muslim immigrants smash & urinate on virgin mary statue in italy



(1) "Representing something makes it shareable." -- Bozo Faust

Conversely that which has not been represented, is not shareable.

Are there any contra-factual examples?

seems that something can be and still not be *represented* in any mind ... it just is .  once represented things change in a distinct way.  this is experiential, not conceptual.  i conclude it by watching things that have not been represented in my mind and how they change once they are represented in my mind.  i also think the same goes for society at large.  almost necessarily.   if there is no representation of something (whether it is or not), then there is no possible way that it can be shared. 

if you have experienced a contra example, i would like to know what it is. 

What is the connection between "representing something changes it and makes it sharable" and the "Islamic State" destroying historic monuments?

part of this might be discussed on this facebook item.

source:in my comment on facebook

ISIS is destroying cultural artifacts because they presume that will prevent us from sharing what they represent. I'm thinking, would they be absolutely completely successful in destroying all representations of Christianity and Western Culture, then in fact they could establish the Islamic State that they intend.

This connection between our representations and what actually is experienced is a fact of our human predicament. I don't think it can be just wished away.


Incidentally there is the ancient wisdom stated in the 2nd commandment, "Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image".  ... now here comes the complexity ... the deeper proposition which this item is all about:   The old wisdom should only be narrowly interpreted ... for we cannot share that which we cannot represent (1). 

Tags

  1. representation
  2. shareable
  3. is
  4. isis
  5. bozo sayings
  6. no fallacy zone
  7. item 18348
  8. consciousness

Comments


Seth says
seth 2015-05-26 03:57:47 18354
Eiamistic 2015-05-25 10:08:37 18354
seth 2015-05-25 09:10:39 18354
incidentally if some mind does not know of something, then it is not represented in that mind. 

we really should be able to agree on that simple thing.

Nope! There is consciousness which transcends representation.


Well individual humans sharing their representations may well be all that is necessary for human consciousness to happen.

That is the proposition that needs to be tested here.



Eiamistic says
When I was a child I listened to the adults arguing & noticed that often they were NOT talking about the same things even though they must have been arguing about something.  Nowadays, as politics, religion, this blog & other conversations go, evolution of dialogues hasn't shown much improvement. This one is no exception. As an adult, though, I have developed a sense both withface-to-face & in written & other forms of language that tells me whether another groks what I am talking about. I get from you that the feeling of your just using my comments as a touchstone or trigger for material previously running around in your mind. In other words you are talking about something else. I have been talking about consciousness. There are special words in English which consciousness grasps differently than concrete objects such as: NOW, I, nothing, IS, existence, space, .....
I say there is no representation for those words. One has to have a special or focused consciousness to grok these; the word grok being invented by Heinlein because he needed it to describe such consciousness.
I put no limits on shareability, your current buzzword, cuz there is no need to, why? The closest thing I got to shareability is my post on 18358.  I wonder if you can get to what part is representation & where is that that was shareable & what is it? Music is one of the few arts which has to be alive (performed) to experience, not like sculpture, poetry, painting, architecture, & even drama which are experienced from the residue. Such being as is in music causes me to believe that it is a portal, medium & model for a better world of people interacting.


Seth says
seth 2015-05-26 05:07:52 18348
seth 2015-05-26 05:05:34 18354
Eiamistic 2015-05-25 09:06:13 18354
seth 2015-05-25 09:02:39 18354
Eiamistic 2015-05-25 08:53:54 18354
IS & existence are NOT things, BTW.

most ontologies have a top element under which everything else falls.  that is the sense in which i use the word "thing".  we have discussed that before.   so call it a "is-ness" or call it a process or call it watever.  nothing in what i said changes, just the words that would be used.

So you missed the point & relegated IS to something in a book , the Internet, or your mind

Well the only difference between a representation in a individual human's mind and a representation in a personal conversation or a book or the internet or on the stage or in a movie or on TV is which mind is involved. 

And yes i get that you are referring to an existence experienced only during a moment called "NOW" which has no possible other representation and that you are referring to that as "IS".  My point is that experience must necessarily remain your private affair.  It cannot enter my consciousness unless you can find a way to give me a representation of it. 


... but sure you can wave at it ... and i can play that i am waving at the same thing ....

hi little thingey



Eiamistic says
I still prefer thinking about someone carving a cartoon of the prophet on the cunt of the statue every time I see this picture.


