are space and time an illusion? | iflscience

re this post and this one with her and nate.

... and what is not an illusion? ... might it be  "shared consequences" ...

 or perhaps better refereed to simply as "what is happening"

Anyway what i am calling "consequences" is not necessarily distinguishble from what the guy in the movie is calling "causality" ... nor what GW spits out of his mouth as "Malkuth" and what has been frequently refered to as physical reality

Let me be clear about what i am saying here:  it is not an illusion ... it is our very life itself.   Consequences, causality, Malkuth and physical reality are not an illusion.  And to the extent to which  we share them specifically, is the extent to which we humans live.  


  1. illusion
  2. shared consequences
  3. consequences
  4. time
  5. item 17405
  6. shareable
  7. energy
  8. brudershaft
  9. nietzsche


Seth says
seth 2015-05-19 09:59:20 18271

Regrding energy ... what is the most energetic being that you know of?  

To my knowledge it is  the sun.   It just so happens that the sun has the most consequences for our human lives.  I take that as evidence that energy can be defined as sharing consequences.  The more consequences are shared, the more energy is present.

Seth says
Consequences are not the same as shared consequences.  Shared consequences being a subclass or part-of all consequences ... the distinction being that humans share them.  For example a consequence that bites me in the ass and also bits you in the ass is a consequence that we share ... alternatively a consequence that just bits me in the ass but does not bite you, is not a particular consequence that we share.  Even more specifically whenever i sit on the toilet in the bathroom next to our bedroom, i have an urge to go lie down afterward.  That is a consequence that obtains for me and me alone ... you do not share it.  Oh i can tell you a story about it, but the consequence itself, for you, does not obtain ... when you visit a toilet near your bedroom you probably will not have an urge to go lie down afterward ... no, that consequence is just my private affair. 

Seth says
Eiaming 2015-05-20 10:44:03 18323
seth 2015-05-20 10:32:00 18323
Eiam 2015-05-20 07:36:38 18323
seth 2015-05-20 07:31:50 18323
Eiam 2015-05-20 07:25:25 18323
... not enough here to make a religion as you have out of it, though ...

not trying to make a religion ... just trying to grock the situations which obtain.  especially those which we as humans share ... and the importance of them for "bruderschaft".
 I think Nietzsche did a better job of it.

Oh ... what did Nietzsche say about the brudershaft of sharing consequences?
Nothing ... that I know of He switched his point of view in the middle of his philosophical life to his superman ideals or selfie. I'm not using your brudershaft word today.

Not my word ... I got it from your article ...
source: Brotherhood and the fight for survival

It is our task today to speak about two soul contents, one of which is a wonderful and inner ideal called Brotherhood [Although “brotherhood” is a reasonable translation of the German, it is not totally satisfactory. There is no suitable gender-neutral form, “sisterhood” doesn't even appear in the standard Microsoft spelling dictionary and using it requires the combination “brother/sisterhood” or “brotherhood/sisterhood” neither of which reads easily. I have therefore elected to translate, “bruderschaft” as “mutual help,” which works well throughout this lecture.] or Mutual Help, the other, which we meet especially in daily life, is the survival of the fittest — Mutual Help and the Fight for Survival. Those of you who concern themselves even a little with our Spiritual Scientific Movement know that our first aim is to form the core of a mutual help which is founded on an all embracing love for people, without regard for race, sex, creed, or profession. Thus the Anthroposophical Society [This lecture was actually given under the auspices of the Theosophical Society. We have changed this to the Anthroposophical Society since Rudolf Steiner's work continued in that organization unchanged in content and intent.] itself puts this principle of an all-embracing mutual help as the spearhead of its movement, as the most important of its ideals. With this it has shown that it is one of those cultural streams, which above all are necessary today, in which this extensive ethical striving for mutual help is seen closely connected with what altogether is the aim of man's evolution.

Seth says
source: mark

RS was lecturing to a group of people who had a healthy respect for the Occult too!  No respect for a spiritual world then Darwin takes over.
I'm going to defer responding to that until i can study what RS actually said about it in his lecture ... i seem to remember him going into it at some length.   My knee jerk impression is that he is saying the same thing i am ... except your use of the word "spiritual" does not refer to the same thing as mine does, nor necessarily what Steiner's does.   Which, of course, gets us back to grocking,  "what can be shared"?

Seth says
Eiaming 2015-05-20 13:11:41 18323
Then too quantum entanglement, being exclusive of time & space seems to suggest that cause may not be linear. But you don't need that to question cause being linear. Watch a carnival magic act & you may believe all kinds of things. Cause may just be in your mind.

Yep, that is the kind of train of thought that is used to justify thinking that the foundation for human interaction is unimportant.  Some patterns are just in one's mind ...  yet some are shared by other people.  The trick is to know the difference.

Seth says
Eiaming 2015-05-20 11:53:05 18323
seth 2015-05-20 11:36:29 18323
Here is an example of a simple consequence:  A causes B.   

Then, except when traveling near the speed of light, A necessarily precedes B.
You are assuming your conclusion. Not logically sound.

Okay.  The presumption and the conclusion say the same thing.   To assume that A causes B, is to notice that A always precedes B. 

The point here is that these consequences exist ... they are not an illusion ... and they exist apart from a mind that notices them. 

All such patterns are not that way ... some are only beauty in the eye ... but the ones that actually exist apart from a mind are the ones that are going to bite you in the ass (as it were).  Those are the ones which we can share ... one way or another. Wish those away, as those people who tell the story that the material world is just an illusion, or who down grade the world because it is not Heaven, and you have wished away the foundations of human interaction.

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