I go with what happens


... it just so happens, that is what can be shared. 

The meta world of thought and individual subjectivity is about what happens … or what could happen, or what didn’t happen, or what will happen. 

Me, i am “into” getting my meta world to accurately match what actually does happen.  That is just my particular thingey.  I call it truth.

Yet there is the drama, passion, magic and art of the subjective meta world creating what happens.    It does not matter,  which came first, the world or the meta world … the chicken or the egg.    All we know is that together we share what happens .... 
 
This river doth not flow just one way. 

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Tags

  1. happens
  2. metaworld
  3. drama
  4. share
  5. magic
  6. subjective
  7. truth
  8. philosophy
  9. klein bottle
  10. korzybski

Comments


Seth says
Mr. Wallaby 2016-04-20 08:29:53 [item 20827#51339]
A view of what happens is in the past. The dictionary:
http://www.dictionary.com/browse/happens?s=t – almost woo-woo.
Seth 2016-04-20 08:44:53 [item 20827#51341]
what about past, present, and future ? … those are subjective, so what?   what is important is what happens that we share, that is the  “woo-woo” view of this.  perhaps that is the view that you ego will no permit you to accept.  instead you rationalize it away.
Mr. Wallaby 2016-04-20 08:52:21 [item 20827#51343]
We have arrived at that point again where I am NOT confused & you are. I have no need to pursue your pile of words to find the gem in there somewhere. I am complete. A much more interesting article looms on the horizon – https://www.theinformation.com/escaping-the-digital-media-crap-trap rosecool
and by your own words … you should be aware that you have just graffitied my thought adding no content to it.   i wonder:  are you objective enough about what you make happen between us to realize that?

Seth says
Seth 2016-04-20 10:17:06 [item 20827#51349]
tweeted https://twitter.com/SethRussell/status/722852246312984576 laughing … twitter has changed a lot since i was last browsing there.   now almost every tweet has a picture.  it was interesting that lots of associated thoughts were in #metaworld

Si says
Mr. Wallaby 2016-04-20 15:45:24 [item 20827#51353]
happens is old news
happening is now
happened is past
happen is passive

 
Happening is old news too. Realizing that expands the possibilities you can experience. What is happening is simply the momentum of what you have thought. In every moment you have the possibility to think a new thought in response to a happening and in so doing completely change any apparent circumstance. Circumstances are apparent because they are never current. Circumstances are always old news happening along.

Mark de LA says
Mr. Wallaby 2016-04-20 22:26:57 [item 20827#51357]
Apparently for you everything is old news or maybe nothing is happening.
nathan 2016-04-21 14:08:31 [item 20827#51376]
I never said that. For what reason do you assume it?
Happening is old news. (NOT!) Common English usage.

Seth says
nathan 2016-04-20 15:43:31 [item 20827#51352]
No problem. Just never forget that what is happening is “old news”. Never take clues from it or base anything on it. Simply experience it. What is happening is circumstances, and circumstances don’t matter, only state of being matters. (in both senses, creating new matter, and having importance in your continuing experience)
Seth 2016-04-20 16:33:41 [item 20827#51354]
Well I can lean into the slop just according to what works … when i try to ski right where i am, i fall on my ass … sking a bit ahead, goes better.   Looking behind would be looking at another frame entirely … watching a movie … what happened once, happens again … so useful to (watch)   when skiiing  high mountains.

Circumstances are like a hand delt in a card game … i make the best play i can in any case, … so there is a sense in which the actual hand doesn’t matter.  But a blanket belief that circumstances don’t matter seems  the same as thinking the whole card game doesn’t matter … like wishing away the stage on which I play out the darma of my life.  Not my attitude!  I act on the stage in shared circumstances with the rest of you guys,  the drama matters,  not some “state of being” subjective only to myself.
nathan 2016-04-20 17:09:50 [item 20827#51355]
Well, just like watching a Movie, it can be quite fun and quite dramatic to get caught up in the experience. But not forgetting that it’s a movie is useful too. The circumstances in the move seem real and present as the drama plays out … but you can also leave the theatre anytime you want … same with life. You can attach as much importance to circumstances as you want to experience, or not. It’s all your choice in every moment.
Seth 2016-04-21 16:47:18 [item 20827#51381]
well you are using the metaphor beyond where it breaks.  watching a movie is a voyeuristic experience, you do not participate in what happens … you do not write the script, you do not act on that stage.    Walking out on your life is dying.  End story.   Of course, if I discounted what happens in my life to point of being the same importance as what happens in a movie, then sure the things you say would ring true.  But i do not … and it does not.  That is why i say,  “I go with what happens” … watching what happens in my life is not like watching a movie … nor is watching what happens in other peoples lives … nor is watching what happens on a larger stage of our human society.  I am not a voyeur in this drama … i am not just audience … i am actor, screen writer, cinematographer, and director.  
nathan 2016-04-21 16:52:04 [item 20827#51382]
Getting close  
Seth 2016-04-22 03:22:23 [item 20827#51383]
not really no!    more like you are disbelieving in my beliefs for myself, and presuming that i am changing them to yours. 
nathan 2016-04-22 06:23:32 [item 20827#51384]
Nope. Whatever that is, it’s all in your mind. You made it all up. I am doing no such thing at all.  
Seth 2016-04-22 06:29:04 [item 20827#51385]
well then what did you mean by saying "Getting close” smiley ?
nathan 2016-04-22 06:40:13 [item 20827#51387]
You are. You either notice it too, or you do not. That’s your business.
Seth 2016-04-22 07:01:13 [item 20827#51389]
laugh there you go again.   It is not true that i am getting closer to believing your assumptions about the world or adopting your attitude toward it.  Your belief that i am, is something that you have made up in your mind.   So telling me that it is in mine,  is a lie. 
nathan 2016-04-22 07:45:05 [item 20827#51391]
You lie to yourself again dear dude, for I never said anything about what you are getting close to, and I surely would not have meant that. You are close. You will feel it if you let go and release your resistance. Until then, you will not feel anything so there is no point in my making words. This is what is happening in our synchronized verses. What you do with it is entirely your business.  
Seth 2016-04-22 07:55:07 [item 20827#51392]
Come on now!  … sure you did … else what does, “You are. You either notice it too, or you do not” mean?

