Feature: Roaming profiles are here

I had a brainstorm about these last night and created them today. “All in a days work” I guess you might say. laugh
 
Roaming profiles are super simple and build on the model already here so try not to make them complicated by thinking about them in terms of other user models.

We already have groups as identities. We also already have a special author in each group, lets call that the root author, who is the person who’s name is the same as the group name. For instance seth@seth or da@da.

Now we have the ability to make that special root author a full identity. When you log in as a root author, your group settings page will have an extra root password field. It is initially unset. Once you set it then this root author becomes an identity and all further logins of that root author must use the new root password, not the normal group password. If you want to make them the same that’s fine, you just have to set the root password to create the identity. It’s nice they can be separate so that root authors can have special control over the group down the road.

So why is this roaming? Well because the first time you sign in to a root author identity, you pick up a roaming profile from that identity. It stays with you in your browser no matter what author or group you sign in as unless you sign out and sign back in as another root author. This does not mean you are seth@seth everywhere. You are whomever you sign in as in any group just like always. The roaming profile is purely to give you a stable identity for settings, privileges, auto sign in to groups, and anything else you need it for in the system. If you sign in as seth@fbi you will still post as seth@fbi even if you are roaming as seth@seth.

Once you give seth@seth a root password then every time you sign in as seth@seth in any browser you get a roaming profile for seth@seth and it stays with you from then on until you sign out or shut down the browser. All your hidden comment history, and any other settings, are then yours and get saved back to seth@seth whenever they are changed, and no matter who else you become traveling from group to group.

At the moment the only property in a roaming profile is the hidden comments dictionary. You can go to any browser and sign in as seth@seth and have all your hidden comments re-hide themselves magically. As we decide to we can add more properties. The Nickel Bank will be open for business for personal whims. Hey, I got to pay for this work somehow.  

Summary:
  1. A root author has the same name as the group.
  2. A root author can become an identity by assigning the author a root password.
  3. When you sign in to a root author identity you pick up a roaming profile and it roams with you.
  4. If you have a roaming profile, it will be shown at the top of the group settings dialog like this.

Modify group fbi settings, roaming as da@da


This is brand new software. Please report all bugs here. Thanks!

Note1: At some point I plan to allow Facebook and other services login to a root author, so keep that in mind. Group names here are super important because they can become identities. We should be thinking about how to manage and monetize that.

Note2: Currently there is no way to destroy an identity. Once set, you can’t unset it’s password, only change it. However, the administrators@administrators identity can change root passwords of other groups just as normal administrators can change passwords of other groups, in case a root password get’s lost.

Tags

  1. nfeatures
  2. roaming profile
  3. new feature
  4. sign in
  5. root author
  6. identity
  7. authentication
  8. item 1946
  9. mark no help
  10. setting

Comments


Seth says
nathan@fbi 2015-12-27 20:28:23 [item 19406#39490]
You can store user pictures in the profile. You can store bio’s. You can store any manner of settings and tables and arrays and binary data you wish. All you do is use a simple javascript reference to the myUser object and you can put anything in there in any way you want and it roams along with you and is stored in your root identity.
how is the “root identity” stored in a SQL table?

Si says
seth 2015-12-27 20:21:06 [item 19406#39487]
i think i need to see how it works for an essential “settable” setting … for example how can it give  give us  the ability of an author to post to other groups without having to sing on to those groups.   In other words how do we create the settings:
  • {seth writePermissionFor fbi, niche, administrators, ai}
  • where would we see those settings?
nathan@fbi 2015-12-27 20:24:50 [item 19406#39488]
All that is is a dictionary of groups and passwords. Very similar to the dictionary I keep that allows you to automatically get the password signing in from group to group right now. It can easily be stored in the roaming profile. Anything can be stored in it. It is a JSON object and can store up to 4Gig of data in the database if needed.  
seth 2015-12-27 20:27:47 [item 19406#39489]
where is the profile stored?
nathan@fbi 2015-12-27 20:28:39 [item 19406#39491]
In the root identity.
seth 2015-12-27 20:30:01 [item 19406#39492]
where is the “root identity” thingy?
nathan@fbi 2015-12-27 20:33:58 [item 19406#39494]
The already existing properties field in the group table, for that group. You already had that field. I just added a JSON object to it for the roaming profile. There are no limitations on how it is used. I suppose if you actually put 4Gig of stuff in it your browsing would slow to a crawl. But there is no real need to do that and it would still work.  If you want to move the object to a quad table someday, that would be a cinch. Just run a query to move it and change a couple other queries a little, that’s all. The system is not dependent on where the roaming profile lives. 
seth 2015-12-27 20:42:50 [item 19406#39495]
okay i see what you’ve done.  

the autor’s permissions are part of the group with his name. 

what is unclear to me is: what that does for us that just letting an author have his own permissions quite apart from any group, do?  Why not just have a author identity … a new table {author, JSON PERMISSION PAIRS} ?
Because this nicely integrates with your existing model … it flows very nicely leveraging the group as identity idea and making it work fully. Of course, there is no reason, as I said in another comment, that you can’t move the profiles anywhere anytime. If you wanted to shift to some other place to store them and some other model of logging in, that would be trivial. It’s just a plugin.

