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does edit on an item in the dev server change the item?

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Si says
Can't forking (other than the root comment) now only happen if two people press the quote button on an already quoted thread at the same time? It is not a seperate button, it's what happens naturally as people wrestle in this space.
Once one of those people, or a single person, submits a quoted comment then there is nothing else to fork on except the new composite comment.

Seth says

this is a new thread ... i just "forked" the comments on this item into 2 threads ... hopefully

Seth says

omg ... i was editing and my edit got forgotten .. and your quote won.

Seth says

hmmm ... just noticed ... quote no longert goes deeper in the tree ... er, when did that change ... or is my mind just going into a senior moment.  ... which of course seems like it works better smiley

Seth says
nathan 2015-12-12 14:25:18 [item 19178]
Can't forking (other than the root comment) now only happen if two people quote a quoted thread at the same time? It is not a button, it's what happens naturally as people wrestle in this space.
seth 2015-12-12 14:31:03 [item 19178]
i'm defining 2 things that happen ...
(1) you make a new thread - that is forking - this is done intentionally by the commentor - not a collision
(2) you continue deeper in the current thread
 
nathan 2015-12-12 14:33:44 [item 19178]
Well the 3rd situation actually happens quite a lot when people are here at the same time and does create a lot of clutter that gets hard to follow so shouldn't it be in the discussion?

One way to fix it is an atomized stream, like floodles and google documents use. Then the comments can recombine in a natural way.
seth 2015-12-12 14:39:48 [item 19178]
yes ... be i doubt that we can fix that in this *bonus* ... right?
nathan 2015-12-12 14:43:14 [item 19178]
That's true. But I am thinking about it. And I can say that for about another $1000 I can do that. Then another $500 to $700 is needed to do a full security audit and makeover. smiley Then this would be ready to rock and roll! Just saying. 

I really love how these comments flow now! 

well i can't fund that now .... er, Mark? ... prolly not ... so i will need to get external resources for that. ... hence the importance of growing our group niche

Si says
 I suppose it is entirely possible to notice if an edit-submt is posting to a deleted item, and if so fork it out instead. That's shouldn't be hard. Do you think it is necessary?

I still don't like forking at all so I'm on the fence about this one. What I would like is for comments to always recombine in chronological order with the ones you have not seen yet highlighted. That's the ideal system in my mind ... but would take an atomized stream or similar technology to implement. 

Si says
One thing I can say for sure. If you and Mark or anyone and anyone starts commenting fast in real time it's going to create a *forking* hell. There will be a massive trail of aborted and partially followed forks. But wasn't that the way it was before? ... and without the additional feature of auto cleaning up when posts don't collide? So I guess, it's going to be better, but still a *forking* hell if you ask me. I would rather use FB for that level of interaction, until comments can re-thread themselves here. laugh

Seth says
seth 2015-12-12 14:41:50 [item 19178]
hmmm ... just noticed ... quote no longert goes deeper in the tree ... er, when did that change ... or is my mind just going into a senior moment.  ... which of course seems like it works better smiley
nathan 2015-12-12 14:49:42 [item 19178]
It's not clearthy which you are saying works better. I LOVE how it looks now. So very readable. It reads like a string of comments and I actually read the other stuff more now. But which are you liking? The structure is the same, it could simply be a user preference as to which CSS is active.

oh i am with you there ... works much better this way ... but i think i need to revise some of the wording i said in the body now ... it is not a delve down a tree ... it is a continue on the same branch that quote-reply does.   the old system was not that way.  Kudos for the change yes

Seth says

Please note the new wording in the body: 

A person can comment one of two ways

(1) Continue some particular comment thread
(2) start a new comment thread


We may want to revisit the decision not to delete the root ... as that creates a situation that breaks that flow. 

Seth says
nathan 2015-12-12 15:00:20 [item 19178]
 I suppose it is entirely possible to notice if an edit-submt is posting to a deleted item, and if so fork it out instead. That's shouldn't be hard. Do you think it is necessary?