You are telling your story, and i am telling mine.  Your telling me that my story is converging on yours (and that i don’t even noticed it “dear dude”)  is part of your story, not mine. 
nathan 2016-04-22 08:20:01 [item 20827#51394]
Yes, that is what I am pointing to, a convergence. The details however, from the very start, have been your invention to mention. When you feel your way into it, you will know, and likely give good feedback. Until then, you are spinning your mental wheels. And that’s entirely your business.  
of course i change all the time … and i have changed my Kontext quite a bit of late.  In particular the knowledge that changing Kontext will change experience.  That is so very similar to your multiverses that the only difference i see is in the words that describe it … and some attitudes and points of view.   Perhaps that is the area in which you seem to recognize a convergence – thought i doubt that you have sensed it, because you really do not have access to the happenings that it entails – consequently you must have imagined it. 

But your beliefs in saying,  “What is happening is circumstances, and circumstances don’t matter, only state of being matters. (in both senses, creating new matter, and having importance in your continuing experience)”, is where there is no convergence.   As far as i can tell by your words, you still do not believe in an objective world beyond that which you totally create yourself.  Yet i do.  No convergence, no convergance, no! 

For any kind of convergence there, we we would really need to focus and be completely honest.  We have never been able to do that. 

Si says
nathan 2016-04-20 15:43:31 [item 20827#51352]
No problem. Just never forget that what is happening is “old news”. Never take clues from it or base anything on it. Simply experience it. What is happening is circumstances, and circumstances don’t matter, only state of being matters. (in both senses, creating new matter, and having importance in your continuing experience)
Seth 2016-04-20 16:33:41 [item 20827#51354]
Well I can lean into the slop just according to what works … when i try to ski right where i am, i fall on my ass … sking a bit ahead, goes better.   Looking behind would be looking at another frame entirely … watching a movie … what happened once, happens again … so useful to (watch)   when skiiing  high mountains.

Circumstances are like a hand delt in a card game … i make the best play i can in any case, … so there is a sense in which the actual hand doesn’t matter.  But a blanket belief that circumstances don’t matter seems  the same as thinking the whole card game doesn’t matter … like wishing away the stage on which I play out the darma of my life.  Not my attitude!  I act on the stage in shared circumstances with the rest of you guys,  the drama matters,  not some “state of being” subjective only to myself.
nathan 2016-04-20 17:09:50 [item 20827#51355]
Well, just like watching a Movie, it can be quite fun and quite dramatic to get caught up in the experience. But not forgetting that it’s a movie is useful too. The circumstances in the move seem real and present as the drama plays out … but you can also leave the theatre anytime you want … same with life. You can attach as much importance to circumstances as you want to experience, or not. It’s all your choice in every moment.
Seth 2016-04-21 16:47:18 [item 20827#51381]
well you are using the metaphor beyond where it breaks.  watching a movie is a voyeuristic experience, you do not participate in what happens … you do not write the script, you do not act on that stage.    Walking out on your life is dying.  End story.   Of course, if I discounted what happens in my life to point of being the same importance as what happens in a movie, then sure the things you say would ring true.  But i do not … and it does not.  That is why i say,  “I go with what happens” … watching what happens in my life is not like watching a movie … nor is watching what happens in other peoples lives … nor is watching what happens on a larger stage of our human society.  I am not a voyeur in this drama … i am not just audience … i am actor, screen writer, cinematographer, and director.  
nathan 2016-04-21 16:52:04 [item 20827#51382]
Getting close  
Seth 2016-04-22 03:22:23 [item 20827#51383]
not really no!    more like you are disbelieving in my beliefs for myself, and presuming that i am changing them to yours. 
nathan 2016-04-22 06:23:32 [item 20827#51384]
Nope. Whatever that is, it’s all in your mind. You made it all up. I am doing no such thing at all.  
Seth 2016-04-22 06:29:04 [item 20827#51385]
well then what did you mean by saying "Getting close” smiley ?
nathan 2016-04-22 06:40:13 [item 20827#51387]
You are. You either notice it too, or you do not. That’s your business.
Seth 2016-04-22 07:01:13 [item 20827#51389]
laugh there you go again.   It is not true that i am getting closer to believing your assumptions about the world or adopting your attitude toward it.  Your belief that i am, is something that you have made up in your mind.   So telling me that it is in mine,  is a lie. 
nathan 2016-04-22 07:45:05 [item 20827#51391]
You lie to yourself again dear dude, for I never said anything about what you are getting close to, and I surely would not have meant that. You are close. You will feel it if you let go and release your resistance. Until then, you will not feel anything so there is no point in my making words. This is what is happening in our synchronized verses. What you do with it is entirely your business.  
Seth 2016-04-22 07:55:07 [item 20827#51392]
Come on now!  … sure you did … else what does, “You are. You either notice it too, or you do not” mean?

