an awful trick
But I can imagine the how it feels, your outside and mine interacting in civilization. We humans are all, to a lesser or greater degree, quite good at imagining; and so the numbness can almost go away ... empathy, compassion, cooperation, understanding and mutual joy prevailing. Imagine it, and it will be so.
then i got to thinking about how we train ourselves to sense the spiritual world ... to feel what it feels like to be there ... so in a sense that is numbness learned to be sensitivity ... and so is learning to imagine empathy, compassion, cooperation and the mutual joy prevailing in civilization.Tags
- item 18919
- item 18920
- we
- birdie
- bozo sayings
Comments
Seth says
My poem, "An Awful Trick" is trying to grock a awareness of the outside, without ego, without that which is constructed about it by one's inside interpretations. It wonders how it would be, should the outside be, just like the inside is ... having qaualia and all. I hope it attracts that grock.
My poem, "An Awful Trick" is trying to grock a awareness of the outside, without ego, without that which is constructed about it by one's inside interpretations. It wonders how it would be, should the outside be, just like the inside is ... having qaualia and all. I hope it attracts that grock.
Seth says
Well what i find totally interesting about how you describe the Spiritual World is that one could describe the "outside" referred to in "An Awful Trick" almost identically. Especially the part about it not being "effort-free".
A long time ago, i wondered, what if things had gotten confused and turned around ... what if this mysterious world which has to be imagined and then intuited to be sensed is actually not inside, but is outside. Personally i am still on that wonder.
IamanI 2015-10-14 07:41:10 18920
Spiritual World is not a different "World" - just a different level of consciousness which is always available, but not as clear as daylight. When one shifts focus to the astral one finds stuff which may or not be described with language appropriate to the physical. Such is why it appears occult to some just like the mysteries of making bread appear to those who just buy it in a package at the grocery market. Not all levels of consciousness are effort-free; some require self discipline to stay on focus. It is not effort-free to learn to play the violin. It is not effort-free to learn calculus. It is not effort-free to learn to program a computer or win a dance contest. It is not effort-free to grok the consciousness levels above Malkuth (physical 5-sense world) in the tree of life.
Moreover, some interpenetrate each other with human being.
Moreover, some interpenetrate each other with human being.
Well what i find totally interesting about how you describe the Spiritual World is that one could describe the "outside" referred to in "An Awful Trick" almost identically. Especially the part about it not being "effort-free". A long time ago, i wondered, what if things had gotten confused and turned around ... what if this mysterious world which has to be imagined and then intuited to be sensed is actually not inside, but is outside. Personally i am still on that wonder.
Seth says
source: mark
No Ego no awareness
No Ego no awareness
IamanI says
seth 2015-10-14 08:50:42 18920
source: mark
Inside-outside is your shtick - I was careful to unify it all with the word interpenetrating. No Ego no awareness.
Inside-outside is your shtick - I was careful to unify it all with the word interpenetrating. No Ego no awareness.
Well i rather think, this inside/outside is not just me ... we each of us have an inside and an outside and clearly it dominates how we approach the world. It is, one way or another, embedded in most of the memes floating abound these days. Now, one surely can imagine that it is all the same and write stories about unity, and from some perspective it certainly must be all unified ... in fact my poem is bemoaning the fact that I can not directly feel it that way.
a bit of irony there, huh
? ... you accusing me of not knowing what the poem said i was sad about.
Do you get qualia about what is outside of your inside?
a bit of irony there, huh
? ... you accusing me of not knowing what the poem said i was sad about. Do you get qualia about what is outside of your inside?
Be careful what you do with prepositions. Your Arrow has not only direction but the tricky thingy of where & what is happening with the shaft - not just a verb. Use of word qualia about my side seems to be an obsession for you about me. Blame? I ignore.
Union of Hadit with Nuit may be what you are seeking (see LL if unfamiliar) - maybe your qualia is an unconscious desire for what is described quite well in occult circles.
Union of Hadit with Nuit may be what you are seeking (see LL if unfamiliar) - maybe your qualia is an unconscious desire for what is described quite well in occult circles.
Seth says
source: mark
Inside-outside is your shtick - I was careful to unify it all with the word interpenetrating. No Ego no awareness.
