chez shinae: on the fuckonomics of causes


Well said !   I especially like your saying, "we champion causes as much to express our souls as to change anything" ... for that is how i feel as well.  

Yet to presume that such miniscule personal give-a-fucks, well expressed, do not matter in the grand scheme of things is to presume that our humanity itself does not matter either.  Me thinks they do matter just because they build on each other ... mine on yours, yours on his, his on hers, etc, etc, etc ...

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  1. shinae
  2. give a fuck
  3. causes
  4. in my network
  5. fuckonomics
  6. item 17910
  7. item 17911
  8. werner erhard
  9. cognitive dissonance

Comments


Seth says
M 2014-10-30 08:56:56 17911
From another quarter of the Universe there is d'A



Yes definitely ... there is never enough said about positive resonance ... What's in *your* network?

Seth says
M 2014-10-30 09:56:11 17911
Try on this one for the thoughts about cause from W.E. - might piss you off, though.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P_A8YsikiV0 
~
found here on FB.  ...


Well, i guess since this was introduced as ...
by source: presumably WE himself

"Sometime around now —it may have happened five years ago or 50 years ago —but sometime

around now, the rules for living successfully on earth shifted, and an opportunity, unseen before, began to reveal itself.

This opportunity is a context —a particular space or paradigm, a way of being —which unexpectedly creates the possibility for a person’s life to truly make a difference.

In this context, the way each of us answers the question, ‘What is my life really going to be about?’ can literally alter the course of humanity.

The possibility to create the context in which people’s lives really matter is undoubtedly the most profound opportunity available to anyone, ever.”


... i guess i'll just have to put this hour and a half monolog on my reading list.   

although i hasten to add that i think W.E.'s solution to this peculiar problem is not necessarilay my peculiar solution ... and me thinks it would be mine that i seek.   This presumption that the self-improvement industry has that their solutions generalize over all humans is, me thinks, fundamentally flawed.


Mark de LA says
Toward the end he hints at "that which is unrecognizable to be related to, the occurring of which, if ever,  is only on the other side of that which is recognizable"  ... which words were developed ~ 1997.


Seth says
M 2014-10-30 12:05:14 17911
seth 2014-10-30 11:54:08 17911
M 2014-10-30 09:56:11 17911
Try on this one for the thoughts about cause from W.E. - might piss you off, though.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P_A8YsikiV0 
~
found here on FB.  ...


Well, i guess since this was introduced as ...
by source: presumably WE himself

"Sometime around now "it may have happened five years ago or 50 years ago "but sometime

around now, the rules for living successfully on earth shifted, and an opportunity, unseen before, began to reveal itself.

This opportunity is a context "a particular space or paradigm, a way of being "which unexpectedly creates the possibility for a person’s life to truly make a difference.

In this context, the way each of us answers the question, ‘What is my life really going to be about?’ can literally alter the course of humanity.

The possibility to create the context in which people’s lives really matter is undoubtedly the most profound opportunity available to anyone, ever.”


... i guess i'll just have to put this hour and a half monolog on my reading list.   

although i hasten to add that i think W.E.'s solution to this peculiar problem is not necessarilay my peculiar solution ... and me thinks it would be mine that i seek.   This presumption that the self-improvement industry has that their solutions generalize over all humans is, me thinks, fundamentally flawed.

It is more inspirational than what to do or how to do it.  I listened to it  while doing something else.  (it is just a thing for the ears & maybe your brain). The most peculiar thing is that although his reference is to Nixon & Watergate - it is timely now even for the ebola, illegal aliens, next election, etc ... going on today & especially 9-11 & the middle east. It is 44 minues long at high energy listening. Some of his unmentioned undercurrent is to the Hunger Project. Whatever turns you on.


ok, ... thanks for your impressions ... now i am definitely motivated to listen

Seth says

Well of course i like the take away message from Erhard's talk which i take to be:  the recognition that there are assumptions on which our basics beliefs about living are founded and that those form a box in which we must live ... and then finally his recommendation that you and i are going to have to develop a faculty to create our own special paridigm or our own special box.  That is the same thing i called, "my peculiar solution" in that same context.