Si says
nathan@fbi 2015-12-27 20:46:15 [item 19406#39496]
Still not sure what your issues are. This is an extremely versatile implementation.  It’s implemented as a plugin so it can be thrown in our out on a whim. It has no dependence on the database or the rest of the code. It can store absolutely anything you want to store for the user and makes all of it available to both the browser and the server at all times. The profile follows you wherever you go and automatically saves back to your root identity anytime anything in it is changed. It is easy to understand and simple to manage. There really is no limitations or down sides to it. It’s basically a flawless implementation of a user profile as fits this system.

I told you that you had no idea what a tigger could come up with right?  
seth 2015-12-27 20:59:12 [item 19406#39499]
not sure i have any issue … just thinking out loud here … it is quite a bit different from each author having there own settings quite apart from any group that they are permissioned for.   it adds the assumption that a person in inextrabaly associated to the one special group with his name.

so I become seth@seth … that is clear … my picture and my advatar and my FB account and my G+ account are all stored in that profile.  right?

what then is fbi@fbi … is it a person … must it be authenticated with a email, an Facebook account, etc? 

who is ai@ai … niche@niche … what special properties are granted to those “identities” ?


 
Currently fbi@fbi is not activated as an identify. No additional password for it has been filled in. It never needs to be activated either. It can remain a level group as it always has been and nothing will change. If someday you want to have a moderator for that group, then you can activate the root password … but even if you do just to allow a moderator you still don’t have to use the roaming profile for anything unless you want or need to. It’s a “add what you need as you need it” implementation that starts out with things as they always have been and then moves up the ladder as you want more.

The only one crux in the system is that group names are not infinite, especially really good ones. But that’s not unusual. At Google you can only be whatever email address you can come up with that is not already taken. You said you didn’t think this was a problem because of the smaller size of each domain. But even if it becomes a problem, could handle it like Facebook does and just allow a name alias on top of the base group name which could end up being unpronounceable in a large system. And there are plenty of other tiggerable ways to handle it too. 

Seth says
nathan@fbi 2015-12-27 20:56:17 [item 19406#39498]
Another nice thing about the way this hooks in currently is that it gives you a bunch of bonus features in your current model. For instance, it gives you the ability to have a separate password for the root author of a group and thus the idea of a group moderator or admin is automatically born. Also, by implementing the triggering of the identity to the password it leveraged the existing dialogs for group management and login without having to add more code and more possible confusing paths. It also made administrators@administrators automatically able to operate on root identities without any extra code or screens added. These and a few more are just nice perks that came along naturally because this model fits so well.
i do see how it flows naturally from the group identity and current permissions with very little change to existing code.  yes

Si says
seth 2015-12-27 21:19:31 [item 19406#39502]
ok thinking out loud here …

Le’t say that we want to grant moderator prividledges in fbi to some person.  So really we would probably grant those prividleges to nathan .. and his actions as moderator would be done by him.  One such permission might be {nathan canBackRoomIn fbi}  … er, so that would be written {fbi@fbi canBackRoomIn fbi} and to exercise those moderations you would need to sign on to fbi@fbi with its root password and tag there to the back room.  Or maybe I could do it.  So i still got to sign on to another group to exercise my prividleges … which is a pain.   Then too when you say … hey wait .. why are my improtant thingys getting put out of sight … you will see not that I did it, but rather that anybody could have done it who knew the root for fbi@fbi.   The real person is loosing their identity to the group. 
nathan@fbi 2015-12-27 21:28:41 [item 19406#39504]
That’s only one way to factor things. Any factoring you want can go on top of this. There really are no limitations like that. Those limitations are in the model you are imagining there. But for the record, I hate rule based permissions systems. They suck. They become unwieldy very quickly and administrator nightmares. Windows NT has rule based permissions and you have to go to a special school to learn how to use it full scale and then higher a full time guy to maintain it. Unix on the other hand is model based and is super simple and robust and less hackable and you don’t need schooling for it or do you have to maintain it once you have something set up. Rules, for any system, simply suck as a way to manage things, weather it’s permissions, or data, or anything else. I know everyone thinks they should be great, but they are not in actual applicaiton.

But anyway, ANY system, rule based or otherwise, can be layed over this system in any model you want. Whatever way you think would make doing something easy, that way could be a module over this one.
seth 2015-12-27 21:33:54 [item 19406#39506]
i don’t know what a non-rule-based-permissioned system would look like?  A permission is a rule, it says {if your are A, you can do X} … what is the alternative that you are talking about?
I think you know enough about Windows NT and Unix to know the difference. In WinNT you write rules, just like you show above. In Unix you just set some flags, a user, and optionally a group and that takes care of everything. Yes, those flags are back up by programming rules, but the administrators don’t have to write them out or maintain their horrid complexity as the system grows. They just set flags and add users and groups.

Si says
The traditional user centric singular login model quickly grows to a hairy mess in nearly any system … especially when MRE get’s involved. The Gemini duality of this system seems to avoid all that in some rather unique ways. I’m actually kind of liking it and realizing that it could solve a lot of the hairy problems that made Floodles a mess at the moment. When I get back to Floodle land I may implement this model there.    

