Not True!

About: about: muslim immigrants smash & urinate on virgin mary statue in italy

Ontologically & truthfully speaking the representation of something is not that thing itself.  All you have done by representing something & sharing it is share your representation. That is merely your interpretation, baggage (meaning), beliefs & errors & distortions about something. The thingy itself is not more shared as a result.
Be more committed to the truth!

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  1. item 18348

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Eiaming says
May a turdfish help clear things up: (**)


Eiamistic says
2015-05-24 13:04:55 18354
To paraphrase Gertrude Stein " a representation is a representation is a representation ....." - doesnt change it's IS-ness just because it is secret or not.


Seth says
Incidentally i absolutely agree on the truth of your sentence, "the representation of something is not that thing itself" .   Even, i might add, when the thing is itself a representation of something else ... except in the recursive case where the thing represents itself ... but that is a rare case which can be usually ignored.

One trivial case is where the thing itself is a secret.  In that case if one represents and shares the secret, the secret is eliminated ... in other words that is an example where sharing a representation changes the thing itself.

There are lots of other trivial examples, some even more interesting than the one in the previous paragraph.

Eiamistic says
seth 2015-05-24 12:49:09 18354
Well i can give specific examples where representing something does change the thing represented.  i believe i already did some of that in 18341, but can provide more for your consideration.  Some of the examples would be trivial and not controversial.  Others may be deeper and more difficult to see and agree upon.

I agree, some kinds of things do not change at all by being represented, as you so wisely observed.  However others kinds of things do change when represented.   Ontologically speaking the trick is to know which do and which do not.  Also we need an understanding the nature of the relationship of the things to the observer of the changes in the things.  That is a bit of a complicated paragraph, but it can be photographed and verified from different perspectives  should anyone intend to  delve into the matter. 

Caution, this is just a bit deeper perspective on the common knowledge wisdom that you represented in your item here. 
Bolded is where you fail the class. You may change but the things are what they are.  IS just doesn't change. IS is not about change. Besides, somehow you must think that nobody knows exactly or truly what IS & so all that you can relate to is the collective shared munge of mind-shit going around about stuff; mostly true most of the time while that which IS remains mostly unencountered. Still since your munge of mind shit is different from everybody else (the uniqueness prize) so nothing is really shared & IS in the context of NOW marches on not touched & not shared.


Eiamistic says
seth 2015-05-25 09:13:51 18354
Eiamistic 2015-05-25 09:06:13 18354
seth 2015-05-25 09:02:39 18354
Eiamistic 2015-05-25 08:53:54 18354
IS & existence are NOT things, BTW.

most ontologies have a top element under which everything else falls.  that is the sense in which i use the word "thing".  we have discussed that before.   so call it a "is-ness" or call it a process or call it watever.  nothing in what i said changes, just the words that would be used.
So you missed the point & relegated IS to something in a book , the Internet, or your mind or a pile of shit?  BTW a pile of shit has more IS than your words.


well mark, this is-shit of yours is not represented in my mind.   all i know of it is what you and others like PR have said about it.  based on that it doesnt interest me at all.  i have my own little chiggy little wiggely in my mind that i can't share with you either.  do you care about that?  sholuld we obsess over that? 
RWG ... descending into self-created dungeon:



down
&
out


Eiamistic says
Eiamistic 2015-05-25 08:46:41 18354
seth 2015-05-25 08:42:02 18354
Eiamistic 2015-05-24 13:09:32 18354
2015-05-24 13:04:55 18354
To paraphrase Gertrude Stein " a representation is a representation is a representation ....." - doesnt change it's IS-ness just because it is secret or not.


well if you tell a secret it is no longer a secret.

if you represent something that was not previously known, it is no longer not known.

try an experiment:  focus on some particular part of what you call "is-ness" which has not already been represented in our culture ... then represent is somehow as best as you can so others can see it ... then go back and focus on that same "is-ness" .... and see for yourself if there is any change in your awareness of that particular is-ness. 

try another experiment:  notice something that you never paid any attention to.  make a memorable note of it ... maybe tell sombody about it.  now watch how many more times you notice it. 