I still don't like forking at all so I'm on the fence about this one. What I would like is for comments to always recombine in chronological order with the ones you have not seen yet highlighted. That's the ideal system in my mind ... but would take an atomized stream or similar technology to implement. 
seth 2015-12-12 15:32:23 [item 19178]
forking is essential because that is the way people think ... especially when they are of separate minds.   if everyone could just progress directly forward to the best culmination, then we wouldnt need to fork.
nathan 2015-12-12 15:40:11 [item 19178]
This is true in general. And at the same time, I have yet to see a system, including floodles, that doesn't quickly degenerate into an oblivious mess when forking happens naturally during a normal discussion. As far as I can tell, it has yet to be invented. FBI is no exception. wink
well yes of course i agree.  

I think this is a characteristic of the human interaction itself and the representation of that in the plane of the written commentary must necessarily reflect it.  

So it is a matter of, can we focus together ... or not ... if not, then the representations we leave behind  will look like decay it was later on.

Seth says
seth 2015-12-12 15:28:39 [item 19178]
Please note the new wording in the body: 

A person can comment one of two ways

(1) Continue some particular comment thread
(2) start a new comment thread


We may want to revisit the decision not to delete the root ... as that creates a situation that breaks that flow. 
nathan 2015-12-12 15:35:26 [item 19178]
Yes. Now that all comment packages contain a nice clear copy of the root right at the top, in slightly larger font, and no one can tamper with it, it is not so necessary to keep the real root.

In fact, I envision, if one does allow forking that is, that one could click on any comment in the quoted block and fork right there, including the original root.

The one thing the original gives at the moment is a place you can edit your thought and keep clarifying it without danger of of your edits getting forked out of existence. And again, properly threaded comments would solve that, but there you go.
seth 2015-12-12 15:39:57 [item 19178]
yes i agree yes.   since you now highlight the root, then given people cooperatingt, leaving the root behind is not necessary ... and just tends to clutter.    Can we just put that feature in abayence now?
nathan 2015-12-12 15:48:05 [item 19178]
Okay done. Here is the proof.
  //"commentId": isRoot ? '' : cid, // only delete if this is not the root comment
  "commentId": cid, // fuck that shit, just delete it

What is interesting is that it could be possible to edit your own comments inside the comment package. This is because all comments now have an ID and those id's are inside with the comments in the package. It would be possible to click on them and edit them - in that package. Forked packages are yet another matter. And you would still have the same *forking* problem if two people were editing at the same time. But it is interesting to know that one could potentially do anything with the info inside the comment block. It has full integrity.  

Kudos, you are master indeed !

Seth says
seth 2015-12-12 15:51:58 [item 19178]
I must say, i really do like the new feel of this yesyes ... and i even think it has helped us focus right here in this dialogue
nathan 2015-12-12 16:00:13 [item 19178]
Yea, I agree, on both, since you edited that to be a dual concept. 
well i added the second thought in an edit, if that is what you mean.   i just happened to notice how much better this is at focusing than the old way ... we would, me thinks, have gotten lost.

Seth says
seth 2015-12-12 14:38:31 [item 19178]
omg ... i was editing and my edit got forgotten .. and your quote won.
nathan 2015-12-12 14:54:23 [item 19178]
Yep. You either have to only edit root comments, which never go away, or be really really quick now. cheeky
seth 2015-12-12 16:00:31 [item 19178]
well lengthy editing getting lost, regardless of any other considerations, me thinks must always be a
it will truly piss off a new user. 
nathan 2015-12-12 16:03:38 [item 19178]
Did you read my *forking* solution to that above? To recap, I can simple detect if an edit you are posting is going into the bitbucket by virtue of the post already having been deleted by another quicker dude, and if so, simply fork it instead.
ok that must have been in the back of my mind.   Yes i think that is the solution.