You are telling your story, and i am telling mine.  Your telling me that my story is converging on yours (and that i don’t even noticed it “dear dude”)  is part of your story, not mine. 
nathan 2016-04-22 08:20:01 [item 20827#51394]
Yes, that is what I am pointing to, a convergence. The details however, from the very start, have been your invention to mention. When you feel your way into it, you will know, and likely give good feedback. Until then, you are spinning your mental wheels. And that’s entirely your business.  
Seth 2016-04-22 08:56:04 [item 20827#51397]
of course i change all the time … and i have changed my Kontext quite a bit of late.  In particular the knowledge that changing Kontext will change experience.  That is so very similar to your multiverses that the only difference i see is in the words that describe it … and some attitudes and points of view.   Perhaps that is the area in which you seem to recognize a convergence – thought i doubt that you have sensed it, because you really do not have access to the happenings that it entails – consequently you must have imagined it. 

But your beliefs in saying,  “What is happening is circumstances, and circumstances don’t matter, only state of being matters. (in both senses, creating new matter, and having importance in your continuing experience)”, is where there is no convergence.   As far as i can tell by your words, you still do not believe in an objective world beyond that which you totally create yourself.  Yet i do.  No convergence, no convergance, no! 

For any kind of convergence there, we we would really need to focus and be completely honest.  We have never been able to do that. 
I believe that absolutely everything I experience, I create. I believe that there is a whopping huge amount of things (infinite really) that I do not create. You seem to pretend that both of those must necessarily be the same thing, like as if the world were flat … but it’s not. Reality is quite curvy, and non linear.  

Seth says
nathan 2016-04-20 15:43:31 [item 20827#51352]
No problem. Just never forget that what is happening is “old news”. Never take clues from it or base anything on it. Simply experience it. What is happening is circumstances, and circumstances don’t matter, only state of being matters. (in both senses, creating new matter, and having importance in your continuing experience)
Seth 2016-04-20 16:33:41 [item 20827#51354]
Well I can lean into the slop just according to what works … when i try to ski right where i am, i fall on my ass … sking a bit ahead, goes better.   Looking behind would be looking at another frame entirely … watching a movie … what happened once, happens again … so useful to (watch)   when skiiing  high mountains.

Circumstances are like a hand delt in a card game … i make the best play i can in any case, … so there is a sense in which the actual hand doesn’t matter.  But a blanket belief that circumstances don’t matter seems  the same as thinking the whole card game doesn’t matter … like wishing away the stage on which I play out the darma of my life.  Not my attitude!  I act on the stage in shared circumstances with the rest of you guys,  the drama matters,  not some “state of being” subjective only to myself.
nathan 2016-04-20 17:09:50 [item 20827#51355]
Well, just like watching a Movie, it can be quite fun and quite dramatic to get caught up in the experience. But not forgetting that it’s a movie is useful too. The circumstances in the move seem real and present as the drama plays out … but you can also leave the theatre anytime you want … same with life. You can attach as much importance to circumstances as you want to experience, or not. It’s all your choice in every moment.
Seth 2016-04-21 16:47:18 [item 20827#51381]
well you are using the metaphor beyond where it breaks.  watching a movie is a voyeuristic experience, you do not participate in what happens … you do not write the script, you do not act on that stage.    Walking out on your life is dying.  End story.   Of course, if I discounted what happens in my life to point of being the same importance as what happens in a movie, then sure the things you say would ring true.  But i do not … and it does not.  That is why i say,  “I go with what happens” … watching what happens in my life is not like watching a movie … nor is watching what happens in other peoples lives … nor is watching what happens on a larger stage of our human society.  I am not a voyeur in this drama … i am not just audience … i am actor, screen writer, cinematographer, and director.  
nathan 2016-04-21 16:52:04 [item 20827#51382]
Getting close  
Seth 2016-04-22 03:22:23 [item 20827#51383]
not really no!    more like you are disbelieving in my beliefs for myself, and presuming that i am changing them to yours. 
nathan 2016-04-22 06:23:32 [item 20827#51384]
Nope. Whatever that is, it’s all in your mind. You made it all up. I am doing no such thing at all.  
Seth 2016-04-22 06:29:04 [item 20827#51385]
well then what did you mean by saying "Getting close” smiley ?
nathan 2016-04-22 06:40:13 [item 20827#51387]
You are. You either notice it too, or you do not. That’s your business.
Seth 2016-04-22 07:01:13 [item 20827#51389]
laugh there you go again.   It is not true that i am getting closer to believing your assumptions about the world or adopting your attitude toward it.  Your belief that i am, is something that you have made up in your mind.   So telling me that it is in mine,  is a lie. 
nathan 2016-04-22 07:45:05 [item 20827#51391]
You lie to yourself again dear dude, for I never said anything about what you are getting close to, and I surely would not have meant that. You are close. You will feel it if you let go and release your resistance. Until then, you will not feel anything so there is no point in my making words. This is what is happening in our synchronized verses. What you do with it is entirely your business.  
Seth 2016-04-22 07:55:07 [item 20827#51392]
Come on now!  … sure you did … else what does, “You are. You either notice it too, or you do not” mean?

