Conscious is a property of the relationship between beings.


So in that context for me to say,  "I am conscious",  would be an incomplete thought.  I should rather say, "I am conscious of the sunset", or perhaps "I am conscious of you".   We know when another  person wakes up and becomes conscious just by watching what they do.   We also know when we wake up and become conscious of other beings because that property brings with it a qualia ... a feeling that all humans know and experience. 

Note:

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  2. relationship
  3. conscious
  4. qualia
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  6. item 18060

Comments


Seth says
Eiamyme 2015-01-10 10:56:21 18061
Relationship is just a concept.

So what?  Is there something wrong with becoming conscious of relationships?   I, and most other humans, have recognized that thunder follows lightning and there is a relationship between them.  I am more conscious of lightning and thunder than those humans who have not recognized that relationship.



Eiamyme says
There is nothing wrong with relationships or deriving relationships.  I spent 2 years working on entity-relationship diagramming for making computer software. I have a nice piece of software for doing that as well. It is, however, an abstraction from the real world - the focus is on the model & the map. Here is an event data model I made in that frame of mind.


Seth says
you know this is the same with any perception ... say of a stone in front of you with your eyes and your fingers.  the difference is that instead of interpreting only sensual perceptions you are using the logical faculties of your mind to notice features that are not immediately revealed by just the sensual signals.  but it is really just a higher level of perception and, imho, should not be relegated to a lesser importance to human consciousness.   just like the interpretation of your visual senses is dependent on the acuity of your eyes ... so is the interpretation of relationships dependent on the logical acuity of your mind. 

i too have heard of the Zen of ingnoring the (always subjective) implications that come from our logical mind and instead just focusing on immediate effects.  However i do not see that as a method of becoming more conscious of my environment ... although i expect that it spawns some rather enthralling qualia.

Eiamyme says
seth 2015-01-13 08:58:51 18060
Eiamyme 2015-01-13 08:44:49 18060
seth 2015-01-13 08:37:36 18060
Eiamyme 2015-01-13 08:30:48 18060
seth 2015-01-13 08:10:51 18060
Eiamyme 2015-01-10 10:56:21 18061
Relationship is just a concept.

So what?  Is there something wrong with becoming conscious of relationships?   I, and most other humans, have recognized that thunder follows lightning and there is a relationship between them.  I am more conscious of lightning and thunder than those humans who have not recognized that relationship.


I am just as conscious of them as I am present as they are happening focusing on what is happening rather than some concept somewhere.


Well knowing if you see lightning, you will shortly hear thunder, is not "focusing on some concept somewhere".  Rather it is being more conscious of the events of the moment than a person who, after seeing the lightning, would not expect the thunder.  Perhaps watch a kid who has not yet made that connection and determine whether they are more or less conscious of what is happening in the storm.
[] Zen taught me to focus on what I choose my subject to be, NOT somewhere within my mind unless there is a thought there that I choose to focus upon.  Lightning, hopefully, unless I am sitting in the electric chair, is not happening inside me.


The relationship between an occurrence of lightning and the thunder it causes is not in your mind ... but your awareness of that connection is in your mind.  Zen should teach you to focus on the actual connection, not on its awareness in your mind. 
YOU will always miss this point.
Confucius the Golden Rule: ... "If a person learns from others but doesn't think, he will be bewildered," he (Confucius) said, "But to think without learning -- that's really dangerous."
...


Seth says
Eiamyme 2015-01-14 07:04:49 18060
seth 2015-01-13 09:33:29 18060
you know this is the same with any perception ... say of a stone in front of you with your eyes and your fingers.  the difference is that instead of interpreting only sensual perceptions you are using the logical faculties of your mind to notice features that are not immediately revealed by just the sensual signals.  but it is really just a higher level of perception and, imho, should not be relegated to a lesser importance to human consciousness.   just like the interpretation of your visual senses is dependent on the acuity of your eyes ... so is the interpretation of relationships dependent on the logical acuity of your mind. 

i too have heard of the Zen of ingnoring the (always subjective) implications that come from our logical mind and instead just focusing on immediate effects.  However i do not see that as a method of becoming more conscious of my environment ... although i expect that it spawns some rather enthralling qualia.
Logic is GIGO. Your use of too is a birdie!
Focus is a key factor in learning to develop human being & all possibilities of being in this body, soul & spirit at this time & evolutionary era;  a bit beyond what has been given to us by genetics & environment. Some don't bother.  Some would argue & argue & argue that there is anything else except the latter.


Well i am not talking here about using logic such that we would need to worry about the GIGO phenomena.  Rather i am talkin about using any of our higher cognitive functions such as recognizing patterns, connecting the immediate sensual dots, and of synthesizing new possibilities.   The point is that those are a great part of us being conscious of our environment.  A  Zen meditation that seeks to ignore those awarenesses, can not increase our consciousness of our the environment with those faculties.  So the question is, what aspect of consciousness is being increased by such a Zen meditation?  My claim is that the aspect of consciousness that is increased is just the qualia of it, ... rather than the thing itself ... because that is the only thing left to come into focus.

Incidentally, i agree, focus is great ... nobody here is saying not to focus. 

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