Inside-outside is your shtick - I was careful to unify it all with the word interpenetrating. No Ego no awareness.
Well i rather think, this inside/outside is not just me ... we each of us have an inside and an outside and clearly it dominates how we approach the world. It is, one way or another, embedded in most of the memes floating abound these days. Now, one surely can imagine that it is all the same and write stories about unity, and from some perspective it certainly must be all unified ... in fact my poem is bemoaning the fact that I can not directly feel it that way.
a bit of irony there, huh ? ... you accusing me of not knowing what the poem said i was sad about.
Do you get qualia about what is outside of your inside?
a bit of irony there, huh
? ... you accusing me of not knowing what the poem said i was sad about. Do you get qualia about what is outside of your inside?
Seth says
source: mark
Be careful what you do with prepositions. Your Arrow has not only direction but the tricky thingy of where & what is happening with the shaft - not just a verb.
Be careful what you do with prepositions. Your Arrow has not only direction but the tricky thingy of where & what is happening with the shaft - not just a verb.
I can not guess specifically what preposition you are talking about, nor the direction of its arrow, nor its distinction from its shaft. Can you be more specific? ... perhaps with an example.
Incidntally my use of "inside" or "outside" are like places ... for example inside a house, outside a house. But i don't know if that is the "preposition" you are talking about, primarially because there is no preposition there.
Incidntally my use of "inside" or "outside" are like places ... for example inside a house, outside a house. But i don't know if that is the "preposition" you are talking about, primarially because there is no preposition there.
Seth says
Well i didn't actully want the qualia itself ... that after all cannot even be transmitted. I just wanted to know if it felt like anything at all.
IamanI 2015-10-14 11:38:41 18920
seth 2015-10-14 09:38:21 18920
Well me, i have no access (knowledge) of your qualia ... there was no blame whatsoever in my question ... just curiosity.
Do you get any qualia about things that happen outside of yourself which have no direct effect upon you? Generally speaking i do not get such qualia ... which is why i wrote the poem. Although i think there are ways to build up, imagine, intuit such qualia ... it just takes some effort.
But, hey, if you want to keep that secret from me, no problem, and no obsession over here ... just makes you more mysterious to me.
IamanI 2015-10-14 09:03:44 18920
Use of word qualia about my side seems to be an obsession for you about me. Blame? I ignore.
Use of word qualia about my side seems to be an obsession for you about me. Blame? I ignore.
Well me, i have no access (knowledge) of your qualia ... there was no blame whatsoever in my question ... just curiosity.
Do you get any qualia about things that happen outside of yourself which have no direct effect upon you? Generally speaking i do not get such qualia ... which is why i wrote the poem. Although i think there are ways to build up, imagine, intuit such qualia ... it just takes some effort.
But, hey, if you want to keep that secret from me, no problem, and no obsession over here ... just makes you more mysterious to me.
That's what the emoteys are for - make a more complete set & you will get more information.
Of course I could stream a set for you:
Of course I could stream a set for you:
Well i didn't actully want the qualia itself ... that after all cannot even be transmitted. I just wanted to know if it felt like anything at all.
IamanI says
seth 2015-10-14 09:29:22 18920
I guess i will have to research that one ... i don't suppose you will just tell me in your own words.
IamanI 2015-10-14 09:08:34 18920
I guess i will have to research that one ... i don't suppose you will just tell me in your own words.
Nope! Look it up. There are a bunch of podcasts on Living Thelema that are reasonably fruitful places from a modern perspective. I mentioned them on Breck's site a couple of days ago.
IamanI says
seth 2015-10-14 21:30:08 18920
Yes, of course! And you are always free to exclude yourself form anybody who says "we" and might be including you. That is why I fail to understand your complaint.
IamanI 2015-10-14 16:20:00 18920
seth 2015-10-14 16:12:52 18920
Well we are all pretty much in the same predicament here, you and me, and all the other human persons on this Earth. I suppose i could call out each person's name when i generalize and talk of "we", but seriously that is just stupid ... so unless you are some alien insect the reference is clear. If i say something about us, and it does not apply to you, well then perhaps we just disagreed on the facts of the matter. No confusion ... least you want to make one up.