Eiamistic says
seth 2015-05-26 15:38:21 18348
Well thanks for responding directly about this subject,  i do appreciate this kind of dialogue.

I am actually amazed how much here we have already agreed upon ... for example that people talk to each other but frequently are talking about totally different things.  And yes we seem both of us to have arrived at the belief that what you are calling "consciousness" is not the same thing as what i am calling "consciousness" ... and, i might add, neither or our understandings is necessarily the same as a common sense understanding ... nor, for that matter, the same belief held by people who have studied consciousness in detail like David Chalmers or  Peter Ralston.

Nevertheless my intent here has been to arrive at a shared understanding of this ambiguous thing called by various people "consciousness".  I think, if we cannot be on the same page at least we can arrive at side-by-side pages where each page is noted with its supporting ontological assumptions.

More perhaps later ... at the moment i want to just bask in the light that we actually can see things together .
I hold things pretty much as Peter Ralston does as far as he goes which is mostly in the Zen tradition.

Seth says
Well thanks for responding directly about this subject,  i do appreciate this kind of dialogue.

I am actually amazed how much here we have already agreed upon ... for example that people talk to each other but frequently are talking about totally different things.  And yes we seem both of us to have arrived at the belief that what you are calling "consciousness" is not the same thing as what i am calling "consciousness" ... and, i might add, neither or our understandings is necessarily the same as a common sense understanding ... nor, for that matter, the same belief held by people who have studied consciousness in detail like David Chalmers or  Peter Ralston.

Nevertheless my intent here has been to arrive at a shared understanding of this ambiguous thing called by various people "consciousness".  I think, if we cannot be on the same page at least we can arrive at side-by-side pages where each page is noted with its supporting ontological assumptions.

More perhaps later ... at the moment i want to just bask in the light that we actually can see things together .

Seth says
seth 2015-05-27 11:10:40 17314
Eiamistic 2015-05-27 10:14:41 17314
seth 2015-05-27 10:08:07 17314

Well i think GW touched on my perspective on consciousness when he said : "CONSCIOUSNESS is awareness of the part which self takes in production of a judgment either as a cause or effect = cause when I act on another ...".   In other words one must necessarily have interaction for consciousness to happen.  One must have awareness of an interaction for consciousness to exist. 

That perspective is very unlike PR's when he says : "I invite you to consider the possibility that you can be conscious beyond, or independent of, or prior to, any awareness or perception.  I also want to invite you to consider that your very nature is of that kind".   Here consciousness takes on an existence apart from an interaction and the awareness of it. 

And yes i realize that you hold to PR's view that when we talk of consciousness we can be referring to something quite apart from any human interaction ... something that we can close our eyes in private isolation and experience.  I don't doubt that such a private experience exists for i have myself experienced it, i just don't call it consciousness.
... must be unconsciousness then!

yep agreed (finally figured it out ... had to ignore your "" to grock it).  

You have particular interpretations of your private experiences and dramas.  I do not have the same interpretations of mine.  So, according to your standards, you can honestly call me "unconscious"


Yet me, i am aware of the effect i have on others, and the effect they have on me.  that awareness informs what i do.  By that standard, i frequently find you "unconscious"
 

i actually think this marks a milestone in our communication.  First we recognized that we were talking about different things, then above we recognize what each of those things are not.  

Say the we were talking about diseases (and yes i know that consciousness is not a disease - please don't go there).  

Originally we assume that we are both suffering from the same disease, then we give up that assumption and examine the possibility that we have two separate diseases, then we list some symptoms of the two distinct diseases, and then voilĂ , we recognize that i don't have your disease, and you don't have mine. 

So when you said i am unconscious, and i acknowledge that, i finally finally realize that what you are calling "consciousness", i don't have.  Then i notice that what I am calling "consciousness", you don't have.   

If you take away the presumption that your disease is the one and only preferred one, then you should be able to see the milestone in our communication.  If you can't give up that presumption, well then, of course, you will see this as only the same old boring RWG. 

Seth says
source: mark

There is a point in a nested conversation where it is so munged up that (for me) there is no value in continuing it.
... totally understandable.  

But, Mark, if you don't want to delve into a subject, just walk away and ignore it.   On my blog, i will not allow you to piss on it with no substantive contribution and then smugly walk away.  If you loose interest, or cannot go any deeper, just don't respond at all.  But certainly don't try to put my last understanding in the context of your negative emotions about it.   I've been enforcing that rule on my blog for a long time here.   I find it strange that you still keep insulting my mind in my writings and somehow think you are not being just as ass hole to me.