You are telling your story, and i am telling mine.  Your telling me that my story is converging on yours (and that i don’t even noticed it “dear dude”)  is part of your story, not mine. 
nathan 2016-04-22 08:20:01 [item 20827#51394]
Yes, that is what I am pointing to, a convergence. The details however, from the very start, have been your invention to mention. When you feel your way into it, you will know, and likely give good feedback. Until then, you are spinning your mental wheels. And that’s entirely your business.  
Seth 2016-04-22 08:56:04 [item 20827#51397]
of course i change all the time … and i have changed my Kontext quite a bit of late.  In particular the knowledge that changing Kontext will change experience.  That is so very similar to your multiverses that the only difference i see is in the words that describe it … and some attitudes and points of view.   Perhaps that is the area in which you seem to recognize a convergence – thought i doubt that you have sensed it, because you really do not have access to the happenings that it entails – consequently you must have imagined it. 

But your beliefs in saying,  “What is happening is circumstances, and circumstances don’t matter, only state of being matters. (in both senses, creating new matter, and having importance in your continuing experience)”, is where there is no convergence.   As far as i can tell by your words, you still do not believe in an objective world beyond that which you totally create yourself.  Yet i do.  No convergence, no convergance, no! 

For any kind of convergence there, we we would really need to focus and be completely honest.  We have never been able to do that. 
nathan 2016-04-22 09:05:03 [item 20827#51399]
I believe that absolutely everything I experience, I create. I believe that there is a whopping huge amount of things (infinite really) that I do not create. You seem to pretend that both of those must necessarily be the same thing, like as if the world were flat … but it’s not. Reality is quite curvy, and non linear.  
Obviously that which i experience is not the same thing as that which i do not experience.  So i do not know what you mean by “those must necessarily be the same thing”.  Maybe that is just a confusion of reference.

Incidentally, i do not believe that absolutely everything i experience, i create.  My senses contradict that belief constantly. 


And yes reality is so very curvy … and mysterious … especially in regard to our experience.   The other day i almost got a gestalt from Mark in regard to subjective experience being on a Mobius strip with the objective reality that we share.  ← notice the “that we share” term … that is the important part of my definition of objective experience.

Si says
nathan 2016-04-20 15:43:31 [item 20827#51352]
No problem. Just never forget that what is happening is “old news”. Never take clues from it or base anything on it. Simply experience it. What is happening is circumstances, and circumstances don’t matter, only state of being matters. (in both senses, creating new matter, and having importance in your continuing experience)
Seth 2016-04-20 16:33:41 [item 20827#51354]
Well I can lean into the slop just according to what works … when i try to ski right where i am, i fall on my ass … sking a bit ahead, goes better.   Looking behind would be looking at another frame entirely … watching a movie … what happened once, happens again … so useful to (watch)   when skiiing  high mountains.

