Otherness

About: Nuff Said - everything except Ego is else/otherness


It is well to remember that the entire universe, with one trifling exception, is composed of others.

John Andrew Holmes

American Poet (1904-1962)




Tags

  1. otherness
  2. appreciation of otherness

Comments


Eiamyme says
seth 2014-12-29 10:12:57 18034
yeah that's pretty much the way i defined it too ... but i don't use the word "ego" ... for me it has way too much baggage attached in most people's minds.  I like to keep it a real simple concept ... everything that is not me, is other than me .. ie, "otherness".  People, no doubt, will parse out what they consider to be themselves and what they do not consider is inside their being.  But that doesn't matter ... the same predicament seems to obtain no matter how it is divided. 

Incidentally even if you totally can feel Watt's perspective that you don't exist ... that you are a mere mental cherry on top and can feel the universe through yourself ... the same predicament mentioned above still exists ... it is a feature of the universe ... (or so i say) .... not a mere illusion.  Me i like that predicament ... though that has not always been the case.   so for me, it is an edge to push against ... not an illusion to be Gestalted away with a so called "enlightenment" ... which is how Buddhism usually bills it. 
Gotta have an Ego or Self or something to detect what is other to it!


Eiamyme says
seth 2014-12-29 11:08:32 18034
incidentally it is interesting to consider the consequences of different Gestalts on otherness ... which has the most practical consequence to what actually happens to humanity ? .... er, to communication?  ... er, to language? ... er, to consciousness itself
I am more inclined to the zen perspective of Ontology. Gestalts are made up - intellectualized, psychologized & anthropomorphosized stories about experiences. That which IS is experienced through the senses (12) ..... that is where the IS, IS!


Eiamyme says
seth 2014-12-29 12:07:08 18034
Eiamyme 2014-12-29 11:50:21 18034
seth 2014-12-29 11:08:32 18034
incidentally it is interesting to consider the consequences of different Gestalts on otherness ... which has the most practical consequence to what actually happens to humanity ? .... er, to communication?  ... er, to language? ... er, to consciousness itself
I am more inclined to the zen perspective of Ontology. Gestalts are made up - intellectualized, psychologized & anthropomorphosized stories about experiences. That which IS is experienced through the senses (12) ..... that is where the IS, IS!


well as my being becomes aware of some thingey ... feels that thingey, then there is not necessarily a intellectualized experience there.  That perhaps comes afterward as a linguistic expression.  In my description i was calling the former experience a Gestalt ... nothing necessarily inrellectualized or phychologized or amthrpomophosides storied about it ... just the experience itself.   We both know that the stories come afterward as expressions communicated perhaps in language.  So i still do not understand how you are seeing it any different than i am. 
As long as you hold Gestalt as percept.  When you pretend you Gestalt humanity I have a difference - you would be just listening to a bunch of stories you have accumulated in your mind about that word humanity.


Eiamyme says
seth 2014-12-29 14:05:31 18034
source: mark
NOT A PREDICAMENT! it is just SO!
... well many a predicament is "just SO" ... it is a situation that obtains ... the Cascades are just there ... separating Western Washington and the Ocean breezes from the rest of the flat agricultural desert part of the state ... etc.    That is a situation like the one that puts you over there viewing this in your mind and I am over here viewing it in mine.   Lots of ways to say it,   "That is the situation that obtains ... there be an edge ... that is the predicament ... that is just so". Your mismatching of my words  over there being quite otherness to me.  Just a thing you almost always do which  almost always feels to me like you excusing yourself from understanding what i say. 

You missed the English language meaning of the word which has a negative connotation somewhere in your (Me,I)  differencing.
 

Eiamyme says
seth 2014-12-29 12:08:29 18034
Eiamyme 2014-12-29 11:47:48 18034
seth 2014-12-29 10:12:57 18034
yeah that's pretty much the way i defined it too ... but i don't use the word "ego" ... for me it has way too much baggage attached in most people's minds.  I like to keep it a real simple concept ... everything that is not me, is other than me .. ie, "otherness".  People, no doubt, will parse out what they consider to be themselves and what they do not consider is inside their being.  But that doesn't matter ... the same predicament seems to obtain no matter how it is divided. 

