Bozos Discovery

“the deeper something is inside myself, the clearer it appears to me,  yet the more difficult it is to communicate  to others”

bozo faust

The simply will not understand it.  If you think about it, this discovery is obvious.   I am so very unique and particular,  you might even call me peculiar – no one else has had my strange history and experiences.  I do believe each of you other guys can honestly say the same thing about yourselves.  The deeper and more intricately a  thing is connected inside of that … inside of myself ... the more subjective it is to me … and the  less it is connected to those things that connect us together which we have learned to share. 

Even though this discovery is obvious, almost goes without saying, should not even be controversial, i  have never heard people talk about it.  It is not something that your parents told you before you started grade school.  It is not a meme that is widly circulated on the Web.  Apparently it is something that, on first blush, is trivially true, so quite uninteresting to talk about ...  But is it?

You might wonder where knowing this fact might make an actual difference.  Well next time something new is  extremely clear to you, so obviously true that you expect almost everyone will know it too, notice if when you describe it whether others understand what you are saying and also agree.   Notice under what circumstances others understand and see the same thing, and under what circumstances they do not.  

We can say this more generally simply by saying, “the more subjective, the less objective”.   Sound more obvious said that way?

 Now it might be said that to truly understand a thing … (a spirit) … it would need to be felt, not merely thought about.  It would need to have a qualia to me.   After all my thoughts of a thing, of a spirit, are not the spirit … see “The map is not the territory.”.   Or said differently, to understand something i must experience it. 

So if we introduce this extra requirement into what it means to understand somebody else’s deep “shit”,  we should see more and more how “Bozos Discovery” is so obviously true … for how can I feel  about something of which i have no experience, and i have no experience of that which is  deeply  personal inside another.   Or said differently from the other’s point of view,  how can they understand me without having the very same experiences as have I?

Of course this is where golden rule comes into play.  It legislates that we should understand somebody else’s deep shit just as understand our own … which is easier said than done, for we cannot just according to Bozo’s Discovery … but the law says that we should anyway.  Now this is a ticklish thing, with many aspects, not least being i changed  “Do unto others ...” to “Understand others ...” … which switch is still in the sprit of the Rule in this context.
new There is a corollary to this discovery.   I cannot expect my deep intricately connected subjective self to meaningfully interact in an environment with is foreign to me.   I noticed this one day when i felt like totally walking away from my current environment at the time … just walking out the door with what backpack of tools that i had in hand.   I actually did it … got a couple of blocks away before i realized it would not work.  not because i was afraid i could not survive … that was the easy part, many a time proven to myself  … but rather because my new environment would have no meaningful connections with my inside self.   Understanding how this is a corollary to the understanding of another deep inside self,  might shed light of what i am talking about.  Hint, it has to do with how intrically connected everything is within my subjective being and how particular, even peculiar, those vast complex connections actually are. 

Tags

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  2. bozos discovery
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  4. objective
  5. insides
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Comments


Mark de LA says
Mark de Los Angeles 2016-05-21 07:29:11 [item 20945#52209]
So deep sum even that sometimes it travels all the way to the animal brain & down the spinal column & right out the anus.
Seth 2016-05-21 08:50:49 [item 20945#52212]
well you brings up an interesting point:  “our objective body is projected into our subjective body”.   notice the change in language there.  you would probably think that same thought in different terms, maybe even something like this: “our physical body is projected into our ego, astral, and enteric bodies”.   Fact is that our feelings and mood are affected by our physical body … for example it feels relieving to take a really good shit.  i notice that after i eat, the mood of my thoughts will change. 

your,  funny “laughing” only to you,  insult was a story of the opposite direction saying that, “a subjective experience would travel objectively and come out my physical ass”.  Is that  perhaps a spirit you read off of your Mobius strip model of spiritual’s relationship to physical … er i mean subjective’s relationship to objective?

Incidentally i dont thing it works that way … spritual cannot come out of physical that way … subjective does not get shared that way … rather it needs to go perpendicularly through the membrane that you call “ego”.  but i can see how in your model, featuring the ass hole and its production, it would quite work that way laughinglaughing
-OR- just follow the prepositionslaughing

Mark de LA says
Seth 2016-05-21 09:57:09 [item 20945#52220]
i wish you would tell me in plain English what this wallaby you have about prepositions is all about.   i see them merely as the syntactic mechanism whereby the subject-object relationship gets expressed in sentences.   incidentally a transitive verb does the very same thing.   i guess Ming does not have them … so, if that is so, then the subject-object relationship can not be explicitidly expressed in a sentence and must instead by interperted or imagined by the audience. 