Circumstances are like a hand delt in a card game … i make the best play i can in any case, … so there is a sense in which the actual hand doesn’t matter.  But a blanket belief that circumstances don’t matter seems  the same as thinking the whole card game doesn’t matter … like wishing away the stage on which I play out the darma of my life.  Not my attitude!  I act on the stage in shared circumstances with the rest of you guys,  the drama matters,  not some “state of being” subjective only to myself.
nathan 2016-04-20 17:09:50 [item 20827#51355]
Well, just like watching a Movie, it can be quite fun and quite dramatic to get caught up in the experience. But not forgetting that it’s a movie is useful too. The circumstances in the move seem real and present as the drama plays out … but you can also leave the theatre anytime you want … same with life. You can attach as much importance to circumstances as you want to experience, or not. It’s all your choice in every moment.
Seth 2016-04-21 16:47:18 [item 20827#51381]
well you are using the metaphor beyond where it breaks.  watching a movie is a voyeuristic experience, you do not participate in what happens … you do not write the script, you do not act on that stage.    Walking out on your life is dying.  End story.   Of course, if I discounted what happens in my life to point of being the same importance as what happens in a movie, then sure the things you say would ring true.  But i do not … and it does not.  That is why i say,  “I go with what happens” … watching what happens in my life is not like watching a movie … nor is watching what happens in other peoples lives … nor is watching what happens on a larger stage of our human society.  I am not a voyeur in this drama … i am not just audience … i am actor, screen writer, cinematographer, and director.  
nathan 2016-04-21 16:52:04 [item 20827#51382]
Getting close  
Seth 2016-04-22 03:22:23 [item 20827#51383]
not really no!    more like you are disbelieving in my beliefs for myself, and presuming that i am changing them to yours. 
nathan 2016-04-22 06:23:32 [item 20827#51384]
Nope. Whatever that is, it’s all in your mind. You made it all up. I am doing no such thing at all.  
Seth 2016-04-22 06:29:04 [item 20827#51385]
well then what did you mean by saying "Getting close” smiley ?
nathan 2016-04-22 06:40:13 [item 20827#51387]
You are. You either notice it too, or you do not. That’s your business.
Seth 2016-04-22 07:01:13 [item 20827#51389]
laugh there you go again.   It is not true that i am getting closer to believing your assumptions about the world or adopting your attitude toward it.  Your belief that i am, is something that you have made up in your mind.   So telling me that it is in mine,  is a lie. 
nathan 2016-04-22 07:45:05 [item 20827#51391]
You lie to yourself again dear dude, for I never said anything about what you are getting close to, and I surely would not have meant that. You are close. You will feel it if you let go and release your resistance. Until then, you will not feel anything so there is no point in my making words. This is what is happening in our synchronized verses. What you do with it is entirely your business.  
Seth 2016-04-22 07:55:07 [item 20827#51392]
Come on now!  … sure you did … else what does, “You are. You either notice it too, or you do not” mean?

You are telling your story, and i am telling mine.  Your telling me that my story is converging on yours (and that i don’t even noticed it “dear dude”)  is part of your story, not mine. 
nathan 2016-04-22 08:20:01 [item 20827#51394]
Yes, that is what I am pointing to, a convergence. The details however, from the very start, have been your invention to mention. When you feel your way into it, you will know, and likely give good feedback. Until then, you are spinning your mental wheels. And that’s entirely your business.  
Seth 2016-04-22 08:56:04 [item 20827#51397]
of course i change all the time … and i have changed my Kontext quite a bit of late.  In particular the knowledge that changing Kontext will change experience.  That is so very similar to your multiverses that the only difference i see is in the words that describe it … and some attitudes and points of view.   Perhaps that is the area in which you seem to recognize a convergence – thought i doubt that you have sensed it, because you really do not have access to the happenings that it entails – consequently you must have imagined it. 

But your beliefs in saying,  “What is happening is circumstances, and circumstances don’t matter, only state of being matters. (in both senses, creating new matter, and having importance in your continuing experience)”, is where there is no convergence.   As far as i can tell by your words, you still do not believe in an objective world beyond that which you totally create yourself.  Yet i do.  No convergence, no convergance, no! 

For any kind of convergence there, we we would really need to focus and be completely honest.  We have never been able to do that. 
nathan 2016-04-22 09:05:03 [item 20827#51399]
I believe that absolutely everything I experience, I create. I believe that there is a whopping huge amount of things (infinite really) that I do not create. You seem to pretend that both of those must necessarily be the same thing, like as if the world were flat … but it’s not. Reality is quite curvy, and non linear.  
Seth 2016-04-22 09:23:07 [item 20827#51403]
Obviously that which i experience is not the same thing as that which i do not experience.  So i do not know what you mean by “those must necessarily be the same thing”.  Maybe that is just a confusion of reference.

Incidentally, i do not believe that absolutely everything i experience, i create.  My senses contradict that belief constantly. 

And yes reality is so very curvy … and mysterious … especially in regard to our experience.   The other day i almost got a gestalt from Mark in regard to subjective experience being on a Mobius strip with the objective reality that we share.  ← notice the “that we share” term … that is the important part of my definition of objective experience.
Way cool. Realize that there are many ways to interpret your senses. Interpretation is simply an acquired habit mostly borrowed from those we are around as we grow from a seed in our mother’s womb until we pass the imitation phase (which Steiner says is about 4 to 6 years of age right?). By outside observation you appear to interpret your senses fairly traditionally for your age group, as a base, but exhibit far beyond traditional flexibility in the surface details of your interpretation. i.e. you do (manifest) mostly traditionally in response to your interpretation while show unusual variance in your speaking of and thinking about how to interpret things. This is so.

Mark de LA says
& the younger groups tend to have a touch of ageism & the need to be different in their interpretations. laughing

Si says
Mark de Los Angeles 2016-04-22 09:46:01 [item 20827#51408]
& the younger groups tend to have a touch of ageism & the need to be different in their interpretations. laughing
And thus we have a nice definition for “evolution”   

Wizard says
This comment thread got trashed during the recent server crash

Here is a picutre of all that is left …

Seth says
Mark de Los Angeles 2016-04-22 11:17:57 [item 20827#51428]
it happened & unhappened. laughing
Seth 2016-04-22 11:20:35 [item 20827#51429]
no unhappening … it happened, then other things happened … like for example me trying to restore data in the db by setting a field “0” that is labeled deleted.  and some other changes that did not completely restore access to all of the comments … some of which apparently did not even make it to the server.
Mark de Los Angeles 2016-04-22 11:29:45 [item 20827#51430]
Not here though – disappeared in flurry of total amazeballs. 
wow … surprise … quite an experience then, eh?

