LOA is not an excuse to blame the victim


I have just declared this item a no fallacy zone. 

If person A completely manifests all that he experiences ... and person B completely manifests all that he experiences, then person A never ever senses person B.  and visa versa.  It is only when the one can effect the other that anything between them actually happens.  LOA seems oblivious to that fact in their story.  LOA is all about attracting what excites one individual (you) ... which is fine ... but incomplete.

Life is not something in service of just one individual experience. 

dissonance is not something just in the eye of one beholder.  it is a fallacy to say to another that if they percieve dissonance, it is their fault, and they should just change their perception to harmony.  especially if you are involved in creating that dissonance.   that is like hitting somone and then saying to them, you made me do it.   that is denying your effect on others.  i think this is the part of LOA that needs to be changed. 

To deny someone's effect on you, is as much of a error, as denying your effect on them.  Focusing on what excites you will attract it, but that should not be used as an excuse to deny effect of one person on another. 

The LOA philosophy does not support blaming the victim, but i have found many examples of people who have used that philosophy to justify criticizing others for not denying others effect on themselves ... and denying their effect on others.  Fact is people do engage with each other and effect each other ... that engagement is what creates the best of what humanity can be.

Any denial of effect denies shared consequences.  Such a denial can be a person's not taking responsibility their own experience and behavior ... or denying that another has the responsitility for theirs.  Such denials can use used to imagine an omnipotence which cannot be shared with others.

------ My Finding:

There is a polarity between attributing cause to self and attributing cause to other.  The more I attribute cause to myself, the less credit i can give to others.  The more i give it to others, the less i can take for myself.  To my experience, on either extreme there is pathology and grave error ... that is why i seek a balance between the two. 

Both LOA and NLP have guidelines which can be interpreted as tipping that balance towards self and away from other.  Now, tipping the scales towards self sure will minimize the bad effects of blaming others and will encourages the good effects of a persons purposeful actions.  At the same time tipping the scales towards others will facilitate empathy, tolerance, cooperation, and appreciation of things outside of one's self.   I claim there is no general rule that should always be applied in all cases.   The best choice can only be made within each specific context as a balance between self and other.

Tags

  1. loa
  2. blame
  3. item 18439
  4. no fallacy zone
  5. shared consequences
  6. fallacies
  7. item 18353
  8. nlp
  9. balance
  10. upstream

Comments


Eiaming says
seth 2015-05-22 20:45:58 18353
Eiaming 2015-05-22 19:58:25 18353
LOA doesn't have a victim mentality so no blame & no victims.

I have frequently heard LOA trains of thought that go like this:  misfortune befell you, therefore you necessarily attracted it.  I find that kind of thinking fallacious.
So .... I've listened to quite a lot of the Abraham YouTubes & I found nothing like that.  Their ontology is a bit strange.  I like it though for the NLP of it.


Seth says
Eiaming 2015-05-22 19:58:25 18353
LOA doesn't have a victim mentality so no blame & no victims.

I have frequently heard LOA trains of thought that go like this:  misfortune befell you, therefore you necessarily attracted it.  I find that kind of thinking fallacious.

Seth says
Eiaming 2015-05-23 00:41:28 18353
seth 2015-05-22 20:45:58 18353
Eiaming 2015-05-22 19:58:25 18353
LOA doesn't have a victim mentality so no blame & no victims.

I have frequently heard LOA trains of thought that go like this:  misfortune befell you, therefore you necessarily attracted it.  I find that kind of thinking fallacious.
So .... I've listened to quite a lot of the Abraham YouTubes & I found nothing like that.  Their ontology is a bit strange.  I like it though for the NLP of it.


i don't think any LOA enthuiasts would actually say a thing like that.   just how they act and the implications of what they say ends up with that point of view.   for example in your last comment yesterday you said, "Having looked for & found dissonance".   Then the rest of what you said put the dissonance on me.  That is an example of blaming the victim.  It is a viscious kind of mirroring bs.  Wheras what is actually happening here is that I listened to what was out there and i found dissonance ... that dissonance was otherness to me ... sorry not my responsibility.  Now, sure,  that is not always the case.  But me thinks a LOA devotee will presume that it *necessarily* is. 

Seth says
more pertinently, if i interact with another mind and perceive that it is factored quite differently than mine, the difference that i perceived is not something that i *necessarily* imagined or created myself.  Now it may be imagined or attracted by myself ... or it may not ... it may *be* that the other mind *is* just factored quite differently.  The same with any other kind of difference perceived. 

The point is that you do not (always) make up that which is not you ... sometimes you do sense other than yourself. 

Eiaming says
seth 2015-05-23 10:31:44 18353
Eiaming 2015-05-23 00:41:28 18353
seth 2015-05-22 20:45:58 18353
Eiaming 2015-05-22 19:58:25 18353
LOA doesn't have a victim mentality so no blame & no victims.