Seth says
Eiammymind 2015-05-31 09:01:42 18348
seth 2015-05-31 08:28:50 18348
source: mark

There is a point in a nested conversation where it is so munged up that (for me) there is no value in continuing it.
... totally understandable.  

But, Mark, if you don't want to delve into a subject, just walk away and ignore it.   On my blog, i will not allow you to piss on it with no substantive contribution and then smugly walk away.  If you loose interest, or cannot go any deeper, just don't respond at all.  But certainly don't try to put my last understanding in the context of your negative emotions about it.   I've been enforcing that rule on my blog for a long time here.   I find it strange that you still keep insulting my mind in my writings and somehow think you are not being just as ass hole to me.


...  it is interenting to note the effect your response (which i would normally have just deleted) had on me.   It informed me that you know that you are being and ass hole to me ... quite so.   I think i will let it stand, and respond thusly, telling you now that i know that you know that you are being an ass hole intentionally ...well at least in this case.  I do, however, wonder if you are always quite so aware of your intentions and effect.

Eiammymind says
seth 2015-05-31 08:28:50 18348
source: mark

There is a point in a nested conversation where it is so munged up that (for me) there is no value in continuing it.
... totally understandable.  

But, Mark, if you don't want to delve into a subject, just walk away and ignore it.   On my blog, i will not allow you to piss on it with no substantive contribution and then smugly walk away.  If you loose interest, or cannot go any deeper, just don't respond at all.  But certainly don't try to put my last understanding in the context of your negative emotions about it.   I've been enforcing that rule on my blog for a long time here.   I find it strange that you still keep insulting my mind in my writings and somehow think you are not being just as ass hole to me.


Eiammymind says
seth 2015-05-31 07:41:56 18348
Eiamistic 2015-05-30 08:48:40 18348
seth 2015-05-30 08:16:21 18348
Eiamistic 2015-05-30 07:13:29 18348
seth 2015-05-28 07:34:08 18348
Eiamistic 2015-05-28 06:58:53 18348
Yeah, whatever ... everything is conscious, but not at the same degree - rocks versus Einstein versus dogs versus Buddha .. sometimes an Ego does not want to grok that for the sake of the game & selfies ,, no problem!



Well according to my consciousness syndrome, i would judge a rock is conscious to the degree to which it interacts.  For example if it crushes me, or i crush it and hurt my hand.  According to my consciousness syndrome there is no secret property of the rock itself that i could call "conscious" ... rather the consciousness of the rock is a property of the interaction of it to its surroundings. 

If the rock was totally isolated from everything else in the universe, would you still consider the rock had any degree whatsoever of what you call "consciousness" ?
Although probably etymologically correct I normally think of syndrome as related to medical or psychological diseases & consciousness is not one of those things.  Also technically the word syndrome agrees with what I call munge
If there is any premium in your selfie-mind stuff on being understood you might hold things in common usage.  That having been said,
consciousness is NOT a munge but a fundamental category of being. Even rocks have being.
If you wanted to go occult you might ponder the Adam & Eve story & grok that they ate the apple & acquired the disease of knowledge which separated them from God & paved the evolutionary wave with some mischief.


 I use "syndrome" here to mean a pattern of occurrence or characteristics ...  like in sense #2 in the dictionary:  "a group of related or coincident things, events, actions, etc.".  

i thought we established above
that we are referring to different things when we use the word "consciousness".   Yet we can still continue to delve deeper into the matter,  but we have to start talking about these two different things as if they actually were different things.   To do that we could describe the characteristics that we know obtain for each of those different syndromes.  Then i suspect we may will notice that both of these beings (as you call them) exist.  

For example:  apparently your pattern of occurrences requires a "single" event which caused it to start for the whole human race ... mine does not.  Mine assumes that it is a pattern that evolved through changing interaction ... with those changes which worked better getting sustained in consequences which could be shared.   I listed another characteristic above where our different things vary from each other.
OK ... lets see ... two different people talking about 2 different things in their own mind not listening to each other & I'm supposed to think that is going to be fruitful .  BTW, using two different vocabularies - excellent prognosis. PS: your conclusion-munge I bolded is your own - completely - abstract & occult & understood if ever only unto you. No was evolution implied either in mine.


Well carefully listening to each other, even knowing about the different assumptions in our different minds, is when a new possibility for a wider understanding actually happens.