Seth says
Seth 2016-05-27 11:10:33 [item 20903#52417]
“so what happens?” ← well whatever actually does.   Which is why i go with what happens … rather than the story of what happens. 

It is interesting to note that thoughs about whether Schrodinger’s cat is alive or not, or whether a particle decayed or not,  are just that … stories … notwistanding that they are also equations which can be used to predict statically what will happen.   But what happens is that the cat is in fact either dead or alive … it is never in a limbo state … that limbo state is just a statical story. 

This morning we got another “scientific story” about cats … i am pretty sure this will contribute to nathan’s story of multiverses …
 

Quantum cats here and there

The story of Schrödinger's cat being hidden away in a box and being both dead and alive is often invoked to illustrate the how peculiar the quantum world can be. On a twist of the dead/alive behavior, Wang et al. now show that the cat can be in two separate locations at the same time. Constructing their cat from coherent microwave photons, they show that the state of the “electromagnetic cat” can be shared by two separated cavities. Going beyond common-sense absurdities of the classical world, the ability to share quantum states in different locations could be a powerful resource for quantum information processing.

 

also told in the Washington Post


yes this comment goes better in this context … so here comes some fun with maps and models ponderinglaughing ...

the point is that the schrodender’s cat thought problem is frequently used to reify a state of limbo of what happens.   i claim that the limbo state does not exist,  only a story of it.  any particular particle decays at a specific time and place, or it does not … but statically a story of it can be told and even a predictive equation of it can be written … that is all just a story told by a map … it is meta.   that is why me, i go with what happens. 

once a limbo state is accepted into the actual existence as real, as the territory and not the map, then it can be and put firmly under subjective control using all of the examples of mind over matter.   then what_happens is suddenly seen as Maya, illusion,  the map.  this is the ultimate triumph of the insides of a person over the outsides.  ← for me a bridge too far … me, i go with what happens.

this, however is the interesting part:   remember the boundary of inside to outside (or what is subjective and what is objective) is dependant on, and relative to, the choice of the observer.   so that we can move the boundary quite outside of our skulls … into our groups … or our cultures ... or our cities ... or our congregations … or our nations ... or all of humanity … or (er) even the cosmos.   so what_happens from the point of view and relative to the cosmos IS subjective.   and so if you think you are the cosmos, and if you are 100% in control of your experience,  then you choose what_happens. 

incidentally mark’s mobius stirp analogy can inform the relativity of ego boundary conjecture.  as we move the relative boundary of the ego outward from personal to cosmic we (← our egos) in fact are going out the ass end of the klein bottle and end up outside in the objective world … that is a way to get to the other side of the strip without going through the surface wink ← course that is going deeper and deeper inside,  hence it is the direction of the spiritual world  ← laugh.   of course i claim you cannot do that unless you are the universe … for you no otherness … it is all inside of you … which cannot be a single human’s choice, but can certainly be her brag. 

 

Seth says
nathan 2016-05-28 14:15:22 [item 20827#52429]
What if what happens and what actually does happen is not necessarily the same thing? What if that is subjective too? How would you ever know either way?
i add “what happens and can be shared” … and that is how i can tell whether what i perceive is entirely subjective or not.  obviously what is perceived and experienced is subjective … what makes it objective is the degree to which it can be shared.  without the sharing that we humans do, yes it is all subjective.  it does not matter that what is shared is experienced quite differently by different people … you pointed that out several times yourself.  but i have things (spirits, doesn't matter what they are called) deep inside me for which there is no way that i know how to share with you … those are completely subjective to me … there are among the clearest most intense experiences that i have … but however clear and intense they are, they cannot be shared … they are my subjective things. 

Mark de LA says
Mark de LA 2016-05-28 12:43:25 [item 20827#52426]
I suspect you really, actually go with what happened! laughing
Mark de LA 2016-05-28 14:06:09 [item 20827#52428]
?
Seth 2016-05-29 09:05:37 [item 20827#52431]
well i can access “what happened” only thought my memory, and as i once famously said in public “i can’t  remember shit” … so no, that is not what i go with laugh.   i worded this quite intentionally in the present … in the now of which i am always present there to.  but this is not about time … i go with what actually happened, what happens, and what will actually happen.   for me, there is no magical sanctuary from what happens in wishing the time dimension away. 
Mark de LA 2016-05-29 09:18:06 [item 20827#52432]
Still munging around with that which is & that which isn’t, was , but is no more, that which is perceptual & that which isn’t, that which is conceptual, imaginary to some but not to others etc,  the stuff generally in the realm of epistemology & the limits & boundaries of knowledge & maybe language, eh?. See also this. Pragmatics may apply but are ever-changing relative to technology. It will be wonderful for yourselves if you find an answer that makes you folks happy – enjoy the juice! thumbs up
Seth 2016-05-29 09:36:15 [item 20827#52433]
do you realize that all of that which you said was your opinion about something deeply subjective in me?   As such, do you really think it was informative to me?   I would be much more interested in how you personally relate to what happens.  Now that would be some interesting information.
Nope! …. just your opinion about what you think is my opinion about an opinion happening in some universe in your mind or my mind somewhere in a universe which just statistically may be all opinion but probably not real (or NOT!) laughing

