Vaporous Things - Beliefs

About: allegory of the cave

People band together & assert beliefs in many vaporous things & states of being. Science & Truth are NOT a matter of consensus.  That which is, IS!
If one person believes something that is NO compulsion for me to believe it without testing it out myself & I can just ignore it.



Tags

  1. cave of plato
  2. freedom
  3. bliss of buddha
  4. about rwg

Comments


Seth says
mark 2015-04-21 09:50:34 18267
seth 2015-04-21 09:46:54 18267
Yep, there is no "compulsion for you to believe", testing for yourself being a most reliable path to firm belief.  

Yet if you trust that a person will tell the truth, then that trust will contribute to your belief in their narrative.  Trust is part of the bond that we humans have with each other.  I will not discount it as some kind of "selfie aug" phenomena to be mocked ... rather it is a positive aspect of the functioning of the relationship we have to each other. 
Trust has nothing to do with the truth. Trust has nothing to do with science either. Argue that also to make your selfie feel better.


I have found that my trust in a person does contribute to my sense of truth in their narrative.  I have also observed others doing the same many times.  No argument here, just a record of my personal experience.

Mark de LA says
BTW, you need not believe PR & he is the first to say so. However, if you want to get closer to knowing what you are beyond selfies you can at least try out his methodology which is primarily religion free & ontologically mostly sound.


Seth says
mark 2015-04-21 10:00:50 18267
BTW, you need not believe PR & he is the first to say so. However, if you want to get closer to knowing what you are beyond selfies you can at least try out his methodology which is primarily religion free & ontologically mostly sound.


Yep, good example, i do not trust PR to tell me how to balance my self with my community.  For one thing that balance is an extremely personal and specific thing to me ... not something that i think should be quite so easily generalized that PR would know anything about it.  My balance there is part of his not knowing ... and i would trust him more if he would honestly acknowledge that in this context.

Mark de LA says
mark 2015-04-21 09:50:34 18267
seth 2015-04-21 09:46:54 18267
Yep, there is no "compulsion for you to believe", testing for yourself being a most reliable path to firm belief.  

Yet if you trust that a person will tell the truth, then that trust will contribute to your belief in their narrative.  Trust is part of the bond that we humans have with each other.  I will not discount it as some kind of "selfie aug" phenomena to be mocked ... rather it is a positive aspect of the functioning of the relationship we have to each other. 
Trust has nothing to do with the truth. Trust has nothing to do with science either. Argue that also to make your selfie feel better.

Maybe study some Peter Ralston and learn how beliefs are mere selfie fodder to create the selfie that most people maintain throughout life.


Seth says
i am assuming that "what i am beyond selfies" is the same thing as "what i am to my community" ... "community" here being a specific stand in for the rest of humanity. 

Mark de LA says
Yep, ignorance is bliss - not knowing used as a selfie agrandizement for bliss is just foolish!


Mark de LA says
seth 2015-04-22 08:17:31 18267
mark 2015-04-21 12:15:13 18267
Yep, ignorance is bliss - not knowing used as a selfie agrandizement for bliss is just foolish!


Not "agrandizement" ... rather "responsibility".  I, and I alone, can move and feel this little patch of the universe and must suffer the consequences of that movement.  I do not choose to deligate that responsibility to a standardized wisdom or a person who does not even know, or care that I exist.  Please ma, i would rather do it myself.
Kewl  ... that's what I'm saying ... standardized wisdom is your hang up, (probably affirms to you the uniqueness of your selfie (or not)) yet you believe other people around you & what you read & on the Internet,that is different from your childhood, for some reason which agrandizes your selfie uniqueness. I choose to look at all sources & choose the ones that go deeper & which I can verify in my own way. 



Seth says
mark 2015-04-21 12:15:13 18267
Yep, ignorance is bliss - not knowing used as a selfie agrandizement for bliss is just foolish!