You say, "No was evolution implied either in mine",  i am having expreme problems in figuring out what that means to you. 

In the (metaphoric) story of Adam and Eve, knowledge and free will just happened for the whole human race ... there is no evolution told about in the story ... no incremental change upon change arriving at where we are today.  Is that incremental change upon change part of your beliefs?
There is a point in a nested conversation where it is so munged up that (for me) there is no value in continuing it.  I am there with this one. Evidence is the degree of nesting. F2f might be different. The bolded part of your contribution above is when I went tilt (in your language).  The NLP simplicity of "the meaning of your communication is the response you get" might be a good subject for contemplation.
of course you missed the point of what I am bolding in blue this time.

Seth says
Eiamistic 2015-05-30 08:48:40 18348
seth 2015-05-30 08:16:21 18348
Eiamistic 2015-05-30 07:13:29 18348
seth 2015-05-28 07:34:08 18348
Eiamistic 2015-05-28 06:58:53 18348
Yeah, whatever ... everything is conscious, but not at the same degree - rocks versus Einstein versus dogs versus Buddha .. sometimes an Ego does not want to grok that for the sake of the game & selfies ,, no problem!



Well according to my consciousness syndrome, i would judge a rock is conscious to the degree to which it interacts.  For example if it crushes me, or i crush it and hurt my hand.  According to my consciousness syndrome there is no secret property of the rock itself that i could call "conscious" ... rather the consciousness of the rock is a property of the interaction of it to its surroundings. 

If the rock was totally isolated from everything else in the universe, would you still consider the rock had any degree whatsoever of what you call "consciousness" ?
Although probably etymologically correct I normally think of syndrome as related to medical or psychological diseases & consciousness is not one of those things.  Also technically the word syndrome agrees with what I call munge
If there is any premium in your selfie-mind stuff on being understood you might hold things in common usage.  That having been said,
consciousness is NOT a munge but a fundamental category of being. Even rocks have being.
If you wanted to go occult you might ponder the Adam & Eve story & grok that they ate the apple & acquired the disease of knowledge which separated them from God & paved the evolutionary wave with some mischief.


 I use "syndrome" here to mean a pattern of occurrence or characteristics ...  like in sense #2 in the dictionary:  "a group of related or coincident things, events, actions, etc.".  

i thought we established above
that we are referring to different things when we use the word "consciousness".   Yet we can still continue to delve deeper into the matter,  but we have to start talking about these two different things as if they actually were different things.   To do that we could describe the characteristics that we know obtain for each of those different syndromes.  Then i suspect we may will notice that both of these beings (as you call them) exist.  

For example:  apparently your pattern of occurrences requires a "single" event which caused it to start for the whole human race ... mine does not.  Mine assumes that it is a pattern that evolved through changing interaction ... with those changes which worked better getting sustained in consequences which could be shared.   I listed another characteristic above where our different things vary from each other.
OK ... lets see ... two different people talking about 2 different things in their own mind not listening to each other & I'm supposed to think that is going to be fruitful .  BTW, using two different vocabularies - excellent prognosis. PS: your conclusion-munge I bolded is your own - completely - abstract & occult & understood if ever only unto you. No was evolution implied either in mine.


Well carefully listening to each other, even knowing about the different assumptions in our different minds, is when a new possibility for a wider understanding actually happens.

You say, "No was evolution implied either in mine",  i am having extreme problems in figuring out what that means to you. 

In the (metaphoric) story of Adam and Eve, knowledge and free will just happened for the whole human race ... there is no evolution told about in the story ... no incremental change upon change arriving at where we are today.  Is that incremental change upon change not part of your beliefs?

Seth says
source: mark's emphasis of his statement

"OK ... lets see ... two different people talking about 2 different things in their own mind not listening to each other & I'm supposed to think that is going to be fruitful .  "
I did not miss this, rather i responded to it by denying its very essence ...
"Well carefully listening to each other, even knowing about the different assumptions in our different minds, is when a new possibility for a wider understanding actually happens"
Do you not find my statement true?

... BTW, using two different vocabularies - excellent prognosis. PS: your conclusion-munge I bolded is your own
This one i did not miss, but chose not to respond to it because it was just plane false.  I am using standard English vocabulary and the usuals interpertations of those words.  I can only assume that you are as well, with a few exceptions like "mung", but i know what that word means to you by virtue of how you use it. 