Si says
nathan 2015-12-12 15:15:52 [item 19178]
One thing I can say for sure. If you and Mark or anyone and anyone starts commenting fast in real time it's going to create a *forking* hell. There will be a massive trail of aborted and partially followed forks. But wasn't that the way it was before? ... and without the additional feature of auto cleaning up when posts don't collide? So I guess, it's going to be better, but still a *forking* hell if you ask me. I would rather use FB for that level of interaction, until comments can re-thread themselves here. laugh
seth 2015-12-12 15:36:30 [item 19178]
well if we always delete even the root comment, will that not improve the things you are predicting here?
Yes, but only like maybe 20% at best. The biggest flotsam will be lots and lots of forks created by people posting, and/or editing, at the same time. The only help is that the latest stuff is always at the bottom. But there will still be a backlog of collided stuff that to truly keep up with each other, all people will have to keep going back and looking for that forked thought they may have missed, and there will be many of those because the high activity will cause lots of collisions ... and when you find one and it has a nugget you want to respond to in it, then here comes another *forking* opportunity for more children to be created.

It's really the exact same thing that happened at floodles that created HUGE floodles but without the tree lines to tie things together. They will just be clumps of flotsam with the latest on the bottom. So either a person will have to keep going back, and keep going back yet again, sometimes quite a distance, to keep up, or ... it will be like a room full of people with Alzheimer always conversing about whatever is at the end of the stack and nothing else, even if what is at the end randomly changes due to another *forking* by someone else. That's how I see it playing out. wink

Seth says
nathan 2015-12-12 17:56:58 [item 19178]
Now on the bright side of the *forking* issue at hand. I do have some ideas that would apply here even without atomic threading.
  1. Ability to zap a fork you have looked at and don't want to respond to. Then it will disappear from your feed until, if ever, someone else adds to it. That will individually clear your flotsam to only those *forking* things you actually care about.
  2. Ability for, at least the curator, maybe everyone in a group, to shuffle off topic items to a holding or background bin for the post where they can go to be saved for posterity or whatever. An evolution of this idea would be the post-tabs I mentioned elsewhere here today.
Those two things would probably cut all the *forking* flotsam by about 75 to 80 percent. That could be very useful! cheeky
seth 2015-12-13 09:00:07 [item 19178]
this is there are many different types of dialugue ... many different tpes of roles that people adopt in them.  

role wise, the current permissions model, is bsed upon the group ... not a person.  so right now in this group fbi we are all the same person really ... but that is not the normal case in fbi.  normally i am King in my blog, and anyone else is King in their blog, and in mine they are allowed to comment at my pleasure.  so what we change needs to respect that untill we can change the whole model ... perhsps going to a two tiered permissions where the person has their own permissions as well as just the group. 

then too the texture that leaves in the river is another thing entirely.

then too the texture that leaves in the news is something else.

then too what happens to what happens to your group, the river, and the news, when there are 100s of people using fbi and not just 2s. 

so it is a hairy thing to get into on a fixed price project ... i'm game ... i'll leave it up to you how deeply you want to get into it. 
nathan 2015-12-13 09:05:01 [item 19178]
Hum. You don't seem in the vortex today. None of that really has anything to do with what I said. I'll bring it up again when you are "back in flow". smiley

In the mean time. Enjoy hiding flotsam you don't want to see and bring it back anytime with the user menu. Or whatever you want it called if not "user".
hmmm ... maybe ... maybe not ... i'm actually quite rested and getting into the flow.    playing catch up with you at the moment.   but please don't discard or degrade what i said above ... it relates to where we are in changing fbi ... where i am ... and what we can practically do together in these nows.   when you say, i'm not in the flow, ... wouldn't it ring truer even to you were you to say, i am not in nathan's flow ?   ... so maybe give me a moment.

Seth says

Or whatever you want it called if not "user"

yea user was probably a bad choice.   it was supposed to be user settings ... a personal place.  almost the user's feed ... that is not very different than G+.

Seth says
 i see it more like reading email,  you read it, and you can maybe check show all unread. 

What about my idea of a {like, dislike, read} button on each item and each comment of a item?   [you never responded to that from a long way back].

So if a person is trying to keep up with a large dialog, they can click that they read it,  and then it changes color, or even re settings dissapears, like your hide.  If they want to like it, then that implies that they read it.  Same with dislike.  