Seth says
Mark de LA 2016-05-29 09:51:28 [item 20827#52435]
BTW, doubt is a wonderful thing to piss around with, eh? (or NOT) laughing
huh? … how is going with what happens have anything to do with doubt.   Rather quite the opposite … one need never doubt what happens … for me it can not be doubted … it, er, just happens … which is why i go with it laugh.    So what doubt … and who’s doubt are you talking about … honestly i have no idea. 

Seth says
Mark de LA 2016-05-29 09:56:43 [item 20827#52437]
BTW, doubt is a wonderful thing to piss around with, eh? (or NOT) laughingdoubt_one_red_dice_400_clr_2601
Seth 2016-05-29 09:58:16 [item 20827#52438]
well go with what happens and then you never need kick around doubt.
Mark de LA 2016-05-29 10:01:12 [item 20827#52440]
I can doubt that most honestly & demandingly or (maybe not?)coolsurprise 
Seth 2016-05-29 10:08:40 [item 20827#52441]
i do not doubt what happens.
Mark de LA 2016-05-29 10:13:55 [item 20827#52443]
I doubt that you know what happens. Maybe you are just in a dream. Maybe you are making it up from something you read or a movie you are watching or …. whatever? Then too ...you might be the only one certain person in the universe …. wait for it …. wait for it some more … doubt it a little now but wait some more …… 
….
..
of yourself! 
yep, i actually said that as well.   yet i still do not doubt what happens.

Seth says
Mark de LA 2016-05-29 10:09:31 [item 20827#52442]
Did Bozo understand what I said about doubt? Maybe … but I doubt it & probably NOT! Anyone else doubt it? self-doubt-1 … maybe a link will help (though I doubt it!)smug
Seth 2016-05-29 10:19:01 [item 20827#52445]
yep i don’t understand what you are saying about doubt.  

now i can easily doubt my pereceptions my conceptions and my opinions, but what i do not doubt is what happens even thought i may know nothing of it.  “what-happens” to my mind is like your absolute truth to your mind … of it i can honestly say, it is or it is not … it happens or it doesn’t … the territory finally and not the map, not the  subjective perceptions in my mind … no doubt about that in my mind.   my choice of the measuring stick here … others may choose their own perceptions as absolute … not me … i go with what happens.
Mark de LA 2016-05-29 10:24:37 [item 20827#52448]
how kewl!  so you have munged away the meaning of another word … to your own use.  I will instead continue to use PR’s very caveated “direct experience” differently as I grok it.cool
huh?

Seth says
go back to Shcrodenger’s cat.   This cat is either dead or alive, just as the particle either decayed or it did not.  Any doubt is in the mind of the doubter … and has nothing to do with the cat.

Mark de LA says
Mark de LA 2016-05-29 10:18:12 [item 20827#52444]
… additionally, perhaps being certain may just be one of those things which is NOT SHAREABLE, eh? (or not) …
..
.
crying
Seth 2016-05-29 10:25:10 [item 20827#52449]
right … being certain cannot be shared … it is deeply inside the certainer … subjective to her. 
Mark de LA 2016-05-29 10:30:42 [item 20827#52451]
so what?
Zen stories abound …. before enlightenment I chopped cotton, carried water … after enlightenment I chop cotton & carry water … 

before certainty about what happened I …. laughing
Seth 2016-05-29 10:32:47 [item 20827#52453]
i said nothing about being certain about what happened.  
Mark de LA 2016-05-29 10:36:54 [item 20827#52454]
So your certainty is only so good as whatever NOW is – leaving the residue “happened” up for grabs. laughing doubt is a wonderful thing to piss around with!
Seth 2016-05-29 11:09:09 [item 20827#52455]
well i have said nothing about my certainty.   that is just something that you seem to presume that you are qualified to talk about.

let me introduce a new concept into the mix,  it is called “value”.   now value is always subjective.  a bit of thought and some examples should suffice to prove that even to you.  

when i say, “i go with what happens”, i am really just telling you that i value what happens over even my own perceptions of it.
Mark de LA 2016-05-29 11:20:12 [item 20827#52456]
laughing
?

Seth says
Let me be a bit more direct … there really is something here that i have been trying to express without any distracting judgments to wipe away.   I need both subjective and objective consciousness.  We need both.  On both ends of the spectrum there is oblivion to consciousness which some might call “nothingness”.  Only in a narrow mix of the two can practical consciousness be said to exist.