Not "agrandizement" ... rather "responsibility".  I, and I alone, can move and feel this little patch of the universe and must suffer the consequences of that movement.  I do not choose to deligate that responsibility to a standardized wisdom or a person who does not even know, or care that I exist.  Please ma, i would rather do it myself.

Mark de LA says
I keep telling you that I don't care what beliefs you have and argue for.  They are just beliefs; not to be confused with that which IS nor any constraint on others including me.


Mark de LA says
seth 2015-04-22 22:10:15 18267
mark 2015-04-22 11:29:51 18267
seth 2015-04-22 11:03:04 18267
source: mark

the RWG is a distinction about human behavior which everyone except perhaps zen masters don't seem to get around playing. It is not a game to play if you really want to get to the heart of any real matter.
... ... i am in agreement there.  

... but am not quite sure that even zen masters are exempt ... i mean after all, merely asserting any belief which excludes other beliefs and implying that it must be true to other minds as well is still RWG. 
Besides being rwg the statement doesn't apply to zen masters who are into direct experiences & not beliefs.


hmmm ... so zen masters don't tell about the experiences they call "direct"?  .... wierd .... so how do you even know about them?
rewording is inaccurate.
There are clues.  If someone tells you the steps to get from a to f & you follow them & have an experience you will know. If you are committed to finding the truth & can get rid of all the bullshit along the way you may find out what was being talked about.  Of course if you want to make up your own path & ignore those who have gone before then Good Luck!


Mark de LA says
seth 2015-04-22 10:17:10 18267
mark 2015-04-22 09:46:59 18267
seth 2015-04-22 09:36:54 18267
Incidentally, given any change, any movement, there is almost always a reaction force that works against that change.  That is kind of just the way the ball bounces ... er, literally, LOL.  

The only way that there is no opposition, is for there to be no change.  Wishing away opposition ... seeing it disappear ... implies doing nothing.   Perhaps that is the bliss of the Buddha.  Not mine, dear bro, not mine.  But that is the only thing that makes any sense to me in what you giggled about above. 
Doesn't matter. I grok the Tao. The RWG is a little more reactive though.
Keep on missing my statement above
"I keep telling you that I don't care what beliefs you have and argue for.  They are just beliefs; not to be confused with that which IS nor any constraint on others including me.
"

Well yes, the Tao takes no point of view, apparently those of you who worship RWG do ... but maybe you claim you don't ... i never have heard you clarify that. 

And why is what you care (or not care) about what i believe even in question here?  I say the things i believe to you because i enjoy reading them back and listening to them ring true.  Sorry, but  whether they ring true over there is quite otherness to me ... but i am always listening for why they would not also ring true to you, from your point of view.  I call that useful dialogue.  So i am always a bit miffed when you keep repeating that you don't care about what rings true to me ... why do you keep saying that to me?  ... what effect are you trying to produce over here by continually saying something to me that you must know i already am quite poignantly aware of?
Good question - I may contemplate it for a while as should YOU! 
I do not worship the RWG - the RWG is a distinction about human behavior which everyone except perhaps zen masters don't seem to get around playing. It is not a game to play if you really want to get to the heart of any real matter.


Mark de LA says
seth 2015-04-22 09:08:52 18267
mark 2015-04-22 08:56:08 18267
seth 2015-04-22 08:47:35 18267
mark 2015-04-22 08:30:45 18267
seth 2015-04-22 08:17:31 18267
mark 2015-04-21 12:15:13 18267
Yep, ignorance is bliss - not knowing used as a selfie agrandizement for bliss is just foolish!


Not "agrandizement" ... rather "responsibility".  I, and I alone, can move and feel this little patch of the universe and must suffer the consequences of that movement.  I do not choose to deligate that responsibility to a standardized wisdom or a person who does not even know, or care that I exist.  Please ma, i would rather do it myself.
Kewl  ... that's what I'm saying ... standardized wisdom is your hang up, (probably affirms to you the uniqueness of your selfie (or not)) yet you believe other people around you & what you read & on the Internet,that is different from your childhood, for some reason which agrandizes your selfie uniqueness. I choose to look at all sources & choose the ones that go deeper & which I can verify in my own way. 