Si says
seth 2015-12-27 21:25:19 [item 19406#39503]
so say i have some style settings that are near and dear to my heart.   if i have to sing on to fbi@fbi to get some power there, do i loose my own style settings?
nathan@fbi 2015-12-27 21:31:00 [item 19406#39505]
Not right now, not normally, and even if fbi@fbi is a full identity, it could still have a checkbox that says “don’t take on this identity” and you could have a checkbox in your own profile for your favorite identy that also says “don’t take on other identities”. With the ability to store anything in the roaming profile, all things like that are almost point and click to add. Cut and paste actually.
seth 2015-12-27 21:38:15 [item 19406#39508]
huh?  how do i get a special power without taking on that identity that has that special power?
nathan@fbi 2015-12-27 21:43:23 [item 19406#39509]
The system would see you logged in as fbi@fbi and hence you would have powers granted accordingly. But because your styles and other things that are important to you come from your roaming profile, which you don’t have to assume from fbi, you can stay stylin as the hellcat you are! This is the beauty of a roaming profile. You can essentially be logged in two ways at the same time. One for the group you sign in to, and one for your identity. It merges the FBI model of truly anonymous group login with the idea of a consistent stable identity.
seth 2015-12-27 21:48:24 [item 19406#39511]
how many “roming profiles” can i have at the same time?  I had though it would be just one.  
nathan@fbi 2015-12-27 21:50:37 [item 19406#39512]
Yes. I only intended for just one. Nothing you have said so far requires otherwise. You have your sign in to a group which grants you powers there as has always been the case but now can be extended easily. Then you have your roaming profile which follows you around. Both apply to all situations and can interact in any way you desire.
seth 2015-12-27 21:57:23 [item 19406#39513]
well if we had a true author identity, you would not need to sign on to another gorup to get powers there.  You would just say {personA hasPowerAIn groupB} … look ma, no signing on and signing out to groups … which is one of the biggest complaints with doing stuff at fastblogit now.
All you are talking about is auto sign-in. We already have a partial implementation of that for passwords. With the roaming profile, there can be a full implementation based on any criteria you can whim up. Even stupid rules like you wrote if that is what you want. You could have a dictionary in the profile full up with those kinds of rules to your hearts content that were run as you traversed groups. I am not going to write that for you, but the system allows for things like that easily. You almost seem stuck on what IS. I told you I have only implemented ONE property so far in the roaming profile, that’s your hidden comments and they follow you around and work in any browser now. The sky is the limit on what else can be added.  

Si says
seth 2015-12-27 22:01:59 [item 19406#39514]
thig is … a person is not a group.  whatever you see in the code notwistanding.   these are different thingies in reality. 
nathan@fbi 2015-12-27 22:07:42 [item 19406#39516]
Well that is the exact opposite of what you said about 2 weeks ago when we had the first conversation about log-in. But it hardly matters what you SAID. Right now I leverage that a group IS an identity, of one or many, to allow assuming an identity and getting a roaming profile. But it really matters not how you get your roaming profile, it only matters that there is such a thing and that it is separate from normal group sign in and powers, in order for all to flow smoothly.
seth 2015-12-27 22:18:03 [item 19406#39518]
Well  a group can have many authors.   And autors can write in many groups.  That is a reality apart from the code and the code should reflect that reality.   I have no idea what i said that you thought conflicts with that.

The old system had no author identity … it never entered into any permissions whatsoever … it was a fyi associated with postings … nothing more.  

But now we are giving authors a true identity … secured by password or fb login or whatever. 

Anyway you haven't answered my basic challenge.   How does a author with special stylings get those at the sane tine as he gets some powers only associated to some group?  How does a autor post to a group without having to sign on to it?  Maybe if i could see those things working i could see the beauty in your system.
I answered both of those. (sigh) Author can have both his own styles and group powers because he can have both a roaming profile and a sign in to the group he is working in at the moment. Next. Author can be auto signed in ANYWHERE he knows the password to. Once he has signed in ONCE, his profile knows how he did it and can auto sign him in forever more or until he is locked out by change of his authorization there. That about does it. And that’s only one possible way for both of those. There are no limits here. By having both a profile that travels with you and the powers you get by having authorization to a group, you have any combination of anything that one can imagine. That’s it.

Si says
nathan@fbi 2015-12-27 22:13:28 [item 19406#39517]
How many times have you said you like that the system shows “seth” instead of “seth@seth” in the comments because it encourages people to “create their own group identities”? This has been a thrust and goal of yours for a long time, long before the tigger bounced here. This natural way of logging in that I have here supports that goal and encourages people to create groups for themselves. Doesn’t prevent ANYTHING, but does encourage that … that being something you have often said was highly desirable … until today.