I have talked a lot about “going with what happens”.   Carried to the extreme end of the spectrum that would be called “materialism”,  becoming mired in matter, being a machine – no better than a chemical reaction.   I need not speak to the evils of that, there being plenty of that judgment in our culture, especially here. 

I could also talk about the evils of going to the other extreme … deep within … entirely subjective … and the extreme intuitivle clarity that becomes so loved.  I got into a bit of that in “Bozos Discovery”. 

Lots more can be said about both extremes – but neither is what i need to express.  The evils of both ends of the spectrum are commonly talked about in our society, … in all spheres, business, politics, and social.  I have nothing really to add to those.   What i am into is rather the mix ... the balance between the two … Aa Ha! … that is where humanity really lives.  Of that balance i wish to become aware.   That is the edge that i seek in my life … so that is what i want to talk about.

Seth says
mark: You keep slopping them over on my thoughts – maybe keep it here & I will ignore it.
There is consciousness.  Subjective/objective inside/outside are distinctions you seem to want to play with. I do not need them to be conscious & have consciousness.  Enjoy the glow.
cool

Well that is a funny one laughing.  

Now It is certainly true that subjective/objective and inside/outside is something i am playing with … you needant wonder if it just “seems” that way to you … i tell you quite directly i am plaing with those concepts … that fact is what is happening, we actually have shared that.   ← you may not know why  i find your expression of that  “laughing”  … but i do.

But hey, dude, if you don’t want my thoughts which i think apply also to your thoughts on your blog, then the way that works in a thinking domain is that you keep your thoughts to yourself … select “private” in the upper left hand corner of the post.  Or maybe go blog somwhere else.   Incidentally framing my heart felt expression in your own subjective aug was a nasty thing to do ← thankfully i have special powers here and can undo your offense.

Seth says
Mark de LA 2016-05-31 08:54:57 [item 20827#52493]
It was your attitude that bugged me – trying to tell me what YOU wanted to talk about – for a minute I thought it was a continuation of your argument on my thought – then I checked.  You continue your proselytizing whenever & wherever & constantly ignoring what I am saying – even on my own thoughts – confuses. I shall try to remedy that in the future. Will you? 
coolrose
Seth 2016-05-31 09:28:37 [item 20827#52494]
well it should not come as a surprise to you that i have a train of thought, which i have developed over time,  and that i compose myself (subjectively) and talk about wherever its edges appear.   I make no apologies for that … it is not something that i will change.  This morning i wanted to be quite clear, to myself, and with anyone who was following that train where it was going.  That was an extremely valuable part of this train … it was not an argument with you.  But, hey, you are definitely involved … your thoughts intersect this train of thought all over the place and from many aspects … as did your thoughts on your blog. 

As to “ignoring your thoughts” i certainly try not to … and now that you complain will even try to be even more sensitive.   However, i do not like doing rwg with you or wallowing in rwg you do with and about others.  Whenever it appears to me that one of your thoughts is only that … i will continue to ignore it.   Sorry, not my thingey. 
Mark de LA 2016-05-31 09:38:32 [item 20827#52495]
& yet it IS! laughing
 
Seth 2016-05-31 09:49:17 [item 20827#52496]
well it seems to me that you are saying that, “rwg not being my thingey”, is something you don’t believe … notwistanding  that i have said that clearly to you many times while honestly feeling it.

oh well crying … shrug
Mark de LA 2016-05-31 09:54:10 [item 20827#52497]
Saying it & leaving the last word as an rwg bait …. → laughing
Seth 2016-05-31 10:11:09 [item 20827#52499]
which is the continual game that you play … somtimes i play it too … no surprise there … no new insight either … and no need or joy in doing it again.  

to be honest with you i don’t even like being right at your expense and try like the dickens to avoid it.  haven’t you noticed?

how does it feel to you to be right at my expense?  i really am curious, that is not a rhetorical question. 
incidentally this was really the only important thing to me that i said to you in this train …
 
This morning i wanted to be quite clear, to myself, and with anyone who was following that train where it was going.  That was an extremely valuable part of this train … it was not an argument with you.  But, hey, you are definitely involved … your thoughts intersect this train of thought all over the place and from many aspects … as did your thoughts on your blog. 

have you noticed that is what got sidetracked in our attention? 

Seth says
Anyway back to my point this morning … which incidentally is not talked about in our culture … so it may well be new to anyone who actually thinks about it.

i claim there should be no goal (at lest for me) in being totally objective, totally just caught up in what happens  … nor should there be a  goal in being deep within subjective even intuitive and spiritual … both extremes are oblivion for humanity (at least for me).    Rather real value (at least for me) emerges just right there  on the edge of both.   What happens needs my feelings about it … that is the most important aspect of its happening (at least to me).   The same i do believe goes for all of our human consciousness … whether on an individual scale … or on a family scale … or a city, state, national, group or profeshional guild, or global Earth/Gaia scale. 

It is interesting that on a national, American, scale we will be dealing with this balance in electing (or rejecting) Trump to be our next president.  Now just exactly how that ties in with this balance that i am talking about here is just something that would need to emerge in dialgoue … er, or not … we will just see what happens … what of that can be shared ...
 

Mark de LA says
tuit

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