Incidentally even if you totally can feel Watt's perspective that you don't exist ... that you are a mere mental cherry on top and can feel the universe through yourself ... the same predicament mentioned above still exists ... it is a feature of the universe ... (or so i say) .... not a mere illusion.  Me i like that predicament ... though that has not always been the case.   so for me, it is an edge to push against ... not an illusion to be Gestalted away with a so called "enlightenment" ... which is how Buddhism usually bills it. 
Gotta have an Ego or Self or something to detect what is other to it!


quite so .  that is a feature of the predicament .
NOT A PREDICAMENT! it is just SO!
predicament (n.) Look up predicament at Dictionary.comearly 15c., "category, class; one of Aristotle's 10 categories," from Medieval Latin predicamentum, from Late Latin praedicamentum "quality, category, something predicted, that which is asserted," from Latin praedicatus, past participle of praedicare (see predicate). Praedicamentum is a loan-translation of Greek kategoria, Aristotle's word. The meaning "unpleasant situation" is first recorded 1580s.

Eiamyme says
Eiamyme 2014-12-30 08:42:19 18034
seth 2014-12-30 07:55:57 18034
Eiamyme 2014-12-29 15:09:03 18034
seth 2014-12-29 14:05:31 18034
source: mark
NOT A PREDICAMENT! it is just SO!
... well many a predicament is "just SO" ... it is a situation that obtains ... the Cascades are just there ... separating Western Washington and the Ocean breezes from the rest of the flat agricultural desert part of the state ... etc.    That is a situation like the one that puts you over there viewing this in your mind and I am over here viewing it in mine.   Lots of ways to say it,   "That is the situation that obtains ... there be an edge ... that is the predicament ... that is just so". Your mismatching of my words  over there being quite otherness to me.  Just a thing you almost always do which  almost always feels to me like you excusing yourself from understanding what i say. 

You missed the English language meaning of the word which has a negative connotation somewhere in your (Me,I)  differencing.
 

Well yes, "predicament" can have a negative connotation of  a problem that must needs solution ... or of a situation that one would rather avoid.   The reason i chose to use the word is that the me-you separation has that very same feature ... otherwise what was the need for Watt's video .... why even a need of enlightenment?  But ok, i get that the situation does not need to be considered a problem,  notwistanding that even this very paragraph would be unnecessary to penn were that it not .
... for some infinite combination of munged ideas collected into an "IT" for convenience of the Bzoton.
.. mumbo-jumbo otherwise.


Seth says
Eiamyme 2014-12-30 08:48:24 18034
Eiamyme 2014-12-30 08:42:19 18034
seth 2014-12-30 07:55:57 18034
Eiamyme 2014-12-29 15:09:03 18034
seth 2014-12-29 14:05:31 18034
source: mark
NOT A PREDICAMENT! it is just SO!
... well many a predicament is "just SO" ... it is a situation that obtains ... the Cascades are just there ... separating Western Washington and the Ocean breezes from the rest of the flat agricultural desert part of the state ... etc.    That is a situation like the one that puts you over there viewing this in your mind and I am over here viewing it in mine.   Lots of ways to say it,   "That is the situation that obtains ... there be an edge ... that is the predicament ... that is just so". Your mismatching of my words  over there being quite otherness to me.  Just a thing you almost always do which  almost always feels to me like you excusing yourself from understanding what i say. 

You missed the English language meaning of the word which has a negative connotation somewhere in your (Me,I)  differencing.
 

Well yes, "predicament" can have a negative connotation of  a problem that must needs solution ... or of a situation that one would rather avoid.   The reason i chose to use the word is that the me-you separation has that very same feature ... otherwise what was the need for Watt's video .... why even a need of enlightenment?  But ok, i get that the situation does not need to be considered a problem,  notwistanding that even this very paragraph would be unnecessary to penn were that it not .
... for some infinite combination of munged ideas collected into an "IT" for convenience of the Bzoton.
.. mumbo-jumbo otherwise.


well parsing the "it" should be child's play even for you ... i intentionally left it for you to choose so that you might even get the joke .  ... which, incidentally, i am still gigging about.

Eiamyme says
seth 2014-12-30 08:35:49 18034
source: mark

When you pretend you Gestalt humanity I have a difference - you would be just listening to a bunch of stories you have accumulated in your mind about that word humanity.

... .


"Gestalt" names the actual experience where the whole thing changes perceptually.  Were that i could be my own otherness, then i would not have to pretend.  But intently listening to it without judgement, however it comes to me, is the best i can do in this predicament ... it might just be enough for a Gestalt to flash the dots together ... don't ya think?

