Knowing

About: donald rumsfeld - wikiquote

source: ... The message is that there are no "knowns." There are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say there are things that we now know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we do not know we don't know. So when we do the best we can and we pull all this information together, and we then say well that's basically what we see as the situation, that is really only the known knowns and the known unknowns. And each year, we discover a few more of those unknown unknowns.
... Need a Venn Diagram anyone.
The same goes for experience and the stuff in 17936 & 17937 as well. Anyone that pretends to know the things they don't know they don't know is probably a politician or an idiot. Same goes for other kinds of boundaries vis-a-vis consciousness.


Tags

  1. knowing
  2. item 17936
  3. experience

Comments


Eiamyme says
seth 2014-11-12 11:54:06 17938
source: mark
If there is a difference then there is a distinction however slight & one can say something is there.
... quite so. 

Yet whether you know you experienced X, or whether X was experienced by somebody else, are two entirely different matters.  The world is separated into things that you experience, and things that you do not experience.  That is true whether or not you know which is which. 

Bear in mind my assertion, "there is a consequential boundary between that which a human experiences and that which they do not", is true whether or not one knows they experienced a thing or not.  In fact experiencing something, yet not being totally aware that you experienced it, will still changes what you are ... and will still effect how you think, feel, and do. 
So what?  If I followed you, such is vacuously uninteresting. Was that profound for you? Whether a boundary exists or there is consequences for any of that has truth which is up for grabs & not obvious or necessary.  By your own profundity that which is - IS & that which IS not - IS'nt  & says nothing about any boundary.  If it did it would be a silly as asking where does the Universe end?



Seth says
very kewl and all for you that you are moving on.

Nevertheless the existence and nature of the ego/otherness boundary does form the basis for inquiring into the "dynamic relationship between freedom, authority, habit, and the eog/otherness boundary". 

Eiamyme says
seth 2014-11-12 17:00:15 17938
very kewl and all for you that you are moving on.

Nevertheless the existence and nature of the ego/otherness boundary does form the basis for inquiring into the "dynamic relationship between freedom, authority, habit, and the eog/otherness boundary". 
For you! For me it is just a bunch of words.


Eiamyme says
seth 2014-11-12 16:17:12 17938
source: mark

I have experiences - I am not my experience. You may be different.


... Well bear in mind that prior experience echoes in our being and informs current experience.  Without that effect i don't think current experience would feel like anything at all.  Perhaps your "have" relationship is another way of thinking about how prior experience effects current  ... or in your words {prior experience --"Has"--> current experience}.  I don't know ... your word "has" in this context seems not to mean much to me.  We  don't have any legal possession relationship to what we experience ... there is never any question of that. 

Well anyway that is the way it is seeming over here. 

Now, were we actually different in this regard would be a big surprise to me .  But whether we are different or not would seem to answer your question "so what?" ... in other words my assertion means something non trivial ...er, even to you ...  and actually would make a difference in the universe one way or another.
Yep, I have said my piece & exposed a small part of my ontology here & now I move on.  Enjoy the difference or similarity - it is ontology - not something needing discussion.


Eiamyme says
seth 2014-11-12 10:37:58 17938
Eiamyme 2014-11-12 10:17:51 17938
seth 2014-11-12 10:12:27 17938
yep it is a fuzzy boundary.  lot's of things are that way*.  just because there is a fuzzy boundary (ie a boundary that cannot always be precisely determined) does not mean that there is not a consequential difference on which side of the boundary an event occurs. 

* another famous fuzzy boundary is expressed in the uncertainty principle ...
source:  oregon edu

Of course, once a measurement of the particle is made, a single momentum is observed. But, like fuzzy position, momentum before the observation is intrinsically uncertain. This is what is know as the uncertainty principle, that certain quantities, such as position, energy and time, are unknown, except by probabilities. In its purest form, the uncertainty principle states that accurate knowledge of complementarity pairs is impossible. For example, you can measure the location of an electron, but not its momentum (energy) at the same time.
...
If the boundary is fuzzy it may not be there in the first place, eh?

the consequential difference is there, you just may not be aware of which side of the difference an event lies.  i dont't think the extreme cases where one might not be aware of whether an event was in their experience or not change the basic perdicament ... in most cases, given any particular specific event, i think most people will be able to tell quite immediately whether they experienced it or not.  For example, denise just asked me whether a box was marked with pink or blue to determine which product to ship, this one or that one.  I experienced that event ... you did not.  There is no doubt, that experience is part of me, and is otherness to you. 
Too many lost pointers, Seth, to figure out what you are really talking about - must have invoked the favorite uncertainty principle.  If there is a difference then there is a distinction however slight & one can say something is there. Otherwise one is munging about in chaos not yet become cosmos.