See Also

  1. Thought A plate of grapefruit with 219 viewings related by tag "representation".
  2. Thought Interesting Pages on G+ with 215 viewings related by tag "consciousness".
  3. Thought About Seth with 205 viewings related by tag "representation".
  4. Thought Wht is consciousness? with 172 viewings related by tag "consciousness".
  5. Thought Agreements are vunerable to lies with 126 viewings related by tag "consciousness".
  6. Thought Tools in my peculair bag ... with 101 viewings related by tag "representation".
  7. Thought Consciousness as "transactional relative relivance" reares it's ugly head for the first time here with 90 viewings related by tag "consciousness".
  8. Thought Why we represent ... with 85 viewings related by tag "representation".
  9. Thought Are you introducing a non-existant term? with 65 viewings related by tag "representation".
  10. Thought Representation and Representing with 59 viewings related by tag "representation".
  11. Thought War in the Middle East with 51 viewings related by tag "isis".
  12. Thought Representing something changes my awareness of it with 42 viewings related by tag "representation".
  13. Thought A recognition ... with 35 viewings related by tag "consciousness".
  14. Thought Socrates Cafe July 12 2017 with 28 viewings related by tag "consciousness".
  15. Thought Representation all the way down with 28 viewings related by tag "representation".
  16. Thought Consciousness Work with 24 viewings related by tag "consciousness".
  17. Thought Connections with 22 viewings related by tag "bozo sayings".
  18. Thought about: Representationalism with 22 viewings related by tag "representation".
  19. Thought Conscience with 18 viewings related by tag "consciousness".
  20. Thought A most Fascinating Conversation with 16 viewings related by tag "consciousness".
  21. Thought Fascinating Consciousness with 15 viewings related by tag "consciousness".
  22. Thought Divided Souls in Consciousness with 15 viewings related by tag "consciousness".
  23. Thought One Person's Idea of Consciousness with 14 viewings related by tag "consciousness".
  24. Thought about: how to use parallel realities - shift into an alternate universe! - youtube with 13 viewings related by tag "bozo sayings".
  25. Thought Contemplation with 10 viewings related by tag "consciousness".
  26. Thought Esoteric Cosmology with 6 viewings related by tag "consciousness".
  27. Thought ISIS with 5 viewings related by tag "isis".
  28. Thought life is gangly ... it hairs away from you with 5 viewings related by tag "bozo sayings".
  29. Thought Awareness, Attention is the function of the Ego with 5 viewings related by tag "bozo sayings".
  30. Thought Consciousness with 4 viewings related by tag "consciousness".
  31. Thought Towards a recognition ... with 4 viewings related by tag "bozo sayings".
  32. Thought Different types of Facts with 4 viewings related by tag "consciousness".
  33. Thought Will of Consciousness with 4 viewings related by tag "consciousness".
  34. Thought about: mark's inquiry on facebook with 4 viewings related by tag "consciousness".
  35. Thought Waiting for fireworks at Ruston Freedom Celebration with a new "live camera" with 3 viewings related by tag "representation".
  36. Thought Bozos Discovery with 3 viewings related by tag "bozo sayings".
  37. Thought Chinese Brush and ink supplies with 3 viewings related by tag "representation".
  38. Thought Facebook Linguistics with 2 viewings related by tag "consciousness".
  39. Thought Answers from Peter on Consciousness with 2 viewings related by tag "consciousness".
  40. Thought about: provoked by the meme, Know Yourself with 2 viewings related by tag "bozo sayings".
  41. Thought Dualism with 2 viewings related by tag "representation".
  42. Thought about: pursuing consciousness with 2 viewings related by tag "consciousness".
  43. Thought Multi Level Consciousnesses with 2 viewings related by tag "consciousness".
  44. Thought IS Consciousness aware of itself? with 2 viewings related by tag "consciousness".
  45. Thought about: REpresentation - comment 57743 - comment 57813 with 2 viewings related by tag "consciousness".
  46. Thought Cooperate vs Fight (and/or) Love vs Death with 2 viewings related by tag "bozo sayings".
  47. Thought Being awake is being conscious with 2 viewings related by tag "consciousness".
  48. Thought nuff said with 2 viewings related by tag "bozo sayings".
  49. Thought The Hooded Cowards Butchers Chop (Gang) with 1 viewings related by tag "isis".
  50. Thought Tagging Is A Better Memory Substitute Than Hyperlinking with 1 viewings related by tag "bozo sayings".