Well if asserting my God given freedom and taking responsibility for it is to be considered "my hangup", then i plead guilty.   the rest of what you said about me is just plain false.   that one sentence at the end where you spoke for yourself was the only sentence that rang true in your paragraph. 
That's what a selfie would say It is the opposition that is the hangup & a selfie.


I don't know what you are saying here so loudly.   I do say I am free and take responsibility for the consequences of what I do ... there is no "would" about it.  Of course i also know that there are limits to my freedom ... but that is kind of just a different topic.  What "opposition" are you talking about?  Yours?  People in my group who oppose what i do?  Of course there is always opposition ... there are always consequences ... what has that to do with my freedom?  Please speak clearly and about your own experiences for most of mine you know nothing about.
I speak clearly most of the time - there are apparently things you do not want to hear that cloud your understanding. I don't know what taking responsibility for my freedom means to anyone. I think more in terms of taking responsibility of my actions, & my word.  Opposition to your father's occultism is still a selfie for you.  A selfie is my munge of a popular iPhone (& others) practice munged with the notion of a self which we all have but think is real & is only a semblance - more like a double which is made up of all the things we think & believe & experience in order to survive as a self (I) - it is a survival of personality thingy. There is a distinction there between the (I) & the (self). Some don't want to look at that distinction. Some probably would probably deny it.


Mark de LA says
seth 2015-04-22 09:36:54 18267
Incidentally, given any change, any movement, there is almost always a reaction force that works against that change.  That is kind of just the way the ball bounces ... er, literally, LOL.  

The only way that there is no opposition, is for there to be no change.  Wishing away opposition ... seeing it disappear ... implies doing nothing.   Perhaps that is the bliss of the Buddha.  Not mine, dear bro, not mine.  But that is the only thing that makes any sense to me in what you giggled about above. 
Doesn't matter. I grok the Tao. The RWG is a little more reactive though.
Keep on missing my statement above
"I keep telling you that I don't care what beliefs you have and argue for.  They are just beliefs; not to be confused with that which IS nor any constraint on others including me.
"

Seth says
mark 2015-04-22 11:29:51 18267
seth 2015-04-22 11:03:04 18267
source: mark

the RWG is a distinction about human behavior which everyone except perhaps zen masters don't seem to get around playing. It is not a game to play if you really want to get to the heart of any real matter.
... ... i am in agreement there.  

... but am not quite sure that even zen masters are exempt ... i mean after all, merely asserting any belief which excludes other beliefs and implying that it must be true to other minds as well is still RWG. 
Besides being rwg the statement doesn't apply to zen masters who are into direct experiences & not beliefs.


hmmm ... so zen masters don't tell about the experiences they call "direct"?  .... wierd .... so how do you even know about them?

Mark de LA says
seth 2015-04-22 10:41:38 18267
mark 2015-04-22 09:42:28 18267
seth 2015-04-22 09:08:52 18267
mark 2015-04-22 08:56:08 18267
seth 2015-04-22 08:47:35 18267
mark 2015-04-22 08:30:45 18267
seth 2015-04-22 08:17:31 18267
mark 2015-04-21 12:15:13 18267
Yep, ignorance is bliss - not knowing used as a selfie agrandizement for bliss is just foolish!


Not "agrandizement" ... rather "responsibility".  I, and I alone, can move and feel this little patch of the universe and must suffer the consequences of that movement.  I do not choose to deligate that responsibility to a standardized wisdom or a person who does not even know, or care that I exist.  Please ma, i would rather do it myself.
Kewl  ... that's what I'm saying ... standardized wisdom is your hang up, (probably affirms to you the uniqueness of your selfie (or not)) yet you believe other people around you & what you read & on the Internet,that is different from your childhood, for some reason which agrandizes your selfie uniqueness. I choose to look at all sources & choose the ones that go deeper & which I can verify in my own way. 



