logically speaking


... great article ... although brief is nonetheless well worth a careful read.

"What we forget is that the certainty that “one thing always means the same thing no matter what” disappears almost entirely in the real world. "

... or said differently










Ethan's equation is pretty profound too ...

                 result = target / context

... or said differentially, the broader the context, the harder it is to pin something down.


said also on facebook


Tags

  1. logic
  2. the world
  3. identity
  4. context
  5. persuasion

Comments


Seth says
Incidentally, i think something that i noticed in my crazy youth follows directly from Ethan's formula:

result = target / context

I noticed that the deeper and clearer and truer something seemed to me, the more difficult it was to communicate to somebody else.

I think that can almost be derived from the formula but not only is this margin not wide enough, but this is deep and clear and true to me ... so don't ask me to do it unless you are prepared to actually understand it.

Eiamyme says
seth 2015-01-15 19:13:01 18077
Eiamyme 2015-01-15 14:56:01 18077
     I doubt that anyone thinks that way.

You are probably right about that.  I first encountered this kind of thinking from RS when he talked about how the Rosecrutions could not bring back the information they got in the Spiritual world to the real world.  Though i did not realize it at the time i read his book.  Later i encountered instances of a lack of even a possibility of communicating deeper matters that were quite clear enough to myself: the menanings were simply not already in the vocabulary.  Of course you and I run into that lack of even a possibility of communication all the time.  But your right ... this is not common knowledge in our culture ... which does not discredit it in my eyes ... me i like original thought and the things i recognize about myself and the world that are not already well known and talked about all the time.

... One can haggle forever on what the focus is about or the proper context should be for some argument or situation. You're back in the abstract world. 
this has absolutely nothing to do with haggeling.  as long as your context continues to obsesses about that irrelevant behavior you will never understand what i am saying.

...     This country & maybe some in the Middle East are haggling about exactly what Islam says about terrorism/jihad & what sharia law means for those who are not Muslims.   For me Islam seems to isolate itself from the rest of humanity by saying the only God is Allah & the World must change into an Islamic Caliphate (the 12th ?).   Try playing with real situations & the abstractions will fade away.
...
yes it seems to me that there is a bit of dialogue going on regarding Islam's relationship to the non Muslim world.  Which is not surprising since ISIS and other terrorists are attempting to impose their context on the non muslim world.  I am sure that some radicalized muslims are quite clear in their mind and feel right in what they are doing. Just as many non muslims see that quite differently.   Is violence the only way to resolve the communication?   I would say that if each side goes deeper and deeper into their own context, then violent confrontation will become the only resolution.



The problem of bringing stuff back from the spiritual world is words will not work. At best Art may trigger something.  The spiritual world is experienced anew each experience. It is all NOW!  Try crisping up exactly who you are in language from your point of view as you say the word "I" & see how far you get.
Haggling & arguing are very similar especially with the RWG wrapped up in the middle of it.
Barbara Cubed: ... But soar as high as we may into the realm of the abstract, yet at least some symbol must be present in the mind, else we are not reasoning at all, but merely muddling in chaos not yet become cosmos.
... abstraction is just symbols talking about symbols - missing the taste of reality
Confucius (Analects): ... "If names be not correct, language is not in accordance with the truth of things. If language be not in accordance with the truth of things, affairs cannot be carried on to success.
... or from the book on the Golden Rule:
Confucius on the Golden Rule book: ... ... "If we don't call things by their correct names, then words don't mean a thing.  When words don't match reality, what is said isn't the same as what is meant.  And when what is said isn't the same as what is meant, we can't think clearly and nothing can be accomplished.  Calling things by their right names makes it possible for us to speak truthfully about them."
... not to be confused with the politics of today in the USA (& elsewhere).

Islam & Muslims are going through a power struggle RWG.  The history of Christianity has similar schisms not everyone follows the pope.  Some early popes were evil. Buddha had to travel to China for acceptance in his lifetime. .... etc.
One only needs to use the organs of the heart chakra etc to find the Golden Rule - no authority needed any longer. The evil now is enslavement by others of any religious system including atheism & secularism. Authority is not needed to find God (or whatever name you choose for her ). Logic is just stirring the soup & expecting to find something in it that wasn't there already. Logic, math & geometry are good to help quiet the mind & put it on a steady course of your own choosing, though.


Seth says
Eiamyme 2015-01-15 14:56:01 18077
     I doubt that anyone thinks that way.

You are probably right about that.  I first encountered this kind of thinking from RS when he talked about how the Rosecrutions could not bring back the information they got in the Spiritual world to the real world.  Though i did not realize it at the time i read his book.  Later i encountered instances of a lack of even a possibility of communicating deeper matters that were quite clear enough to myself: the menanings were simply not already in the vocabulary.  Of course you and I run into that lack of even a possibility of communication all the time.  But your right ... this is not common knowledge in our culture ... which does not discredit it in my eyes ... me i like original thought and the things i recognize about myself and the world that are not already well known and talked about all the time.

... One can haggle forever on what the focus is about or the proper context should be for some argument or situation. You're back in the abstract world. 
this has absolutely nothing to do with haggeling.  as long as your context continues to obsesses about that irrelevant behavior you will never understand what i am saying.

...     This country & maybe some in the Middle East are haggling about exactly what Islam says about terrorism/jihad & what sharia law means for those who are not Muslims.   For me Islam seems to isolate itself from the rest of humanity by saying the only God is Allah & the World must change into an Islamic Caliphate (the 12th ?).   Try playing with real situations & the abstractions will fade away.
...
yes it seems to me that there is a bit of dialogue going on regarding Islam's relationship to the non Muslim world.  Which is not surprising since ISIS and other terrorists are attempting to impose their context on the non muslim world.  I am sure that some radicalized muslims are quite clear in their mind and feel right in what they are doing. Just as many non muslims see that quite differently.   Is violence the only way to resolve the communication?   I would say that if each side goes deeper and deeper into their own context, then violent confrontation will become the only resolution.




Seth says
Eiamyme 2015-01-15 11:20:31 18077
As a child & on into young adulthood we heard our mother & father assertively project their opinions upon eachother (i.e. argue) . I could listen to mother or father & understand (logic) their points of view & agree with them indicidually yet they couldn't bridge the gap until later years while I was gone. I heard their arguments, but what was really the subject was a power struggle wo win the argument or have their own argument heard by the other. and agreed to. Later years I simply use the RWG for the name of this dynamic ... the right-wrong-game ... the only shortcut is the Golden Rule. Logic fails as GIGO! Pathos is just feelings & Ethos is simply the reputation & authority of the speaker which can be lost in an instant.


yes i agree .

i think we can go even deeper.  logic does not always fail as  GIGO ... it works in direct proportion to how well all parties involved know and agree precisely on what they are talking about.   Feelings are what conscioussness gives to us ... they are special ... they are our cherry on top ... me thinks they are not to be discounted with a "just" adverb. 

I was actually struck by the profundity of Ethan's equation, result=target/context.  This is the first time i have encountered it.   In a way it ties together this otherness stuff and the GIGO problems with communication.  Try it out in this example:  Let CS be the context in Seth's mind, and CM be the context in Marks's mind ... both contexts being relative to the target to be focused upon, the result is the actual focus achieved ...

Clearly result=target/CM is greater than result=target/(CM + CS)  .  There is obviously a bit of mathmatical calarificition needed in defining how two different context add together.  If CM = CS, then CM + CS is either CM or CS (doesn't matter which) ... not 2CM or 2CS. 

The solution is obviously communication such that CM approaches equality with CS. 

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