I think you just need sleep and to actually USE the system. Right now your just bouncing around it like a pool ball with no pocket in sight because you got ousted out of your cozy spot. That’s what I think IMHO.  
seth 2015-12-27 22:21:14 [item 19406#39519]
true .. we both need some sleep here heart
like

Si says
About the models
Another thing is that the “auto login” model is far better than rule based models in my opinion. It gets the same result but in a much easier to mange way. The groups can revoke access simply by changing credentials instead of having to change some rule in a table or somewhere. That’s far easier for joe blow to manage and understand. The author too only needs to know the credentials the first time and then he always has access … simpler than going somewhere and getting added by a rule, a rule which may interact with other rules in all kinds of weird ways the more rules there are. It’s simple. Here’s a key. Use it once and you always have access here. If we don’t want you here we will just change the lock. Everyone can understand that easily and everyone can use it as easily as any other way of setting rules … in most cases fewer steps involved too.

But again, either model could be implemented here. The underlying roaming profile can support any model you can dream up.  

Si says
seth 2015-12-28 03:19:18 [item 19406#39523]
I think i see what this does now.  This gives a group its settings.  It is a set of name valued pairs associated with the group.  

You just have a unique way of authenticaing a person to those settings … ie using the “person” with the name of the group.

When i think of it that way it makes total sense.

I was mixing that up with true person settings … which would be a set of named value pairs associated with a person.
I am glad it is making sense. The aspects you are noting are actually the lesser important, the ones that can easily shift if desired. The more important aspect is the idea of the dual identities. One that roams with you, and the other which is your identity in the group you are currently signed into. It’s that duality model and how it travels that successfully merges personal autonomy with a group identity or pen name.

Right now we have full “person settings” in the roaming profile. Don’t discount that they are FULL. The current method of launching into those settings is through the root author of a group, but that is only incidental and used because it flows nicely from your existing model and how things are displayed and used here. In truth, the personal roaming profile could be launched from any means, a Facebook login, or anything else. It does not have to be launched from a root author sign in. That’s just a nice way to do it.

Where the user profile is stored is also not really part of the model and shouldn’t be considered when thinking about it. I happened to store them in the group table because it was a convenient existing place and fit well with the root author sign in idea. But all login code flows through just two places and the storage location of the roaming profile could be shifted anywhere. What is important is that it is a JSON blob that is made available to both PHP and browser side code at all times. That’s what gives it the ability to bake a cake and let you eat it too.  

Si says
Based on our dialog I made a small change. Instead of “picking up” the roaming profile of any root author you sign into, you only pick up the profile the first time you sign into a root author. i.e. initial login. To pick up a different roaming profile you must deliberately sign out and sign back in as another root author.

This is a better way than things like checkboxes to determine when the roaming profile shifts. It’s natural and fully under user control. Your someone until you sign out and back in as someone else

Seth says
Well philosophically speaking here …
yes there are two ways to obtain identity,
   (1) from a group, and
   (2) from your self external to all groups.  On the internet a person’s individual identify has become secured by password (with or without email validation), and/or authentication by other social sites, and/or even a finger print on a smart phone, and i can imagine in the halls of the pentagon by face recognition.  

Obtaining identity from a group is contested by contemporary politics, see identity groups … not to mention religious concerns, see [not sure yet].  I have mentioned that from the opposite perspective of a individuality branding a group with their own ego in Evita - Eva Perone and also in trump

Personally i like to be myself and live in this world authentically as Seth Russell wherever i go, on line or off line.  Err … unless i am into some other story or fantasy … but even then i make up a name that i call that identity and then stay in role there … for example you may have met me as Patty Cutman back around the turn of the century  … today you may meet me as _________  like i was going to tell you laugh.

I do not, however, choose to go as a guest or an anonymous geek online.  i feel that subverts what we are doing here together.

to be continued …  don’t fork me yet ...

Si says
nathan@fbi 2015-12-28 12:28:42 [item 19406#39607]
seth 2015-12-28 12:29:43 [item 19406#39608]
thanks … needed one of those ...
like

Si says
seth 2015-12-28 12:39:52 [item 19406#39611]
note how long and deep are the connections of this to identity in this mind space.
nathan@fbi 2015-12-28 12:47:02 [item 19406#39613]
Yep. So complicated people used to make things. This one is almost identical to what I did yesterday, but so much more complex in implementation! 1946
Just use JSON and screw all that hash table and cookie muddle!  
seth 2015-12-28 13:59:13 [item 19406#39627]
yes … and interesting to note how Mark was thinking along these lines 10 years ago.

My major concern is the possible tree to possible ways a person gains identity here.  All the ways they come into a domain must flow naturally and obviously to the people comming in.    Me thinks that an identity based upon person and not group is what most people will expect.  Gleaning identity from a group is just not the way i think about this. 
 