I have frequently heard LOA trains of thought that go like this:  misfortune befell you, therefore you necessarily attracted it.  I find that kind of thinking fallacious.
So .... I've listened to quite a lot of the Abraham YouTubes & I found nothing like that.  Their ontology is a bit strange.  I like it though for the NLP of it.


i don't think any LOA enthuiasts would actually say a thing like that.   just how they act and the implications of what they say ends up with that point of view.   for example in your last comment yesterday you said, "Having looked for & found dissonance".   Then the rest of what you said put the dissonance on me.  That is an example of blaming the victim.  It is a viscious kind of mirroring bs.  Wheras what is actually happening here is that I listened to what was out there and i found dissonance ... that dissonance was otherness to me ... sorry not my responsibility.  Now, sure,  that is not always the case.  But me thinks a LOA devotee will presume that it *necessarily* is. 
If you look for dissonance - you find dissonance ... did you miss the part where I said you look for yellow & you find yellow?  Turd, .. the rest of your statement is nonsense & falsehoods.


Eiaming says
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_IuC3tkqLdk - on blame Abraham

Seth says
Eiamistic 2015-05-24 09:03:56 18353
Run this by Nathan - I recommend a second opinion. [unhealthy emotion deleted]


i intend to.

Seth says
Eiaming 2015-05-23 11:27:01 18353
seth 2015-05-23 11:25:17 18353
more pertinently, if i interact with another mind and perceive that it is factored quite differently than mine, the difference that i perceived is not something that i *necessarily* imagined or created myself.  Now it may be imagined or attracted by myself ... or it may not ... it may *be* that the other mind *is* just factored quite differently.  The same with any other kind of difference perceived. 

The point is that you do not (always) make up that which is not you ... sometimes you do sense other than yourself. 
Others like PR disagree. No proof [irresponsible instult cut].


What specifically that i said did they disagree with ... and if so, how so in your own words. 

Seth says
If person A completely manifests all that he experiences ... and person B completely manifests all that he experiences.  Then person A never ever senses person B.  and visa versa.  It is only when the one can effect the other that anything between them really happens.  LOA seems oblivious to that fact in their story.  LOA is all about attract what excites you ... which is fine ... but incomplete. Life is not just something in service a an ego. 

Seth says
seth 2015-05-24 07:55:15 18353
source: mark

As far as LOA goes - note references I point out on occasions -  your last seems to be a distorted amusement - like a paradox. None of what you say about it above seems to be what they believe.  Maybe run it up against Nate or not.  I don't think it is worth my time trying to explain. You don't seem to read or grok what I say anyway.   I am not their spokesperson. I already told you I like the NLP affects of some of it, but some of their ontology seems weird. To me your words & the title of this item express a vested interest in blame, excuse & victim-hood.
-
... please read what you have said here.  every last proposition is only a negative reaction twards me or what i said, none of it is anything about the propositions that i said ... nothing about the topic ... just meta about me/you.  just content free negative emotion ... with just a bit of waving at an unstated background. 

so ask yourself ... what if everybody responded to everybody else with just non-specific negative emotion ... what kind of world would we have going on?




Seth says
Eiaming 2015-05-24 00:59:05 18353
Eiaming 2015-05-23 11:27:01 18353
seth 2015-05-23 11:25:17 18353
more pertinently, if i interact with another mind and perceive that it is factored quite differently than mine, the difference that i perceived is not something that i *necessarily* imagined or created myself.  Now it may be imagined or attracted by myself ... or it may not ... it may *be* that the other mind *is* just factored quite differently.  The same with any other kind of difference perceived. 

The point is that you do not (always) make up that which is not you ... sometimes you do sense other than yourself. 
Others like PR disagree. No proof just bullshit.

BTW, none of what you said did anyone else say except you.  You are, however, responsible for your own mind.


Yep i am responsible for my own mind.  That is not the point.


If person A completely manifests all that he experiences ... and person B completely manifests all that he experiences.  Then person A never ever senses person B.  and visa versa.  It is only when the one can effect the other that anything between them really happens.  LOA seems oblivious to that fact in their story.  It is all about attract what excites you ... which is fine ... but incomplete. 

Seth says
source: mark

If you look for dissonance - you find dissonance.


this is pretty much true.    also true is that if you look for harmony you will find harmony.

also true is that if you make dissonance, others may will perceive it and reflect it back to you.

but dissonance is not something just in the eye of one beholder.  it is a fallacy to say to another that if they percieve dissonance, it is their fault, and they should just change their perception to harmony.  especially if you are involved in creating that dissonance.   that is like hitting somone and then saying to them, you made me do it.   that is denying your effect on others.  i think this is the part of LOA that needs to be changed. 



Seth says
seth 2015-06-01 06:25:50 18368
Well one cannot be responsible for the behavior of somebody else AND they be responsible for their behavior too.  So I see a bit of a paradox here.  If you are to be responsible for what you hear, how can i be responsible for it too.   One problem is this natural language word "responsible" which is notoriously ambiguous ... i prefer to analyze in cause and effect.  If I effect you, then it is clear that I caused that effect in you ... if it is useful to assign credit for that effect, then clearly i should be responsible for that effect. (blame seem already burned into the word responsible).  Yet at the same time if you are completely responsible for your being, everything that that it does being caused by you,  does that not also extend to the results of my effect upon you?  I got into this a bit in 18353

So, to keep this contradiction out of my thinking, i am responsible for the effect of my behavior on myself and to a certain extent on others too.  But others are responsible for interperting the meaning and effect of my behavior on them ... that is not something for which  i should take responsiblity.  I cannot make you hear me according to my intentions.  For that i have to rely on you.  ... else i have in my mind robbed you of your own responsibility for your being. 

this is on topic here too.