Well if asserting my God given freedom and taking responsibility for it is to be considered "my hangup", then i plead guilty.   the rest of what you said about me is just plain false.   that one sentence at the end where you spoke for yourself was the only sentence that rang true in your paragraph. 
That's what a selfie would say It is the opposition that is the hangup & a selfie.


I don't know what you are saying here so loudly.   I do say I am free and take responsibility for the consequences of what I do ... there is no "would" about it.  Of course i also know that there are limits to my freedom ... but that is kind of just a different topic.  What "opposition" are you talking about?  Yours?  People in my group who oppose what i do?  Of course there is always opposition ... there are always consequences ... what has that to do with my freedom?  Please speak clearly and about your own experiences for most of mine you know nothing about.
I speak clearly most of the time - there are apparently things you do not want to hear that cloud your understanding. I don't know what taking responsibility for my freedom means to anyone. I think more in terms of taking responsibility of my actions, & my word.  Opposition to your father's occultism is still a selfie for you.  A selfie is my munge of a popular iPhone (& others) practice munged with the notion of a self which we all have but think is real & is only a semblance - more like a double which is made up of all the things we think & believe & experience in order to survive as a self (I) - it is a survival of personality thingy. There is a distinction there between the (I) & the (self). Some don't want to look at that distinction. Some probably would probably deny it.


Well "taking responsibility for my freedom" means the same as "taking responsibility of my actions & my word" ... exactly the same thing said with different words.

It is true i have rejected many of the beliefs of occultism and even of the nature of "the spiritual world".  That rejection is part of who I am.  No "semblance" about it. 

Playing a game of your beliefs are right (or just what *IS*) and my beliefs are wrong (or "semblances") is RWG, plain and simple ... and not very useful now for either of us, imho.  I think it would be more useful if we respected each other's beliefs and concentrated instead on how they can interact. 
Yep, rwg is just the semblance maintainer program of the selfie acknowledged or otherwise.
Doestoevsky wrote without occultism about The Double, but his was more alcoholic.  Beliefs are just beliefs; of value to the believer only. Some puff around trying to spread theirs, some take them for gospel - ordering their lives with them & some are on a path away from them - as  I am.


Mark de LA says
seth 2015-04-22 11:03:04 18267
source: mark

the RWG is a distinction about human behavior which everyone except perhaps zen masters don't seem to get around playing. It is not a game to play if you really want to get to the heart of any real matter.
... ... i am in agreement there.  

... but am not quite sure that even zen masters are exempt ... i mean after all, merely asserting any belief which excludes other beliefs and implying that it must be true to other minds as well is still RWG. 
Besides being rwg the statement doesn't apply to zen masters who are into direct experiences & not beliefs.


Mark de LA says
seth 2015-04-23 06:53:36 18267
mark 2015-04-23 00:43:14 18267
seth 2015-04-22 22:10:15 18267
mark 2015-04-22 11:29:51 18267
seth 2015-04-22 11:03:04 18267
source: mark

the RWG is a distinction about human behavior which everyone except perhaps zen masters don't seem to get around playing. It is not a game to play if you really want to get to the heart of any real matter.
... ... i am in agreement there.  

... but am not quite sure that even zen masters are exempt ... i mean after all, merely asserting any belief which excludes other beliefs and implying that it must be true to other minds as well is still RWG. 
Besides being rwg the statement doesn't apply to zen masters who are into direct experiences & not beliefs.


hmmm ... so zen masters don't tell about the experiences they call "direct"?  .... wierd .... so how do you even know about them?
rewording is inaccurate.
There are clues.  If someone tells you the steps to get from a to f & you follow them & have an experience you will know. If you are committed to finding the truth & can get rid of all the bullshit along the way you may find out what was being talked about.  Of course if you want to make up your own path & ignore those who have gone before then Good Luck!


So did you follow the steps and have the direct experiences and do you now know the truth?


Yep! - some like "who am I" have many depths not a single answer - not something that can be expressed in words. (otherwise all the master would have to do is say those words & there would be no need for the contemplation, eh?)

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