However i have already rejected one of Erhard's assumptions that he emphasized so emphatically for almost an hour ... that our lives do not make a difference.  For look at it ... differences have been made ... the lives that we live today are nothing like the lives that were lived in the 1700's or any other century or generation of our history.  So, what i have found, is that, yes indeed, life goes on it's petty pace from day to day OF making differences. 

... so kewl me, i think i'm already out of his box .



Seth says
source: mark
kewl enjoy the box outside the box. We all do make a difference if only our ashes & remains feed some bacteria which grows some plankton which feeds a fish that .....
p.s. the rwg is yet one of the boxes inside the outside of one of those boxes .....
... well i don't think the actual differences in our lives that have been made since the 18th century could reasonably be attributed to our bodies feeding bacteria. 

"inside the outside" ... i like the way you put that.  I also believe that RWG shit is  your peculiar box ... me i see it, yet it is not in my network (operational paradign LOL)  ... for i have my commitment to otherness ... which for me perhaps is yet inside the outside of peculair solution ...


Seth says
Incidentally people do things "unrecognizable in their ordinary context" all the time ... usually those are just seen as crazy or gross ... and as such are discounted ... no difference made.  I think the trick is to do things that are just barley recognizable and which move the context itself.   People notice that shit and things themselves can change in response.  Maybe that's called being in tune ... er, a bit different than Erhard's message ... and might be a bit different take on it than you have.  Excluding the RWG, what take on it do you have?

Mark de LA says
seth 2014-11-02 14:27:29 17911
source: mark

Yep still in the box of RWG ... (which is OK by me - making it wrong doesn't put you outside that box) except it is a LIE that you are not.
Q.E.D
... i didn't say i was outside of your RWG box ... what i am saying is more that that box does't matter to me as much as it seems to matter to you.  Look i eat ... and i go on walks ... but i don't have to eat all the time and i do not walk all the time ... eating and walking are not a big box for me ... in other words nothing to keep obsessing about ... nothing to keep poking other people about. 

an appreciation for otherness is one of the reasons, me thinks, that allows me to hear others telling me that i am wrong ... and appreciating that to their peculiar world i am wrong ... and that is ok ... there not necessarily being any reason for me to attempt to convince them that i am right in my being and their viewpoint is in error ... for, really, that is not for me to say.

so, bro, if you continue to obsess about this RWG shit, i can well continue to ignore your obsession ... who knows, maybe the gestalt you get from continually doing that is like pure Zen honey ... that i am surly missing out on .
... & maybe your constant mismatch with your otherness asserting your Me(i) as right or preferred rather than my whatever makes a real conversation with you, which you might be longing nearly impossible.  But, maybe the only longing there is for you-self.
Tsk ...tsk ..
<= where zen honey really comes from.

Seth says
source: mark

Yep still in the box of RWG ... (which is OK by me - making it wrong doesn't put you outside that box) except it is a LIE that you are not.
Q.E.D
... i didn't say i was outside of your RWG box ... what i am saying is more that that box does't matter to me as much as it seems to matter to you.  Look i eat ... and i go on walks ... but i don't have to eat all the time and i do not walk all the time ... eating and walking are not a big box for me ... in other words nothing to keep obsessing about ... nothing to keep poking other people about. 

an appreciation for otherness is one of the reasons, me thinks, that allows me to hear others telling me that i am wrong ... and appreciating that to their peculiar world i am wrong ... and that is ok ... there not necessarily being any reason for me to attempt to convince them that i am right in my being and their viewpoint is in error ... for, really, that is not for me to say.

so, bro, if you continue to obsess about this RWG shit, i can well continue to ignore your obsession ... who knows, maybe the gestalt you get from continually doing that is like pure Zen honey ... that i am surly missing out on .