Well, maybe stop thinking. That’s my job. I’m trained in that shit … thinking.  
seth 2015-12-28 14:08:28 [item 19406#39630]
come on now … certainly you know that is never going to happen wink frownlaugh
nathan@fbi 2015-12-28 14:15:40 [item 19406#39632]
Perhaps. But you don’t usually know everything the tigger knows … and that’s not because the tigger is so great, he is, but not that. It’s because the tigger knows that ALL flows from his thoughts … it is so much easier to think when you know that. Saves a lot of wasted time and effort and hurt and unproductivity. When you know this as an absolute, then you are motivated to think what you want and nothing else … and then that is all that happens. Shit happens only to those who don’t know how to think, or occasionally after a big meal.
seth 2015-12-28 14:20:34 [item 19406#39634]
sigh … am not steeping in that stuff now.
nathan@fbi 2015-12-28 14:25:26 [item 19406#39637]
Okay. It’s still true. But it is also outside your box, your model. I don’t have any need to talk about it. I simply say it to be an example for those who might want to think like me. The more breadcrumbs I drop, the easier I am to follow, for those who desire to follow.
seth 2015-12-28 14:33:53 [item 19406#39641]
okay … and i am looking at your breadcrumbs … don’t think i am not.   thing is i have my own … and i see how they go … and i also see how we fall in error and prejudice and how things change in relationship to each other … that you are infallible is incredulous, irrespective of your grandness. 
We are all infallible. We never fail, we only achieve outcomes of experience. We are here to experience and there is no right or wrong thing to experience. The idea of fallibility was something pushed by the church, around a similar time the church invented hell, to control people. Hell doesn’t exist either.

Mark de LA says
choy 2015-12-29 09:04:22 [item 19406#39725]
How do we assign a root password to an already existing group/user combo? question
seth 2015-12-29 09:06:25 [item 19406#39726]
i think you can only do it if your author name is also the name of the group. 
Yep, that’s what I meant by the group/user combo. For example I am choy@choy – how do I assign myself a root password & the roaming stuff – has it been created yet?

funnypages says
choy 2015-12-29 09:04:22 [item 19406#39725]
How do we assign a root password to an already existing group/user combo? question
seth 2015-12-29 09:06:25 [item 19406#39726]
i think you can only do it if your author name is also the name of the group. 
nathan@fbi 2015-12-29 09:07:36 [item 19406#39727]
Yes. That is what makes it a “root password” … it is assigned to the “root user”.  
yes and does not work on open groups … only administrators can change the passwords there.

Seth says
choy 2015-12-29 09:04:22 [item 19406#39725]
How do we assign a root password to an already existing group/user combo? question
seth 2015-12-29 09:06:25 [item 19406#39726]
i think you can only do it if your author name is also the name of the group. 
choy 2015-12-29 09:09:09 [item 19406#39728]
Yep, that’s what I meant by the group/user combo. For example I am choy@choy – how do I assign myself a root password & the roaming stuff – has it been created yet?
you should see the extra “modify settings” option when you click for signing on if you are in a root identity …

Seth says
choy 2015-12-29 09:04:22 [item 19406#39725]
How do we assign a root password to an already existing group/user combo? question
seth 2015-12-29 09:06:25 [item 19406#39726]
i think you can only do it if your author name is also the name of the group. 
nathan@fbi 2015-12-29 09:07:36 [item 19406#39727]
Yes. That is what makes it a “root password” … it is assigned to the “root user”.  
funnypages 2015-12-29 09:09:11 [item 19406#39729]
yes and does not work on open groups … only administrators can change the passwords there.
choy 2015-12-29 09:14:56 [item 19406#39731]
So funnypages – is my current password for group choy also the root password?laugh
seth@fbi 2015-12-29 09:39:19 [item 19406#39732]
i don’t know where you got that.

if you are signed on to group choy as author choy, you should see the extra settings in your menu.  Do you?

hmmm …. good question …. now that i think of it …. apparently you did find the settings panel, right?

Seth says
choy 2015-12-29 09:04:22 [item 19406#39725]
How do we assign a root password to an already existing group/user combo? question
seth 2015-12-29 09:06:25 [item 19406#39726]
i think you can only do it if your author name is also the name of the group. 
nathan@fbi 2015-12-29 09:07:36 [item 19406#39727]
Yes. That is what makes it a “root password” … it is assigned to the “root user”.  
funnypages 2015-12-29 09:09:11 [item 19406#39729]
yes and does not work on open groups … only administrators can change the passwords there.
choy 2015-12-29 09:14:56 [item 19406#39731]
So funnypages – is my current password for group choy also the root password?laugh
seth@fbi 2015-12-29 09:39:19 [item 19406#39732]
i don’t know where you got that.

if you are signed on to group choy as author choy, you should see the extra settings in your menu.  Do you?
choy 2015-12-29 09:43:23 [item 19406#39733]
Yes AND I am asking if my group password I have been using for years is also the root password  , eh?
the explanation of that should be contained in Feature: Roaming profiles are here … do you find your answer there?   not being evasive here … i am new to this stuff myself.

Mark de LA says
choy 2015-12-29 09:04:22 [item 19406#39725]
How do we assign a root password to an already existing group/user combo? question
seth 2015-12-29 09:06:25 [item 19406#39726]
i think you can only do it if your author name is also the name of the group. 
nathan@fbi 2015-12-29 09:07:36 [item 19406#39727]
Yes. That is what makes it a “root password” … it is assigned to the “root user”.  
funnypages 2015-12-29 09:09:11 [item 19406#39729]
yes and does not work on open groups … only administrators can change the passwords there.
choy 2015-12-29 09:14:56 [item 19406#39731]
So funnypages – is my current password for group choy also the root password?laugh
seth@fbi 2015-12-29 09:39:19 [item 19406#39732]
i don’t know where you got that.

if you are signed on to group choy as author choy, you should see the extra settings in your menu.  Do you?
choy 2015-12-29 09:43:23 [item 19406#39733]
Yes AND I am asking if my group password I have been using for years is also the root password  , eh?
seth@fbi 2015-12-29 10:02:42 [item 19406#39737]
well i just tried to sing on as group:choy and password:funnypages and could not get into your group.  so apparently you have successfully changed the password for your group.
laughing the password never was funnypages & still is what I will not expose here in the open. 