... and no, it would not be just about the word "humanity".
For perception to change one has to improve/injure their senses via consciousness or engage  cognition. I think you have munged experience into gestalt for your own purposes.


Seth says
Eiamyme 2014-12-30 08:46:38 18034
seth 2014-12-30 08:35:49 18034
source: mark

When you pretend you Gestalt humanity I have a difference - you would be just listening to a bunch of stories you have accumulated in your mind about that word humanity.

... .


"Gestalt" names the actual experience where the whole thing changes perceptually.  Were that i could be my own otherness, then i would not have to pretend.  But intently listening to it without judgement, however it comes to me, is the best i can do in this predicament ... it might just be enough for a Gestalt to flash the dots together ... don't ya think?

... and no, it would not be just about the word "humanity".
For perception to change one has to improve/injure their senses via consciousness or engage  cognition. I think you have munged experience into gestalt for your own purposes.


i don't get what you are saying.   a Gestalt is a experience.  it is a peculiar kind of experience. 



but now i am guessing that you are saying that it is possible to have an alternative path .... not just {sense -> percieve to subjective awareness} but more directly { sense <-> awareness}.  that must be  the seeing a visual scene without knowing its meaning cognitionally that you've talked about before.  i know that must be possible and i have even done it fleetingly myself ... thought i don't associate any intensity or passion to it ... to me, it's just static ... nothing to write home about.  And were there were some intensity/passion to be felt there ... well then it would be the very same commentary removed from the experience and now just rebranded as something special.  But, hey, if it is something special to you ... sound the trumpets ... play the music ... and we have a feast at last ... the toothless foodie doesn't have to eat everything his self ... crunch away

Seth says
Eiamyme 2014-12-30 13:56:58 18034
seth 2014-12-30 13:16:32 18034
Eiamyme 2014-12-30 13:00:53 18034
seth 2014-12-30 12:19:26 18034
Eiamyme 2014-12-30 10:29:47 18034
THIS IS NOTHING ABOUT GESTALT! That is your thingy.


i have no idea what "this" you are talking about ... nor why gestalting ends up being just "my thingy". 

We were talking about otherness (see title).  Then we were talking about me experiencing all of humanity even though a immense part of it is my otherness.  The best i think i can do is to Gestalt it ... and you were the one who broached that particular aspect of THIS.   So i am totally at a loss to imagine what your two sentences, one PASSIONATELY Shouted, and one pointing just at me, mean to you ... nor what you intend them to mean to me. 
This item is not about GESTALT! .... which is about a concept called gestalt.  Otherness is simply that which is other than what you answer "I" to or what you identify with "I".  No munging of other stories will do the job except acknowledging that.


Well otherness un-apprehended is nothing at all to us ... hardly even a topic for inquiry.   Yet part of the process of apprehending otherness is the events where we actually experimentally do apprehend it ... those i call "Gestalts" just for the sake of having a pointer to them. 

Yes i have acknowledged you definition of "otherness" and it is quite close enough to mine for government work. 
Sorry, dude - I don't apprehend otherness.  That's your schticky rubric & story & you are apparently sticking to it.


Well according to my mind,  if you do not apprehend otherness ... not the word, but rather theings that are unknown and not already a part of you ... then you are not conscious in the traditional way the word "conscious" is used today.   Of course once apprehended, it will have affected you being, and then not so very completely otherness to you.   When i apprehend otherness i frequently get some measure of surprise .   I am absolutely sure that you apprehend otherness approximately the same ... for that is what i meant by the term.  

This is nothing new, really should not be controversial,  and is not something that i made up.  I think it is just common knowledge that i have expressed in English lending a bit of depth to this concept called "otherness" that we have been playing with here. 

Eiamyme says
seth 2014-12-30 13:16:32 18034
Eiamyme 2014-12-30 13:00:53 18034
seth 2014-12-30 12:19:26 18034
Eiamyme 2014-12-30 10:29:47 18034
THIS IS NOTHING ABOUT GESTALT! That is your thingy.


i have no idea what "this" you are talking about ... nor why gestalting ends up being just "my thingy". 