Seth says
well of course its not about me ... and its not even about you .... and its not about the RWG ... those just being variations on  Erhard's boxes ... so i am not quite so very sure why you switched from shinae's and Erhard's and my thoughts  to those ... oh well, oh well, oh well.

anyway i did discover that edge in Erhard's tirade against making a difference:  differences were made.  Me thinks that is a serious flaw in his presentation ... in his thought process in getting to "you don't count, you don't make a difference".   Can you show me what i am missing there?  ... no RWG involved.  Do you know what i mean ... can you think that thought and see its truth too?

Of course that flaw does not negate what Erhard said about giving up boxes.  Those boxes, those paradigms, those assumptions encroach, control, and confine.  I can see how that is so very true.    At some point ... for most perhaps in the distant future ... we are going to overthrow the stupid ones and will make this human spirit soar ... or whatever other superlative you want to attach.  That is the Leviathan story.   me, for now, I just try to go beyond the little boxes inside and all around me here.  i think that everybody has been doing that for a long long time ... lots of differences have been made ... some seem good, some not so good.

Seth says
choy 2014-11-03 00:31:23 17911
I think you missed the whole point of W.E. & went for the minutiae. Erhard was trying to wake people up out of their ordinary stupors & do something unrecognizable in their ordinary contexts etc.

ZZzz..
yep got that part, and express it as follows ...

he dealt with a hard problem for most of us: the perception that our own lives and efforts seem to make such minuscule difference in the petty pace of life from day to day.  he showed that kind of thinking itself is fundamentally flawed within the boxes we usually think.  i agree with that and see it myself.   Perhaps you didn't notice that i was thinking outside of the usual box when i said, well we can see that differences have been been made by examining history itself ... the implication being that from that perspective some of our lives did make a difference.  that might be a hard one to get without first appreciating (counting) otherness ... you know, all that which is not you.  to me that is a clarion call to express myself in this life ... to add my peculiar voice to help make up the becoming of this grand human being. 

i rather think that others will go through some other thought process in that regard ... what was yours?

The tricky part here for me is to reconcile that train of thought with the external science perspective, which taken alone i view as bankrupt leading to a kind of slavery and a discounting of my inner thrust that i covet.  That's why i am reading your Erhard along with Sinner et all.  I'm looking here for thoughts that actually work yet are not dependent on just some self serving emotional surge.   I sersously doubt that my percular solutions to those edges would mean anything to you at all.  No problem, just the way this ball bounces. 

Seth says
source: mark
W.E. & his successors teach that to create out of nothing requires not only dealing with what is truly new & outside the box but not describing it as a remedy for what is wrong or something you don't like. Positivity! All of that is outside of materialistic science which can't explain why & how any shit exists at all anytime, anywhere or ever. In the early days before I had given much thought to it I gave a stand up talk about Common Logic in one of the successor seminars & got chastized for continually presenting Common Logic as an alternative instead of a fundamental positive presentation of what I wanted to do with it.  Later on this emerged but never really caught on & Egos prevailed.
Mark: ... Common Logic is a SYNERGY OF INDIVIDUALS called forth to establish the economics & politics of a Golden-Rule-based-society: We are modeled after the God-given perfect example of dynamic equilibrium given to us as the human body. We dedicate our work to the proposition that the ends & the means - (both the goals & the process ) must be true, beautiful & good to be fulfilled in Common Logic.
... I would probably tune it up a bit for today's world, but it still inspires my mind.

Well yes, a synergy of individuals is frequently outside of any box and the usual context  ... and when it does happen is it is not necessarily a reaction to something wrong or even an old context ... but rather creates its own new context.  Thanks for teasing that out .

whenever it even happens for a brief moment, I always get a little tweak knowing that we are going in the right direction.   Strangely enough many of the things  i stick out there in the world have the potential to contribute to some synergy ... then all too often what is missing is not in my domain to effect .  I get my jollies from sticking it anyway ... so sue me .

Mark de LA says
Fuckonomics ? eh? laughing

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