Interperting the Yi King

About: TA GWO hex 34


re inquiry on facebook

How does one get "extraordinary boldness" from the yin at the top of the right trigram?


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The answer seems to be expressed on this page where Leggie (i presume) says, "I proceed to give an account of what we find in the Text, and how it is deduced from the figures".

Tags

  1. yi king
  2. interpertation
  3. inquiry

Comments


Seth says
choy 2015-11-23 12:29:37 19066
THe whole hex is about big excess & this is the final line.  Others are similar but in different circumstances vis a vis yangs & yins.

I don't see how that yields an interpretation of some subject (unknown) showing extraordinary boldness just because the top line is a yang.  How does one read that off the cube?

Mark de LA says
seth 2015-11-23 12:58:51 19066
in case of #44  how does the pattern of the hex indicate that "going in the beginning would lead into danger" ?
Read in the YiJing corresponding hex #40 = 4x6 in new version: http://wengu.tartarie.com/wg/wengu.php?l=Yijing&no=39
Also read essay on kethiung   in BC2

Seth says
correction, yin at top of right trigram.

Seth says
in case of #44  how does the pattern of the hex indicate that "going in the beginning would lead into danger" ?

Seth says
choy 2015-11-23 14:05:43 19066
The Yi King predates Confucius thousands of years ago. Many scholars have interpreted it over the millennia including Confucius. Don't expect that a simple conversation without your doing some research on your own to get you anywhere. Part of the "Right answers for the right questions ..." thingy is asking the right person in the right temperament the right question. The Yi is not really literal nor is it an oracle like "Dear Abbey ..." or your Astrology horoscope in the newspaper.  In the few I posted of GW's commentary my audience was mostly Breck & Keith. Nate presumably at least understood the basics although he is sucked into the LOA stuff.
I'm focusing somewhere else at this time.

mark, i'm not asking you how to interpret the Yi King ... certainly learning to do that would take a life time of study.  I won't repeat what i did ask, i don't know how to make it any clearer than i already have in my specific questions about #34 and #44. 

no problem ...it was just a question that occurred to me in my youth, and GW himself did not render any better answer than did you.  thanks for your efforts in any case  

Mark de LA says
seth 2015-11-23 19:27:58 19066
choy 2015-11-23 17:24:06 19066
seth 2015-11-23 14:48:25 19066
Woopse, it just dawned on me a better way to ask my question. 

If there are 64 different changes, then one could describe each one in its own right and the spelling of its name (or its internal structure) would be irrelevant ... but that is not the way this has been done.   It's like to describe a horse one starts by saying something like:  since "h" precedes "o", the beast has 4 legs.  It has always struck me as odd, that sans this grammar that i seek, the spelling (or binary structure) of the symbol could be said to have meaning ... yet a meaning all these sages represent it to have.
The Chinese pictographs are composites if you follow their etymology. The hexagrams are various arrangements of male & female forces or black/white or heaven/earth or any other polarity - all that you can have in six digit binary number.  Nothing mysterious there. GW cubed it. 4- elements, 12 zodiac signs & 6 planetary + one for the whole of it.  There are lots of maps.  Some of them map into the Tree of Live & the Tarot. 


yep. 

there is a binary patterns of the 64 hexagrams, and the 2 positional trigrams,  and that pattern can be mapped onto a cube. this is obvious and i already knew it.  From that known pattern how does one get interpretations like "extraordinary boldness from a yin at the top of the right trigram" or "going in the beginning would lead into danger"... those associations, those mappings, are simply not  established by the numeric structure of the HEX itself.  I don't think the ancient Chinese wisdom even though about the Tree of Life or the Tarot, or even perhaps the 12 signs of the Zoidiac ... so those cannot be the mappings. 

if you don't know, or don't care that i ever find out, my inquiry is moot to you ...ignore it. 
I don't think you really want to know.  Why would you anyway? You have a horse-shit attitude toward the whole thing anyway. Anyway a map & territory seem to be there doesn't it?  Maybe look at the table of Fu-Hsi page 0 in BC1 or less tabular version in the website. The trigrams map a bit more into the "territory".  You seem to be looking at map & asking the question how did those mountains get implied from that map. Maybe how did that street name come from that bridge over there. I don't have many answers for the kinds of almost arrogant line of questioning you are pursuing. I am hiding nothing from you nor playing an "occult game" for my own enjoyment. I have personal uses for it which usually have nothing to do with you.  Your tonality tells me that you really don't want to know but would rather pick apart GW & the rest for following hocus-pocus. Your windmill is still to joust at the "occult". You may or not find out some day that the lance is up your own arse. AC & others said several places that the use of an oracle has some value in developing your higher consciousness. The advice is not necessarily the point but the process may help one learn to interpret stuff from a different non personal point of view or even many not inclined by natural logic.  Mandalas & sigils are often used to communicate between people or want to preserve information without writing a whole lot of words. Like you said somewhere else you can't divine the meaning of the words here from the letters. Nor the nature of the sepiroth on the TofL from their round shape. I think I should probably leave it that. Stay grounded. GW tried to do that with the logic & math. You can do that by planting potatoes.  Good Luck.