Si says
There is nothing confusing about this at all. It is very very very clear in ALL places.
Don’t make it complicated by making up what you see and assigning your own meanings to things. Read it as it is and it is simple.
 

Si says
Magor@choy 2015-12-29 10:02:01 [item 19406#39736]
OK I got signed on as Magor@choy using the regular password I have been using for group choy for years.
When I use the menu I get two additional abilities to change a password & the confusing display here:
Note it shows me signed on as Magor@choy but the modify group as mark@mark – & whose password would I be changing? sad
nathan@fbi 2015-12-29 10:04:00 [item 19406#39738]
Choy obviously. It doesn’t say “Modify group mark” does it?
Magor@choy 2015-12-29 10:07:14 [item 19406#39741]
Nope! it doesn’t.  I just signed on as Magor@choy . Do I now have the ability to change the group password even though I am no longer choy@choy?  
I am not playing this game with you. The documentation is very clear. The model is very simple and easy to understand. The implementation guides you with colors and prompts to help you further.

Mark de LA says
Magor@choy 2015-12-29 10:02:01 [item 19406#39736]
OK I got signed on as Magor@choy using the regular password I have been using for group choy for years.
When I use the menu I get two additional abilities to change a password & the confusing display here:
Note it shows me signed on as Magor@choy but the modify group as mark@mark – & whose password would I be changing? sad
seth@fbi 2015-12-29 10:08:03 [item 19406#39742]
well yes, confusing frown.   i am not the best person to clarify it at the moment.  this may well be in flux anyway.
Magor@choy 2015-12-29 10:16:57 [item 19406#39745]
Between You & I, Seth, I find the whole lengthy threaded discussion between you & Nate confusing as to what is/is-not in the feature exactly & what behavior I should expect. It is not user-level documentation.  When I try something out & it is a surprise I will note it.  After 35 years of QA I have found & they paid me the big bucks to find the bugs in the software BEFORE it gets to real users & wide distribution because it costs more & there is more pressure to fix something after it is released to a wide audience than beforehand.  looking over a brick wall

Seth says
seth 2015-12-29 10:32:17 [item 19406#39747]
i successfully changed my password on seth@seth by filling in the shaded boxes (only) with the new password.  filling in the top two boxes did not change my password.  

Why are there 2 sets of boxes for a person to change their password?

What would it mean if a person filled in both sets of boxes with different words?   When would they ever need to fill in all boxes with the same word?
like

Seth says
seth 2015-12-29 10:15:36 [item 19406#39744]


Well i stumbeled on this myself.

What do i put down for “new password” as opposed to what i put down for “root password” ?

Do i now have two different passwsords for my group?

When do i use the one, and when do i use the other?
nathan@fbi 2015-12-29 10:32:23 [item 19406#39748]
That is actually very well explained in the document. Not the comments, the actual document.

It’s super simple and I even made a summary in the doc to keep it simple. The regular password is as it has always been and is for the group. The root password is only for the root user and only can be accessed by the root user and it can be the same or different as you wish.
it seems simple to you because you designed it.   it is certainly not the normal way to do this … and so it must be learned.  i was as confused as mark was when i saw that change password screen … and i had read your article in detail before i tried it. 

Si says
seth 2015-12-29 10:45:26 [item 19406#39751]
now i am pretty sure that the two sets of change password boxes apply to something like group fbi ...where the “person” fbi@fbi has one password … and everybody else in the group has another one.   I do understand the reason why that must be according to our current model.

thing is then, does the root user sign on to that group normally like everybody else in that group with the group password, or does he sign on with the root password?

but when there is only one person in the group … like seth@seth …. there is no need to confuse people with any distinction.
If you don’t put in a root password the root identity is never activated and the password blocks for root show “not set”. Then it is just a normal group. The reason for setting a root password is so that you can get a roaming identity. This is all in the documentation.

Si says
seth 2015-12-29 10:58:33 [item 19406#39753]
Well it still is confusing for me the way it is now.  This “roaming identity” does not give me anything that i want to use at the moment.   But if we are getting a true person identity with credentials apart from any group, then this confusion will be moot, and we can live with it the way you wrote it.   Okay?
nathan@fbi 2015-12-29 11:06:41 [item 19406#39754]
It does give you something right now. If you sign is as seth@seth at any time, you pick up your roaming identity and that gives you instant access to your dictionary of hidden comments. You can do this in any browser and get your hidden comments back in full. That’s really nice.  Soon there will be other things, like color profiles for users that have special color needs. Audio options. Etc. These things will always be tied to the roaming profile … how you get (log into) the roaming profile can and probably will change. Right now you do it through your root author account. Later, it could be Facebook or G+ etc. But it will ALWAYS do the same thing … it will give you a roaming profile … your identity that stays with you  
seth 2015-12-29 11:12:27 [item 19406#39755]
yes  okay … so what you call “roaming identity”  is your personal identity.  right?   … in other words, your identity as a person here.   perhaps at some point authenticated via an email, facebook, or google account.  right?
yes exactly  Right now it is silent, because your group pen name has visible priority because that is how all the code is written everywhere. Your true identity is only shown as “roaming as” in your group settings. But it defiantly IS your unified identity and right now you obtain it by logging in fresh to a root author account … that part is easily changed. Changing all places your identity is displayed and recorded in the system to move it from silent to visible however, will be a rather large task someday.