And sure, such changes are all in your mind  ... as you noticed above  ... however if you grock that the culture at large is just a larger mind, then this phenomena of representing takes on more importance.  if you don't grock that the culture at large is just a larger mind, then i don't think you will see the phenomena.   could you let me know if you see it or not?
You missed the "in the context of NOW!" part . It is important in that NOW is the only place where IS is! Still more dry intellectualism from your camp!
For further explanations & questions see:


Eiamistic says
IS & existence are NOT things, BTW.

Seth says
Eiamistic 2015-05-25 10:08:37 18354
seth 2015-05-25 09:10:39 18354
incidentally if some mind does not know of something, then it is not represented in that mind. 

we really should be able to agree on that simple thing.
Nope! There is consciousness which transcends representation.


Well individual humans sharing their representations may well be all that is necessary for human consciousness to happen.

That is the proposition that needs to be tested here.

Eiamistic says
seth 2015-05-25 09:10:39 18354
incidentally if some mind does not know of something, then it is not represented in that mind. 

we really should be able to agree on that simple thing.
Nope! There is consciousness which transcends representation.

Eiamistic says
seth 2015-05-25 09:02:39 18354
Eiamistic 2015-05-25 08:53:54 18354
IS & existence are NOT things, BTW.

most ontologies have a top element under which everything else falls.  that is the sense in which i use the word "thing".  we have discussed that before.   so call it a "is-ness" or call it a process or call it watever.  nothing in what i said changes, just the words that would be used.
So you missed the point & relegated IS to something in a book , the Internet, or your mind or a pile of shit?  BTW a pile of shit has more IS than your words.


Seth says
Eiamistic 2015-05-25 08:52:12 18354
Eiamistic 2015-05-25 08:46:41 18354
seth 2015-05-25 08:42:02 18354
Eiamistic 2015-05-24 13:09:32 18354
2015-05-24 13:04:55 18354
To paraphrase Gertrude Stein " a representation is a representation is a representation ....." - doesnt change it's IS-ness just because it is secret or not.


well if you tell a secret it is no longer a secret.

if you represent something that was not previously known, it is no longer not known.

try an experiment:  focus on some particular part of what you call "is-ness" which has not already been represented in our culture ... then represent is somehow as best as you can so others can see it ... then go back and focus on that same "is-ness" .... and see for yourself if there is any change in your awareness of that particular is-ness. 

try another experiment:  notice something that you never paid any attention to.  make a memorable note of it ... maybe tell sombody about it.  now watch how many more times you notice it. 

And sure, such changes are all in your mind  ... as you noticed above  ... however if you grock that the culture at large is just a larger mind, then this phenomena of representing takes on more importance.  if you don't grock that the culture at large is just a larger mind, then i don't think you will see the phenomena.   could you let me know if you see it or not?
You missed the "in the context of NOW!" part . It is important in that NOW is the only place where IS is! Still more dry intellectualism from your camp!
For further explanations & questions see:


ok whatever.  as usual you attack me as 'intellectual' rather than examining the is-ness of which i speak. 

incidentally i don't see what now has to do with representing or not representing.   maybe you could represednt that to me ... as of now it is an unknown to me.

Seth says
Eiamistic 2015-05-25 09:06:13 18354
seth 2015-05-25 09:02:39 18354
Eiamistic 2015-05-25 08:53:54 18354
IS & existence are NOT things, BTW.

most ontologies have a top element under which everything else falls.  that is the sense in which i use the word "thing".  we have discussed that before.   so call it a "is-ness" or call it a process or call it watever.  nothing in what i said changes, just the words that would be used.
So you missed the point & relegated IS to something in a book , the Internet, or your mind or a pile of shit?  BTW a pile of shit has more IS than your words.


Well the only difference between a representation in a individual human's mind and a representation in a personal conversation or a book or the internet or on the stage or in a movie or on TV is which mind is involved. 

And yes i get that you are referring to an existence experienced only during a moment called "NOW" which has no possible other representation and that you are referring to that as "IS".  My point is that experience must necessarily remain your private affair.  It cannot enter my consciousness unless you can find a way to give me a representation of it. 


... but sure you can wave at it ... and i can play that i am waving at the same thing ....

hi little thingey

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