You could confront this "birdie" aversion you have with using any form of talking about common human matters directly ... talk about it. I have no such aversion. It feels quite natural. All of my friends and family use it and there is never any confusion as to what we are talking about when we do. Do you not do the same with your friends and family?
If you noticed, "An Awful Trick" was written in the first person. It was my authorship, something that i can imagine myself feeling, ... i put it on nobody else. So which sentence here has offended you, or in which you do not know to whom i am referring?
IamanI 2015-10-14 15:21:52 18920
The confusion comes when you shoot a birdie into it & project a WE!
Well we are all pretty much in the same predicament here, you and me, and all the other human persons on this Earth. I suppose i could call out each person's name when i generalize and talk of "we", but seriously that is just stupid ... so unless you are some alien insect the reference is clear. If i say something about us, and it does not apply to you, well then perhaps we just disagreed on the facts of the matter. No confusion ... least you want to make one up.
You could confront this "birdie" aversion you have with using any form of talking about common human matters directly ... talk about it. I have no such aversion. It feels quite natural. All of my friends and family use it and there is never any confusion as to what we are talking about when we do. Do you not do the same with your friends and family?
If you noticed, "An Awful Trick" was written in the first person. It was my authorship, something that i can imagine myself feeling, ... i put it on nobody else. So which sentence here has offended you, or in which you do not know to whom i am referring?
You must have forgotten the changing identity in the middle of the stream thingy. 
Who is talking? Who is listening? & about Whom are they talking? I speak for myself!
Who is talking? Who is listening? & about Whom are they talking? I speak for myself!Yes, of course! And you are always free to exclude yourself form anybody who says "we" and might be including you. That is why I fail to understand your complaint.
NP. not a complaint just a suggestion for a wake-up call. Anyway ..
I ignore your "WE" ethos-validation & know you are really talking about yourself anyway.
As your validation sometimes fails for me, a qualia shows up which sparks the idea that you're talking word salad again & perhaps even some bull shit.. At that point I speed read to the end & maybe the emotey (if present) .
I ignore your "WE" ethos-validation & know you are really talking about yourself anyway.
As your validation sometimes fails for me, a qualia shows up which sparks the idea that you're talking word salad again & perhaps even some bull shit.. At that point I speed read to the end & maybe the emotey (if present) .
Seth says
There is no confusion. The mouse is either inside the box or he is outside the box. We can talk about what is inside or what is outside and quite know of what we speak just according the the context.
When i use "insides" in this context, i refer to the phenomena of which a person is aware that are private to him and inaccessible from the outside such as his thoughts and feelings and whatever else happens within his body of which only he is aware.
Outsides are, of course, the opposite.
IamanI 2015-10-14 11:53:51 18920
seth 2015-10-14 09:28:20 18920
source: mark
Be careful what you do with prepositions. Your Arrow has not only direction but the tricky thingy of where & what is happening with the shaft - not just a verb.
Be careful what you do with prepositions. Your Arrow has not only direction but the tricky thingy of where & what is happening with the shaft - not just a verb.
I can not guess specifically what preposition you are talking about, nor the direction of its arrow, nor its distinction from its shaft. Can you be more specific? ... perhaps with an example.
Incidntally my use of "inside" or "outside" are like places ... for example inside a house, outside a house. But i don't know if that is the "preposition" you are talking about, primarially because there is no preposition there.
Incidntally my use of "inside" or "outside" are like places ... for example inside a house, outside a house. But i don't know if that is the "preposition" you are talking about, primarially because there is no preposition there.
http://www.wordsmyth.net/?rid=21355 - even inside-out and outside-in - it can be used as a noun, adjective, adverb etc. The word "in" is used as an adjective or an adverb or preposition
in
Old English in (prep.) "in, into, upon, on, at, among; about, during;" inne (adv.) "within, inside," from Proto-Germanic *in (cognates: Old Frisian, Dutch, German, Gothic in, Old Norse i), from PIE *en "in" (cognates: Greek en, Latin in "in, into," Old Irish in, Welsh yn-, Old Church Slavonic on-). As an adjective from 1590s.