Seth says
nathan 2015-12-13 09:52:48 [item 19178]
The issue at hand has been about being able to have a dialog without being overwhelmed by *forkigng* flotsam. That's all I wrote about and all my solutions apply to. All this stuff about users and groups is quite independent of that. What I am interested in applies to any dialog anywhere in any group and even on Facebook etc.

I provided a simple filter. It is totally benign because it is implemented in your browser only and you have full control over it. I think it will clean up conversation considerably because it allows a person to personally control what they are seeing without having any effect on anyone else.  It show you in your user menu how many items are hidden on the page you are viewing. If you want to see those you just use the user menu unhide and they will appear and have a green background. Then you can permanently bring them back or just leave it as it is.  It's really nice. Lets you focus to your current train of thought, and adapt when your focus changes. New comments always appear  because they will have new id's, even new forkings of ones you have hidden.

This was a simple 30 minute plugin I created last night. It has zero impact on the site itself and can be uninstalled just by removing the plugin without any page or code change.

However, simplicity aside, I think it is super powerful in allowing you to selectively focus and keep what you are reading down to what you want to see. You can use it like an "I've read that" button.
seth 2015-12-13 10:04:51 [item 19178]
Ok, ...

But i still think your HIDE ... is just a person marking something as READ .   And i want to explore a single gadge  where you can {like, dislike, or-just-mark-read} button.   I wrote more about that in the thread above ... (or below laugh)
nathan 2015-12-13 10:11:16 [item 19178]
Yes. There is lots of good stuff in that area ... but those things are more integrated features. This is just a focusing filter for you (or any individual) to use personally. It's only in your browser. No one else sees what you are doing or hiding. So it is really terrific for you to use to mark your own things read in the way that fits you. The other features do things in ways that affect others too. With this, you don't have to think about that. And your ability to re-show and re-select the stuff very easily makes it a great contextual focusing tool. It's clean, simple, and allows you to really cut down the size of what you are looking at in a given moment ... especially when the dialog gets HUGE. smiley
seth 2015-12-13 10:15:48 [item 19178]
ok i get it ...new feature really.   so where is the data stored?
nathan 2015-12-13 10:19:00 [item 19178]
Data is stored entirely in the browser. Not in a cookie, in the browser database, which works fine in all browsers even ie6. This of course means that if you move to another computer you won't have the same hidden stuff ... but it's soo easy to see what is hidden that is not a problem. It's a focusing tool for the moment, not a long term thing like real "likes" and so forth. And I just added a "clear all" button to the menu if you want to just reset it on that page.

kewl, i'll play with it yes

Si says
seth 2015-12-13 10:23:24 [item 19178]
is the browser database shared on same computer cross browsers?  what is the buzzword this is going by in the industry?  first time i heard that it had been actually implemented, though there has been a lot of talk of it in the past.
nathan 2015-12-13 10:30:56 [item 19178]
That's odd you haven't heard of it. It's been around since the late 90's and usable in all browsers since about 2005. It's all I ever use for browser based applications. I only use cookies for login session ids and such. It is not shared between browsers, only between windows or tabs in the same browser. It is kind of like what you are using cookies for but much easier to work with and without the low data storage limits cookies have. I often store entire images I am working on in localStorage and other stuff. It's what makes interactive browser applications practical.
seth 2015-12-13 10:35:17 [item 19178]
my edit should perhaps have given us a collision-fork ... i added a hyperlink to HTML5 storage ... which got lost.   so maybe the collison-forks are not totally working yet.
 
That's true. I have not added auto forking when an item is already found deleted. That's still on the tuit list. 

Seth says
wiggy woo ... i edited this item to hide comments from the river and the body of the item got wiped out.

Si says
nathan 2015-12-13 13:02:36 [item 19178]

Well that is cool! enlightened

I just discovered that I can go to the *river* instead of the horrendous *news page* and then just zap things I've read with the comment hider and then just go back to the *river* when I want to see what's new. It's much more readable and interesting than the *news* page and works pretty much used that way as I would have expected *news* to work. Werid! But Nice too! laugh I can even use the newer *hide all* to bring my *river news* up to date!
Okay, well ALMOST way cool!
I figured out that this only works for post that don't have their comments turned off.  But for those, it pretty much works perfectly! smiley