Eiamyme says
seth 2014-11-12 12:34:08 17938
... and incidentally that "actuality" is quite independent of whether you stated in some previous life.  experience is experience no matter in what context it happens.
The quality of experiences in some realms are entirely dependent upon context & in others not so much .  There is context free experience since context is just being at some level. Humans who have the need to explain things need context to provide language to do so.


Seth says
Eiamyme 2014-11-12 18:53:26 17938
seth 2014-11-12 17:00:15 17938
very kewl and all for you that you are moving on.

Nevertheless the existence and nature of the ego/otherness boundary does form the basis for inquiring into the "dynamic relationship between freedom, authority, habit, and the eog/otherness boundary". 

For you! For me it is just a bunch of words.


yep that factoid about you and my communication would always be the situation for any  communications for which you lack an intention to understand.  so what?  ... you said that to say what?  ... that you lack the intention to understand my words informs me how?  ... what do you intend that i do with that knowledge of your lack of intention to understand?

Eiamyme says
seth 2014-11-12 12:28:52 17938
Eiamyme 2014-11-12 12:11:07 17938
seth 2014-11-12 11:54:06 17938
source: mark
If there is a difference then there is a distinction however slight & one can say something is there.
... quite so. 

Yet whether you know you experienced X, or whether X was experienced by somebody else, are two entirely different matters.  The world is separated into things that you experience, and things that you do not experience.  That is true whether or not you know which is which. 

Bear in mind my assertion, "there is a consequential boundary between that which a human experiences and that which they do not", is true whether or not one knows they experienced a thing or not.  In fact experiencing something, yet not being totally aware that you experienced it, will still changes what you are ... and will still effect how you think, feel, and do. 
So what?  If I followed you, such is vacuously uninteresting. Was that profound for you? Whether a boundary exists or there is consequences for any of that has truth which is up for grabs & not obvious or necessary.  By your own profundity that which is - IS & that which IS not - IS'nt  & says nothing about any boundary.  If it did it would be a silly as asking where does the Universe end?



Well, just a personal note about me here.  I did predict your "so what" moment ... see 17936 .

Regarding the profundity to you, me thinks it is time to ask your famous qustion of yourself:  "What are you?" ... or its alternative spellings, "Who are you?", or "Who you are?". 

The answer that i get based upon my assumption, which apparently you now understand, is "You are what you experience".  What you experience or not is the ego/otherness boundary.  Experience defines ego ... and ... er ... constructs it.
I have experiences - I am not my experience. You may be different.



Eiamyme says
seth 2014-11-12 21:36:16 17938
Eiamyme 2014-11-12 18:53:26 17938
seth 2014-11-12 17:00:15 17938
very kewl and all for you that you are moving on.

Nevertheless the existence and nature of the ego/otherness boundary does form the basis for inquiring into the "dynamic relationship between freedom, authority, habit, and the eog/otherness boundary". 

For you! For me it is just a bunch of words.


yep that factoid about you and my communication would always be the situation for any  communications for which you lack an intention to understand.  so what?  ... you said that to say what?  ... that you lack the intention to understand my words informs me how?  ... what do you intend that i do with that knowledge of your lack of intention to understand?
It parallels your intention to quibble & not grok what I am saying without a bunch of munging it back into your own stuff.  I am just not into that any more.
Good Luck.


Eiamyme says
seth 2014-11-14 06:33:15 17938
comprehending IS blending ("munging") what is said by others and the network of my own experience ("stuff").    Why does that continually annoy you?  Really, why does it annoy you? 
Because it subsumes my stuff into stuff of yours pretending agreement sometimes, contradicting it at other times & eventually throwing out what I have said not understanding what it was that I have said  & goes on and on and on abstracting to infinity & beyond...... but hey! ... I'm just saying & you were just asking, eh?


Eiamyme says
seth 2014-11-14 08:11:15 17938
Eiamyme 2014-11-14 07:49:04 17938
seth 2014-11-14 06:33:15 17938
comprehending IS blending ("munging") what is said by others and the network of my own experience ("stuff").    Why does that continually annoy you?  Really, why does it annoy you? 
Because it subsumes my stuff into stuff of yours pretending agreement sometimes, contradicting it at other times & eventually throwing out what I have said not understanding what it was that I have said  & goes on and on and on abstracting to infinity & beyond...... but hey! ... I'm just saying & you were just asking, eh?


Well blending our thoughts and actions and feelings is what we are do here to make this living work.  Why that would feel bad to you, seems to me to be  just something for yourself ... me, i cannot be involved in that feeling .... in fact, i am not even so very sure that i want to know about it ... because the solution for you to that problem is just so very simple ... er, Don't work with me ... there being plenty of other fishies in the sea. 
Yep! The eternal Me,(I). take your own advice! None other will work, anyway.

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