Seth says
choy 2015-11-23 17:24:06 19066
seth 2015-11-23 14:48:25 19066
Woopse, it just dawned on me a better way to ask my question. 

If there are 64 different changes, then one could describe each one in its own right and the spelling of its name (or its internal structure) would be irrelevant ... but that is not the way this has been done.   It's like to describe a horse one starts by saying something like:  since "h" precedes "o", the beast has 4 legs.  It has always struck me as odd, that sans this grammar that i seek, the spelling (or binary structure) of the symbol could be said to have meaning ... yet a meaning all these sages represent it to have.
The Chinese pictographs are composites if you follow their etymology. The hexagrams are various arrangements of male & female forces or black/white or heaven/earth or any other polarity - all that you can have in six digit binary number.  Nothing mysterious there. GW cubed it. 4- elements, 12 zodiac signs & 6 planetary + one for the whole of it.  There are lots of maps.  Some of them map into the Tree of Live & the Tarot. 


yep. 

there is a binary patterns of the 64 hexagrams, and the 2 positional trigrams,  and that pattern can be mapped onto a cube. this is obvious and i already knew it.  From that known pattern how does one get interpretations like "extraordinary boldness from a yin at the top of the right trigram" or "going in the beginning would lead into danger"... those associations, those mappings, are simply not  established by the numeric structure of the HEX itself.  I don't think the ancient Chinese wisdom even though about the Tree of Life or the Tarot, or even perhaps the 12 signs of the Zoidiac ... so those cannot be the mappings. 

if you don't know, or don't care that i ever find out, my inquiry is moot to you ...ignore it. 

Seth says
choy 2015-11-24 00:19:33 19066
seth 2015-11-23 19:27:58 19066
choy 2015-11-23 17:24:06 19066
seth 2015-11-23 14:48:25 19066
Woopse, it just dawned on me a better way to ask my question. 

If there are 64 different changes, then one could describe each one in its own right and the spelling of its name (or its internal structure) would be irrelevant ... but that is not the way this has been done.   It's like to describe a horse one starts by saying something like:  since "h" precedes "o", the beast has 4 legs.  It has always struck me as odd, that sans this grammar that i seek, the spelling (or binary structure) of the symbol could be said to have meaning ... yet a meaning all these sages represent it to have.
The Chinese pictographs are composites if you follow their etymology. The hexagrams are various arrangements of male & female forces or black/white or heaven/earth or any other polarity - all that you can have in six digit binary number.  Nothing mysterious there. GW cubed it. 4- elements, 12 zodiac signs & 6 planetary + one for the whole of it.  There are lots of maps.  Some of them map into the Tree of Live & the Tarot. 


yep. 

there is a binary patterns of the 64 hexagrams, and the 2 positional trigrams,  and that pattern can be mapped onto a cube. this is obvious and i already knew it.  From that known pattern how does one get interpretations like "extraordinary boldness from a yin at the top of the right trigram" or "going in the beginning would lead into danger"... those associations, those mappings, are simply not  established by the numeric structure of the HEX itself.  I don't think the ancient Chinese wisdom even though about the Tree of Life or the Tarot, or even perhaps the 12 signs of the Zoidiac ... so those cannot be the mappings. 

if you don't know, or don't care that i ever find out, my inquiry is moot to you ...ignore it. 
I don't think you really want to know.  Why would you anyway? You have a horse-shit attitude toward the whole thing anyway. Anyway a map & territory seem to be there doesn't it?  Maybe look at the table of Fu-Hsi page 0 in BC1 or less tabular version in the website. The trigrams map a bit more into the "territory".  You seem to be looking at map & asking the question how did those mountains get implied from that map. Maybe how did that street name come from that bridge over there. I don't have many answers for the kinds of almost arrogant line of questioning you are pursuing. I am hiding nothing from you nor playing an "occult game" for my own enjoyment. I have personal uses for it which usually have nothing to do with you.  Your tonality tells me that you really don't want to know but would rather pick apart GW & the rest for following hocus-pocus. Your windmill is still to joust at the "occult". You may or not find out some day that the lance is up your own arse. AC & others said several places that the use of an oracle has some value in developing your higher consciousness. The advice is not necessarily the point but the process may help one learn to interpret stuff from a different non personal point of view or even many not inclined by natural logic.  Mandalas & sigils are often used to communicate between people or want to preserve information without writing a whole lot of words. Like you said somewhere else you can't divine the meaning of the words here from the letters. Nor the nature of the sepiroth on the TofL from their round shape. I think I should probably leave it that. Stay grounded. GW tried to do that with the logic & math. You can do that by planting potatoes.  Good Luck.


Well none of the things you are thinking about me are true of me at all.   It is so sad that you imagine this shit about me and don't seem to realize that you are constructing it yourself.  Problem is it gets in the way of your answering a simple inquiry for information which has noting to do with yourself.