The forms merged in Middle English. Modern sense distinction between in and on is from later Middle English. Sense of "holding power" (the in party) first recorded c. 1600; that of "exclusive" (the in-crowd, an in-joke) is from 1907 (in-group); that of "stylish, fashionable" (the in thing) is from 1960. The noun sense of "influence, access" (have an in with) first recorded 1929 in American English. In-and-out "copulation" is attested from 1610s.
(***)
in
Old English in (prep.) "in, into, upon, on, at, among; about, during;" inne (adv.) "within, inside," from Proto-Germanic *in (cognates: Old Frisian, Dutch, German, Gothic in, Old Norse i), from PIE *en "in" (cognates: Greek en, Latin in "in, into," Old Irish in, Welsh yn-, Old Church Slavonic on-). As an adjective from 1590s. The forms merged in Middle English. Modern sense distinction between in and on is from later Middle English. Sense of "holding power" (the in party) first recorded c. 1600; that of "exclusive" (the in-crowd, an in-joke) is from 1907 (in-group); that of "stylish, fashionable" (the in thing) is from 1960. The noun sense of "influence, access" (have an in with) first recorded 1929 in American English. In-and-out "copulation" is attested from 1610s.
(***)There is no confusion. The mouse is either inside the box or he is outside the box. We can talk about what is inside or what is outside and quite know of what we speak just according the the context.
When i use "insides" in this context, i refer to the phenomena of which a person is aware that are private to him and inaccessible from the outside such as his thoughts and feelings and whatever else happens within his body of which only he is aware.
Outsides are, of course, the opposite.
Seth says
Yes, of course! And you are always free to exclude yourself form anybody who says "we" and might be including you. That is why I fail to understand your complaint.
IamanI 2015-10-14 16:20:00 18920
seth 2015-10-14 16:12:52 18920
Well we are all pretty much in the same predicament here, you and me, and all the other human persons on this Earth. I suppose i could call out each person's name when i generalize and talk of "we", but seriously that is just stupid ... so unless you are some alien insect the reference is clear. If i say something about us, and it does not apply to you, well then perhaps we just disagreed on the facts of the matter. No confusion ... least you want to make one up.
You could confront this "birdie" aversion you have with using any form of talking about common human matters directly ... talk about it. I have no such aversion. It feels quite natural. All of my friends and family use it and there is never any confusion as to what we are talking about when we do. Do you not do the same with your friends and family?
If you noticed, "An Awful Trick" was written in the first person. It was my authorship, something that i can imagine myself feeling, ... i put it on nobody else. So which sentence here has offended you, or in which you do not know to whom i am referring?
IamanI 2015-10-14 15:21:52 18920
The confusion comes when you shoot a birdie into it & project a WE!
Well we are all pretty much in the same predicament here, you and me, and all the other human persons on this Earth. I suppose i could call out each person's name when i generalize and talk of "we", but seriously that is just stupid ... so unless you are some alien insect the reference is clear. If i say something about us, and it does not apply to you, well then perhaps we just disagreed on the facts of the matter. No confusion ... least you want to make one up.
You could confront this "birdie" aversion you have with using any form of talking about common human matters directly ... talk about it. I have no such aversion. It feels quite natural. All of my friends and family use it and there is never any confusion as to what we are talking about when we do. Do you not do the same with your friends and family?
If you noticed, "An Awful Trick" was written in the first person. It was my authorship, something that i can imagine myself feeling, ... i put it on nobody else. So which sentence here has offended you, or in which you do not know to whom i am referring?
You must have forgotten the changing identity in the middle of the stream thingy. Who is talking? Who is listening? & about Whom are they talking? I speak for myself!
Who is talking? Who is listening? & about Whom are they talking? I speak for myself!Yes, of course! And you are always free to exclude yourself form anybody who says "we" and might be including you. That is why I fail to understand your complaint.
Mark de LA says
so if i say, "cats have claws" am i also talking about myself because i have not seen all cats in the world? i think not. (no we)
Also notice that whether a persons includes themselves in my context is something inside them that i would not necessarily know, unless they chirp up their assent. So no contact is necessary for me to say something like "we believe that government should be smaller" to you in my blog here and honestly believe that it is true. (assuming his premise) A new person reading this thread will naturally include themselves in that "we" or will not ... that does not change the the truth of my proposition to myself ... and i should not change the truth of my proposition to you either. I'm just telling you that government should be smaller, and informing you that i believe you think so too. <<== Then just say it that way instead of assuming I agree with you like political hacks do.
