understanding how they work together.  

Fact is we can make an automaton which functions just fine, to whatever extent our technology is capable, without having an inside .. without having to care about anything it is processing ... without feeling it ... with no qualia at all.   We just cannot create the caring-feeling-qualia in a machine ... nobody knows how to do that yet ... and i can imagine never will. 

It seems to me that this soul thingey (forgetting for a minute about the presumptions that we learn about it from the authority of the past)  is an emergent qality of the nature of this networked media itself.  In other words it has to grow there ... it cannot be uprooted.  That kind of explains why some event feels so very different to you than it does to me .... same event, different point of view connected to different roots. 

Eiamyme says
seth 2014-11-14 10:54:08 17882
Eiamyme 2014-11-14 10:18:41 17882
seth 2014-11-14 09:55:33 17882
source: mark
.. or perhaps qualia is less about or like Mind & more like soul.  RS & GW and others have distinctions within the soul
The Wikipedia has an interesting take on qualia which even mentions the name of the G+ group as well.

  RS&GW did kind of define "soul" as feeling ... and since a "qualia" is how something feels ... yes, me thinks, they are the same thing.  I consider "mind" to be more just an awareness of the connections and associations between things.  Thing is, those connections and associations can be recorded and retrieved in an external media like the fastblogit SQL database.  The qualia that we humans feel ... er well nobody knows how to do that external to a human yet, ... er do they?

Nope !
If anything PR uses the term "feeling awareness" & "feeling attention" which is probably a feature of the consciousness soul more than anything else.
I still like the pure sensory percept as RS did it. Feeling is too broad & goes a bit too far down the road of cognizing & the sequence of encounter for my taste.


I don't think it is particularly important what words we use to point to these thingies.  I'm more interested in understanding how they work together.  

Fact is we can make an automaton which functions just fine, to whatever extent our technology is capable, without having an inside .. without having to care about anything it is processing ... without feeling it ... with no qualia at all.   We just cannot create the caring-feeling-qualia in a machine ... nobody knows how to do that yet ... and i can imagine never will. 

It seems to me that this soul thingey (forgetting for a minute about the presumptions that we learn about it from the authority of the past)  is an emergent qality of the nature of this networked media itself.  In other words it has to grow there ... it cannot be uprooted.  That kind of explains why some event feels so very different to you than it does to me .... same event, different point of view connected to different roots. 
... leaving aside the authority issues of the Boz for a moment - munge the words away & you might have an experience without words ... amazing ... why bother with pesky words. Such are a bit hard to grasp, but I have & can still do it. I hang out with such an event & eventually a word comes to me.  See also the strange qualia I mentioned above.


Seth says
i wonder if this article, "Consciousness Creates Reality” – Physicists Admit The Universe Is Immaterial, Mental & Spiritual", would be interesting to read in this context.

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  48. Thought about: REpresentation - comment 57743 - comment 57813 with 2 viewings related by tag "consciousness".
  49. Thought Being awake is being conscious with 2 viewings related by tag "consciousness".
  50. Thought about: chez shinae: on the fuckonomics of causes with 2 viewings related by tag "item 17911".