Seth says
fbi 2015-12-29 11:27:22 [item 19406#39757]
So i signed on to fbi@fbi … and then go to settings on that group … and get this screen …



hmmm …. so my identity is still me, seth@seth ...i am “roaming” as such.

i wonder what will happen if i want to change the password for group fbi

… hmmm … let me try … hint it will be the next number.
seth@fbi 2015-12-29 11:30:40 [item 19406#39759]
nope, the password for group fbi did not change, even though the screen accepted my save.   it is still as it was before.
seth@fbi 2015-12-29 11:34:21 [item 19406#39760]
but i think i get it … i have to take on the identity … er, “roaming identity” as fbi@fbi … then and only then can i change the password for that group. right?


so i did  that to change the password for fbi … but, again, the password did not change.

now i don’t know …. is this my confusion … or is this a bug.

i’ll try taking on the identity of the fbi group by assigning a “root password it it” … maybe that is what is needed here … i don’t know

Seth says
fbi 2015-12-29 11:27:22 [item 19406#39757]
So i signed on to fbi@fbi … and then go to settings on that group … and get this screen …



hmmm …. so my identity is still me, seth@seth ...i am “roaming” as such.

i wonder what will happen if i want to change the password for group fbi

… hmmm … let me try … hint it will be the next number.
seth@fbi 2015-12-29 11:30:40 [item 19406#39759]
nope, the password for group fbi did not change, even though the screen accepted my save.   it is still as it was before.
seth@fbi 2015-12-29 11:34:21 [item 19406#39760]
but i think i get it … i have to take on the identity … er, “roaming identity” as fbi@fbi … then and only then can i change the password for that group. right?
nathan@fbi 2015-12-29 11:44:56 [item 19406#39762]
yes, which by your picture, someone has already done, because it now says “change password” instead of “not set”. That too was in the documentation. Also, you must fully sign out to sign back in as another root author and get that identity. If you just sign in as one while roaming as another, you have access to the settings, but your identity *does not change*. Your identity remains stable until you deliberately sign out, as it should.  


ok that did work smiley

password is now changed to the next number.


snuck, so is my identity as a person … but we don’t need to go into that now.

Seth says
seth@fbi 2015-12-29 12:11:25 [item 19406#39767]

changing the password for group fbi back to what it was originally.  that change was only for test.

done

Si says
seth 2015-12-29 11:57:30 [item 19406#39765]


pondering … i wonder now how i can get back my old “roaming identity”  ?

strange though,  it says on upper left of the screen that “in fact” i am seth@seth.

oh well ...
Just sign out and sign back in as seth@seth, that will give you the seth@seth roaming profile, and it will not change till you sign out, even if you sign into fbi@fbi.

Seth says
seth 2015-12-29 11:57:30 [item 19406#39765]


pondering … i wonder now how i can get back my old “roaming identity”  ?

strange though,  it says on upper left of the screen that “in fact” i am seth@seth.

oh well ...
nathan@fbi 2015-12-29 12:21:21 [item 19406#39774]
Just sign out and sign back in as seth@seth, that will give you the seth@seth roaming profile, and it will not change till you sign out, even if you sign into fbi@fbi.

yep that works thumbs up.   you must sign out to loose the old “roaming profile”

Si says
znees@znuz 2016-01-02 14:35:38 [item 19406#40740]
Is there a protocol for a roaming identity to hide stuff in all groups?
Your question need more specificity. I can think of several different things you might mean.

Seth says
znees@znuz 2016-01-02 14:35:38 [item 19406#40740]
Is there a protocol for a roaming identity to hide stuff in all groups?
seth@fbi 2016-01-02 14:38:59 [item 19406#40742]
perhaps that would be censors … i dont know … area is in flux.
znees@znuz 2016-01-02 14:48:58 [item 19406#40743]
My use would be for exiting a discussion on a comment or in an item to bow gracefully out of the lure og rwg or anything else I do not want to distract me.  Apparently I can now hide some stuff but it reappears in the news if someone else makes a comment on it. It definitely is not a censure of anyone else . It is prompted by my desire not to respond to something irrational (to me) , or not in my vibe circle.
well strangely enough nathan’s feature allowing a *local* hiding of comments does almost exactly that.  and i believe he made that work globally for all of your devises for your “root” identity.  it might be able to be extended to thoughts as well as comments on thoughts.  then of course your news would need to filter all of those unwanted thoughts away.  not my personal favorite way to do that, becaus i can easily ignore stuff that is not in my fields of interest … but everybody is different … talk to the Tiger … maybe tip him … you may just get what you desire … i have found that i do surpriseblush … see 19264

Si says
There are many ways to do that we could implement. The Facebook way allows you to opt-out of conversations and whole groups. A way that is similar to something Facebook does and I implemented at floodles is to only show news for things that you have participated in by liking or commenting on. Another way would be to use groups as a focus … i.e. when you enter a group it has settings that determine the scope of the news you see … hence you only see news related to that group for instance … making it a “focus gruop”. Another way would be to scope from the roaming user.