We were talking about otherness (see title).  Then we were talking about me experiencing all of humanity even though a immense part of it is my otherness.  The best i think i can do is to Gestalt it ... and you were the one who broached that particular aspect of THIS.   So i am totally at a loss to imagine what your two sentences, one PASSIONATELY Shouted, and one pointing just at me, mean to you ... nor what you intend them to mean to me. 
This item is not about GESTALT! .... which is about a concept called gestalt.  Otherness is simply that which is other than what you answer "I" to or what you identify with "I".  No munging of other stories will do the job except acknowledging that.


Well otherness un-apprehended is nothing at all to us ... hardly even a topic for inquiry.   Yet part of the process of apprehending otherness is the events where we actually experimentally do apprehend it ... those i call "Gestalts" just for the sake of having a pointer to them. 

Yes i have acknowledged you definition of "otherness" and it is quite close enough to mine for government work. 
Sorry, dude - I don't apprehend otherness.  That's your schticky rubric & story & you are apparently sticking to it.


Eiamyme says
I don't use the word apprehend when I mean the word grok. Otherness is munging a noun & adjective together.  Nothing to be worshiped or talk about in abstractions till blue in the face. (or the other end )



Seth says
Well the dictionary defines the word like this ...




For me the words "gorck", "recognize", "gestalt", "understand" and "apprehension" are all talking about the same thing.  Obviously there are variations of focus and connotation, but mostly just variational preferences for different audiences.  For example I wouln't say "grock" to a computer scientist, i would say "recognize" ... and i wouldn't say "gestalt" to a 10 year old, i would say "understand".

I started using the word "apprehension" after hearing ...
 ... Shakespeare's famous passage in Hamlet.

What a piece of work is a man, how noble in reason, how
infinite in faculties, in form and moving how express and
admirable, in action how like an angel, in apprehension how like
a god! the beauty of the world, the paragon of animals—and yet,
to me, what is this quintessence of dust? Man delights not me—
nor woman neither, though by your smiling you seem to say so.

... to me it speaks more to the miricle of how we humans comprehend the world.  It glorifies those experiences rather than seeing them as mundane and common every day events ... and that was why i used it here. 

Then too it's fun watching you stumble on words sometimes ... as if you had lost part of your hearing ... and hate when otherness comes into your ears to annoy you ... and so you must puke it out of your mouth as a complaint.




Eiamyme says
seth 2014-12-31 08:31:37 18034
Well the dictionary defines the word like this ...




For me the words "gorck", "recognize", "gestalt", "understand" and "apprehension" are all talking about the same thing.  Obviously there are variations of focus and connotation, but mostly just variational preferences for different audiences.  For example I wouln't say "grock" to a computer scientist, i would say "recognize" ... and i wouldn't say "gestalt" to a 10 year old, i would say "understand".

I started using the word "apprehension" after hearing ...
 ... Shakespeare's famous passage in Hamlet.

What a piece of work is a man, how noble in reason, how
infinite in faculties, in form and moving how express and
admirable, in action how like an angel, in apprehension how like
a god! the beauty of the world, the paragon of animals�"and yet,
to me, what is this quintessence of dust? Man delights not me�"
nor woman neither, though by your smiling you seem to say so.

... to me it speaks more to the miricle of how we humans comprehend the world.  It glorifies those experiences rather than seeing them as mundane and common every day events ... and that was why i used it here. 

Then too it's fun watching you stumble on words sometimes ... as if you had lost part of your hearing ... and hate when otherness comes into your ears to annoy you ... and so you must puke it out of your mouth as a complaint.



I don't stumble on words. Your munging all over words to make them fit your Ego/RWG notwithstanding.  Enjoy the cherry.


Seth says
i don't think it wise to just deny this them/us duality  ... it doesn't go away ...

watch youtube for her message ....



... but what can go away is the negative effects of it.   me, i say, just replace those with a appreciation of otherness ... respect others as you would respect yourself ... which sounds like the golder rule to me

also see my comment on G+ Qualia Project.



Mark de LA says
seth 2015-01-07 09:25:54 18034
i don't think it wise to just deny this them/us duality  ... it doesn't go away ...

watch youtube for her message ....



... but what can go away is the negative effects of it.   me, i say, just replace those with a appreciation of otherness ... respect others as you would respect yourself ... which sounds like the golder rule to me

also see my comment on G+ Qualia Project.


The negative effects can go away as easily as the positive effects can go away - memes & evolution are that way.
... & then some stick around a long time like the 1-celled amoeba.


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