~
When political hacks like Hillary Clinton say " the American People want ..." I know she is lying.
When you use the editorial WE , knowing that you can not read my mind, so are you.
so if i say, "cats have claws" am i also talking about myself because i have not seen all cats in the world? i think not. (no we)
Also notice that whether a persons includes themselves in my context is something inside them that i would not necessarily know, unless they chirp up their assent. So no contact is necessary for me to say something like "we believe that government should be smaller" to you in my blog here and honestly believe that it is true. (assuming his premise) A new person reading this thread will naturally include themselves in that "we" or will not ... that does not change the the truth of my proposition to myself ... and i should not change the truth of my proposition to you either. I'm just telling you that government should be smaller, and informing you that i believe you think so too. <<== Then just say it that way instead of assuming I agree with you like political hacks do.
~
When political hacks like Hillary Clinton say " the American People want ..." I know she is lying.
When you use the editorial WE , knowing that you can not read my mind, so are you.
Seth says
so if i say, "cats have claws" am i also talking about myself because i have not seen all cats in the world? i think not.
Also notice that whether a persons includes themselves in my context is something inside them that i would not necessarily know, unless they chirp up their assent. So no contact is necessary for me to say something like "we believe that government should be smaller" to you in my blog here and honestly believe that it is true. A new person reading this thread will naturally include themselves in that "we" or will not ... that does not change the the truth of my proposition to myself ... and i should not change the truth of my proposition to you either. I'm just telling you that government should be smaller, and informing you that i believe you think so too.
M 2015-10-15 07:32:53 18920
seth 2015-10-15 05:30:27 18920
source: mark
I ignore your "WE" ethos-validation & know you are really talking about yourself anyway.
I ignore your "WE" ethos-validation & know you are really talking about yourself anyway.
Well then you "know" something that is a lie. When i say "we" i am talking about all those persons who include themselves in the context at hand. That you apparently believe it to be just about myself is something that is inside you. Can you see how useful this inside/outside concept is? We could get very specific and particular and work out an example and verify it logically, if you want. But that would go nowhere, unless we both intend to understand each other.
When i say "we" i am talking about all those persons who include themselves in the context at hand. That you apparently believe it to be just about myself is something that is inside you. Can you see how useful this inside/outside concept is? We could get very specific and particular and work out an example and verify it logically, if you want. But that would go nowhere, unless we both intend to understand each other. Well I do know you have confusion since you are not in contact with "all those persons who include themselves in the context at hand" & are only imagining that you are AND the only one speaking is you .
so if i say, "cats have claws" am i also talking about myself because i have not seen all cats in the world? i think not.Also notice that whether a persons includes themselves in my context is something inside them that i would not necessarily know, unless they chirp up their assent. So no contact is necessary for me to say something like "we believe that government should be smaller" to you in my blog here and honestly believe that it is true. A new person reading this thread will naturally include themselves in that "we" or will not ... that does not change the the truth of my proposition to myself ... and i should not change the truth of my proposition to you either. I'm just telling you that government should be smaller, and informing you that i believe you think so too.
Seth says
Seth: When i say "we" i am talking about all those persons who include themselves in the context at hand.
Mark: Well I do know you have confusion since you are not in contact with "all those persons who include themselves in the context at hand" & are only imagining that you are AND the only one speaking is you .
Seth: so if i say, "cats have claws" am i also talking about myself because i have not seen all cats in the world? i think not.
What i am saying here is that it is not necessary for me to be "in contact" with all of the people who include themselves in what i refer to as "we", to name that group so that i can talk about it ... just like i don't need to have seen every cat that ever lived to say "cats have paws" ... there is no confusion.
Having a name for something does give us a handle on it to grok it. "We" can be used as the name of a group of persons who have a common understanding or purpose. That seems to offend your selfie for a reason that perchance only you know
.
Seth: When i say "we" i am talking about all those persons who include themselves in the context at hand.
Mark: Well I do know you have confusion since you are not in contact with "all those persons who include themselves in the context at hand" & are only imagining that you are AND the only one speaking is you .
Seth: so if i say, "cats have claws" am i also talking about myself because i have not seen all cats in the world? i think not.