Mark de LA says
Blame goes hand-in-hand with VICTIMOLOGY!
LOA seems to be to be NLP with the invented device of a train of feeling & an ontology to support the claim a result - somewhat using hypnosis.



Eiammymind says
Only for EWEs  NLP & LOA are distinct fields of study!

Seth says
There is a polarity between attributing cause to self and attributing cause to other.  The more I attitude cause to myself, the less credit i can give to others.  The more i give it to others, the less i can take for myself.  To my experience, on either extreme there is pathology and grave error ... that is why i seek a balance between the two. 

Both LOA and NLP have guidelines which can be interpreted as tipping that balance towards self and away from other.  Now, tipping the scales towards self sure will minimize the bad effects of blaming others and will encourages the good effects of a persons purposeful actions.  At the same time tipping the scales towards others will facilitate empathy, tolerance, cooperation, and appreciation of things outside of one's self.   I claim there is no general rule that should always be applied in all cases.   The best choice can only be made within each specific context as a balance between self and other.

Seth says

For example, isolating myself tends to favor my ego, sacrificing my knowledge of others, and my empathy towards them,  unbalancing me in that direction.

video 

Seth says
source: mark

You can find a polarity anywhere - the Tao is the way. Doesn't mean anything because of the discovery.
Well, no,  one cannot discover a polarity anywhere.  If one discovers two qualities, where when one increases, the other decreases and visa versa, then one has discovered a polarity.   But given any two qualities, if that consequence does not obtain, then no polarity exists between them.  

This means that the dynamic of the polarity can inform how to balance.  For example, isolating myself tends to favor my ego and sacrificing my knowledge of others and my empathy towards them,  unbalancing me in that direction.  Alternatively excessively expecting others to instigate my behavior, unbalances me in the other direction.  I can actually feel that dynamic happening ... i think lots of people can .... this is not mere intellectual conjecture.

Seth says
seth 2015-06-03 10:00:20 16241
upon reading this ...
source:LoA glossery

Upstream: Refers to the state of having a preponderance of negative feelings and struggling with life. It is a metaphor for "paddling upstream", "going against the current", and not "going with the flow" while working way too hard at something (figuratively speaking.) In Abraham Hicks circles, when you are upset or angry you are said to be "going upstream".
... i immediately flashed on my love of salmon swimming upstream to spawn.  The salmon run really has to be seen to be appreciated ... they actually inspire me.   LoA has made struggling against the current a bad thing ... but that is just their presumption.  It is also interesting to note that swimming with the current almost always profits one's ego ... not other.  So this upstream/downstream polarity is a choice that me, I Bozo, intend to balance ... not always assume I should be going down


this, strangely enough, is quite on topic here .

Seth says
interesting to align (compare, mung) different polarities ... for exampe this upstream/downstream polarity to the competition/cooperation polarity ... eh?  just saying it might be something to think about ... grocks might emerge ... maybe ... maybe not.

Si says

If person A completely manifests all that he experiences ... and person B completely manifests all that he experiences, then person A never ever senses person B.  and visa versa.  It is only when the one can effect the other that anything between them actually happens.

As I think many other dialogs that have happened since this thought was written will show, this quote is not true. We can sense otherness and choose to include it or not … or do so by default according to our agreements and beliefs. The ability to “sense” is not dependant on the ability to manifest and the relationship between them is a loose one mainly based on beliefs of the parties involved.

Mark de LA says
Extend this thought with the “I AM” movie after you watch it. Was going to add a new thought on the misuses of LOA & the Golden Rule as hammers but this suffices. (see the  If someone doesn’t like what another says is he attracting it by his own behavior? maybe, otoh he is just being an asshole attracting my wrath. I think i’ll go for it. OTOH, if he contracts cancer he attracted it by his own behavior or stuff he put in his vortex for some purpose.  LOA ontology breaks down when it has to isolate itself in a positive vortex to avoid negatives .  Where did all the negative come from.  Oops! I forgot one must reframe the negatives into a positive to make it work. Sorry folks, I still can’t reframe baby rapers & ISIS into something positive.
I’ll try harder after I rearrange my sock drawer & do a few more important things. null See Matthew VI,3-5 on the beam/mote thingy if confused. 
 

Si says
The beam mote thinginy is a pure LOA reframe btw.  

It is very easy to re-mainifest ISIS and baby rapers … but the biggest thing about that is that you are in someone else’s business to start off with. It’s not your experience to be having, even in your thoughts.

Yep, if you get cancer, you totally attracted it … take full responsibility for that … and then, you can completely change it too by the same means … everything is changable in any details you like because it is your story. Nothing is a done deal until it’s done, or the fat lady sings, whichever comes first.  

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