Too many choices to decide on what to implement first or as a thrust.
znees@znuz 2016-01-02 15:00:20 [item 19406#40748]
My choice!yes
Okay. That choice is actually the one I am least interested in. I would rather have focus groups and next opt-in via participation then opt-out by choice and finally scoped to user profile.

Seth says
There are many ways to do that we could implement. The Facebook way allows you to opt-out of conversations and whole groups. A way that is similar to something Facebook does and I implemented at floodles is to only show news for things that you have participated in by liking or commenting on. Another way would be to use groups as a focus … i.e. when you enter a group it has settings that determine the scope of the news you see … hence you only see news related to that group for instance … making it a “focus gruop”. Another way would be to scope from the roaming user.

Too many choices to decide on what to implement first or as a thrust.
znees@znuz 2016-01-02 15:00:20 [item 19406#40748]
My choice!yes
seth@fbi 2016-01-02 15:05:22 [item 19406#40751]
i am assuming that “the roaming user” is nothing more nor less than just the identity associated to a real person and perhaps authenticated to some external identity like email, facebook, fingerprint, etc.
Yes.
like

Mark de LA says
znees@znuz 2016-01-02 14:54:07 [item 19406#40746]
Also I would like to get rid of the chirp on an as needed basis for all things accessible to my roaming id.
The general rule here I am operating under is that I am doing a lot of extra pro-bono work where it affects something I am interested in having for my own use. Larger features and features others are interested in personally can be added in via the Nickel Bank. Thanks!  
znees@znuz 2016-01-02 15:07:52 [item 19406#40753]
Yeah! it kinda irritates my wife sitting 6 feet away.  Can’t imagine why anyone wants it. I will defer to the user community when it shows up in their comments on that later. yes Congruent with 19431 of course.wink
seth@fbi 2016-01-02 15:26:20 [item 19406#40754]
i am sure that will be the predominant attitude of many many users of these thoughts … and is as it should be.   people do not necessarily “pay” to have tools provided to them on the web … rather they just expect that they will show up magically … perhaps paid for by advertising or some largess of an entity with deep pockets.

this media may well be pioneering a hotter interaction and relationship between user and tool maker.  please consider that in a larger context than you wife who probably wants your attention rather than it being on fastblogit all the time … i know mine does laugh … i bribe her with visions of riches beyond her comprehension … sometimes that works … sometimes not laugh
mark@niche 2016-01-02 15:51:04 [item 19406#40759]
kinda opposite here – she comes home from work & dives into facebook or elsewhere & comes out for the “what’s for dinner” discussion. laughing

Mark de LA says
znees@znuz 2016-01-02 14:54:07 [item 19406#40746]
Also I would like to get rid of the chirp on an as needed basis for all things accessible to my roaming id.
The general rule here I am operating under is that I am doing a lot of extra pro-bono work where it affects something I am interested in having for my own use. Larger features and features others are interested in personally can be added in via the Nickel Bank. Thanks!  
znees@znuz 2016-01-02 15:07:52 [item 19406#40753]
Yeah! it kinda irritates my wife sitting 6 feet away.  Can’t imagine why anyone wants it. I will defer to the user community when it shows up in their comments on that later. yes Congruent with 19431 of course.wink
seth@fbi 2016-01-02 15:26:20 [item 19406#40754]
i am sure that will be the predominant attitude of many many users of these thoughts … and is as it should be.   people do not necessarily “pay” to have tools provided to them on the web … rather they just expect that they will show up magically … perhaps paid for by advertising or some largess of an entity with deep pockets.

this media may well be pioneering a hotter interaction and relationship between user and tool maker.  please consider that in a larger context than you wife who probably wants your attention rather than it being on fastblogit all the time … i know mine does laugh … i bribe her with visions of riches beyond her comprehension … somtimes that works … somethime not laugh
Well obviously I have my own tribe and interests and needs which are my priority … which I am sure you would agree is right. I don’t have to be here doing this. You could likely have the feature for $5 (one Nickel Bank nickel) … but clearly if the price of a Latte is not worth it to you and your relationship with your gal, why would it be worth it to me to put it ahead of my tribes needs? Money is more than just a piece of paper which is traded, it is a symbol for what is important in your thoughts and a way of communicating that to others. It often shows where your flow of interest actually lies.  
Yep – it showed up without my interest & can disappear similarly.  It was amusing for a week+ when I thought one of my smoke alarms was indicating low battery or some other device.  Finally I figured it out. The weird thing was that it seemed to be coming from T’s computer too. Then finally I remembered I had signed onto fbi for some reason while my machine was in the shop & the tab must still have been there . Good luck with new pioneering individual & crowd-funding paradigms. yes

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