What i am saying here is that it is not necessary for me to be "in contact" with all of the people who include themselves in what i refer to as "we", to name that group so that i can talk about it ... just like i don't need to have seen every cat that ever lived to say "cats have paws" ... there is no confusion.
Having a name for something does give us a handle on it to grok it. "We" can be used as the name of a group of persons who have a common understanding or purpose. That seems to offend your selfie for a reason that perchance only you know.
Seth says
source: mark
When political hacks like Hillary Clinton say " the American People want ..." I know she is lying.
When you use the editorial WE , knowing that you can not read my mind, so are you.
When political hacks like Hillary Clinton say " the American People want ..." I know she is lying.
When you use the editorial WE , knowing that you can not read my mind, so are you.
Well when politicians or talking heads make blanket statements about groups of people which i feel are false, i go tilt in my head too ... frequently saying to present company "that is bullshit". I respect you doing the same when you hear me saying something about a group that you think is false. But the point of the name "we" is when you agree, not when you disagree. That you always seem to intend to disagree, and never enjoy agreeing, is no reason for me to stop talking about us.
Seth says
the point of having a name for "we" is when we agree, not when we disagree.
-- Bozo Faust
This is the salient point here that should not get lost or degraded by distraction. We need a name to talk about ourselve(s) when we agree or have a common purpose. Having such a name gives us a handle on that when it happens.
Think .... how you would be in the world if you had no name and could never even be referred to at all ... could never be the subject of a thought ... could never be an object of conscious attention.
There is power in knowing the name of a thing ... it gives us some measure of awareness of it. I'm sure this has been written of by many others too ... this is not just my bozometry.
This is the salient point here that should not get lost or degraded by distraction. We need a name to talk about ourselve(s) when we agree or have a common purpose. Having such a name gives us a handle on that when it happens.
Think .... how you would be in the world if you had no name and could never even be referred to at all ... could never be the subject of a thought ... could never be an object of conscious attention.
There is power in knowing the name of a thing ... it gives us some measure of awareness of it. I'm sure this has been written of by many others too ... this is not just my bozometry.
Seth says
Mark, i am just fine and will continue to speak of us by our name just whenever that is my thought.
That you might not agree with my propositions, would just mean to you that my propositions are not about you. Most people know that almost instinctively by the age of 21 ... who knows, maybe there is some way for you to relearn it ... i don't know ... not really my business.
source: mark
Nemo is fine, use "I" when the only authority is yourself & you feel you need more Ethos.
Nemo is fine, use "I" when the only authority is yourself & you feel you need more Ethos.
Mark, i am just fine and will continue to speak of us by our name just whenever that is my thought. That you might not agree with my propositions, would just mean to you that my propositions are not about you. Most people know that almost instinctively by the age of 21 ... who knows, maybe there is some way for you to relearn it ... i don't know ... not really my business.
See Also
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- Thought about: People piss me off: so damn glad I am not a people. with 1 viewings related by tag "we".
- Thought Nature in Me with 1 viewings related by tag "bozo sayings".
- Thought My Inside, My Soul, My Spirit with 1 viewings related by tag "bozo sayings".
- Thought Dialectics with 1 viewings related by tag "bozo sayings".
- Thought Meyers-Briggs Personality Types with 1 viewings related by tag "birdie".
- Thought An Awful Trick with 1 viewings related by tag "item 18919".
- Thought Togetherness by AC and Bernie Sanders with 0 viewings related by tag "we".
- Thought RS on War Evil with 0 viewings related by tag "birdie".
- Thought What we do to each other matters, for that is the very being of our humanity. with 0 viewings related by tag "bozo sayings".
- Thought Getting from I to We with 0 viewings related by tag "we".
- Thought Combination with 0 viewings related by tag "bozo sayings".
- Thought WE with 0 viewings related by tag "birdie".
- Thought The value of Tagging with 0 viewings related by tag "bozo sayings".
- Thought Timing with 0 viewings related by tag "bozo sayings".
- Thought Changing Society with 0 viewings related by tag "bozo sayings".
- Thought culture - is a useful Birdie with 0 viewings related by tag "birdie".
- Thought Tolerance with 0 viewings related by tag "bozo sayings".