But there is one thing that is true in what you said ... i do have an arrogance to try to understand this mystery ... I think it may help me understand the human predicament itself as it triangulates a lot of the map/territory/subjective/objective edges that have not changed over the eons. 
 
Anyway ...

after re thinking the edges of this matter, i think i have at least a hint of an outline of my answer.  I remember a very large book, written part in English and part in Chinese that CFR frequently consulted ... perhaps you even possess that book now.  So, obviously these interpretations that i wonder about, stem from CFR's understanding of the ancient Chinese wisdom itself.  That is strongly suggested by the vocabulary of  the words actually used in his interpertations.  I expect now, that if i put  CFR's interpretations from his documents side by side with the ones for that hex in that huge  book,  i would almost be able to see CFR's words right there in that book.   The idea that those words could be derived from the yins and yangs of the hexagrams themselves, i think must be discarded.  At least it must be discarded unless CFR himself wrote somewhere about how to do that derivation. 

Mark de LA says
choy 2015-11-24 08:02:34 19066
Here is another map of the hexes by element color coded I made years ago. GW named his Tai Shu after the hexes he & his tung yun threw each week since before we were born.
First one was B-W (block working), Second one was (G-W) Grammar (cube) Working, & then N-W (number working) matrices of numbers & tables) then it seems everything after that was a hexagram. In the later years bringing math back into it his weekly pages were named after a hex (probably the equinox as before)  plus a ming word for the sign of the zodiac.  For example the one for today P.1598 is titled khienmao issued 63-6-2-10-10-55-MON
fyi


IamanI says
The Big Giles 2-volume Chinese-English Dictionary may be what you remember. Binder is fragile, but the pages are on some kind of parchment like paper very sturdy.  They would not help. Ming dictionary references those pages - see BC2.  The Yi King predates Christ. GW claims to have moved on & included Christ as well as the Book of the Law.  I have a text file of the hexagram lines & thwans in their ming words form.  I have most of the ones in there. Believe me or not when I say that the literal ming translation in many cases does not even match the literal English poetry nor necessarily the extant Chinese content & is mostly sourced inspirationally rather than literal. I think they are mostly occult meanings as exposed in the pages of the commentary.
The Yellow Bridge Chinese website has a good dictionary & etymology, but is influenced by the Chicoms nowadays.  They have simplified the characters & obscured the etymology.  Each emperor of substance liked to revise the language - even as GW did with Ming.



Mark de LA says
seth 2015-11-24 15:47:40 19066
anyway, the answer to my question seems to be expressed on this page.  thanks for your help.
Glad it makes you happy

IamanI says
seth 2015-11-24 12:53:37 19066
IamanI 2015-11-24 12:34:51 19066
seth 2015-11-24 12:19:12 19066
IamanI 2015-11-24 11:12:44 19066
IamanI 2015-11-24 11:11:13 19066


 ... we call mapping words into reality, the purpose of using language

Don't you like to do it too?  
Yep. Spiritual reality is a bit of a challenge to grok otherwise we would not need a silly little word like grok to point there.  See how well it is working out for us here?


Well yes certainly  , that we don't yet have words that describe what is in "spiritual reality", is in fact one of the most salient edges of that self same thingey
 .  

that comes strongly to mind especially because of the experience i had last night.  i could say of it that "each edge i beheld, each otherness, had a distinct texture qualia" ... yet there is no way for you to get there yourself using those words
 
& GW's thingy about spiritual experience has to be recreated anew ....

P.1688 #5,4 65-3-1-2-10-33-TUE

" ... Here we are sure of ultimate success consisting of achievement of our purpose, i.e. by going forward to overcome danger involved in treading on tiger's tail. Good fortune comes because what is willed is done / Followed by /5 whose subject is in place of authority.  /4 occupies place of yin, hence, realising this, he thinks carefully & goes softly!  Spiritual experience, unlike physical, is not remembered, but must be recreated anew each time, often in a different way, only the results, not the method being the same.  Recognition spiritually this involves more positive action.  This approach is shown in application & interpretation of this fourth line. To see something spiritual we have to go where it is. "

~ so what word would you use to transcend all that & the fact it is a dynamic moving target.




Seth says
IamanI 2015-11-24 12:34:51 19066
seth 2015-11-24 12:19:12 19066
IamanI 2015-11-24 11:12:44 19066
IamanI 2015-11-24 11:11:13 19066


 ... we call mapping words into reality, the purpose of using language

Don't you like to do it too?  
Yep. Spiritual reality is a bit of a challenge to grok otherwise we would not need a silly little word like grok to point there.  See how well it is working out for us here?


Well yes certainly  , that we don't yet have words that describe what is in "spiritual reality", is in fact one of the most salient edges of that self same thingey
 .  

that comes strongly to mind especially because of the experience i had last night.  i could say of it that "each edge i beheld, each otherness, had a distinct texture qualia" ... yet there is no way for you to get there yourself using those words
 

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