So what is this wallaby you have about prepositions ? ← so far it quite escapes me.
hwun dispels your thing about ming.  Speaking of senses – the three spiritual senses – speech, thought & ego are not geometric nor physical based. Prepositions have a geometric flavor. (earthbound).
An intense contemplation of the “Who am I” question yields nothing geometric for me. Some of the zen states such as satori, nirvana, ekagrata etc have no description for which a preposition would be of any use. There is also one where subject & object duality disappears.  It is not my choice to argue any of these points so I put my item to rest for a while; it being my grok with no compulsion to pass it on.  AC gives some hints of how bizzare existence is in his Little Essays Towards Truth  


 

Seth says
nathan 2016-05-21 15:23:35 [item 20945#52232]
I don’t find this to be true at all. Almost the opposite.
Seth 2016-05-21 15:40:53 [item 20945#52235]
but of course you wouln’t laughing… think about it.  

thing is, isolate the ability to clearly communicate, the ability to express something deep inside to another person … that needs to be factored out of the recognition. 

the deeper something is inside of you … the further it is away from any connections that an be communicated to another.  it is almost an no-brainer if you can see it objetively.  this happens because of the nature of specifics … of becomming particular … unlike something that is so general that it even matches withing a totally different mind.
nathan 2016-05-21 15:47:28 [item 20945#52236]
The deeper something is inside you, the more intrinsic it is. The more it is part of the universal vibration all share. The less it is surface shit that is person specific. Thus, the easier it “should” be to communicate when communication is happening at a true vibrational level.

If this is not the experience, then it is likely that one is very proficient inside a particular box made mostly of surface articulation and is not very connected to one’s own universal core of beingness. Or something to that effect.

I have noticed that those who reconize that they create their entire reality have much less trouble communicating with “any” others than those who think everyone is living in the same reality. Because then one tends to reach deep, for true and universal concepts, instead of trying to communicate as if everything was the same to everyone.
Well mostly that is true over here and hangs together well …. except for your judgments.  For example,  “surface shit that is person specific”.   Whereas i call “deep”, that which is “person specific” and peculiar to a  particular individual … and I would not call it “surfaceie” at all.  

In fact I claim,  that is the same realm of  Steiner’s spiritual world,  or even Budaha’s Nirvana.  Note my term “deep” refers to that which you are judging as “shallow”.  Steiner talks about this as well,  as do most other gurus of the occult.  They will tell you, quite plainly, that you cannot talk about this “shit” in public because it cannot be expressed in the language of the day … it cannot be expressed in the language in which most people’s minds are vibrating.

You bring up several important points which would be fun to discuss, but i want to keep this topic simple and focused.   So that if we are to continue to understand each other we need to get in sync at least with the directions involved sans our peculiar judgments in relationship to them.  I am calling that which is the more specific to an individual and is intricately connected within them, “deep” …. and that which is more general to all of us, the “shallow” end.   The former is the more subjective, and the latter is more objectively in sync with the culture of your choice.   The former is more the spiritual, the latter more the scientific.   And yes i realize that is not the normal way this is talked about.  I have, perhaps, oriented my coordinates in a novel direction even to you. 

To understand my discovery … trivial as it may be when actually understood … you may want to withhold your judgment of those directions.  For example thinking that what is the more specific, the more detailed and particular to one individual is the less important to some “grand universal core of beingness”. 

Incidentally i discovered the effect of which i speak, long before i came up with this story which explains it.    It is experiential, not conceptual.    You are learning of it, perhaps for the first time, conceptually through my language.  But who knows, you may well have discovered the same thing yourself … i actually rather expect that you have  … but you almost certainly have an entirely different story to explain it. 

Also we can see this working in the culture at large.  Try explaining the spirit of some new thing you discovered in your multiverses to a devout Muslim … notice if she really understands what you are saying.  Alternatively try really understanding what she is feeling about her Faith.  Or as a tolerant liberal try to see eye to eye with a libertarian conservative.  Or maybe just try to really understand what i refer to as “otherness” … or maybe what mark refers to as the “rwg”. 

[notify nathan]

Mark de LA says
Mark de Los Angeles 2016-05-22 08:18:40 [item 20945#52256]
rwg is not otherness .
Seth 2016-05-22 08:44:11 [item 20945#52258]
yep, … nor did i say that it was.  try a deeper parse of what i did say.
Mark de Los Angeles 2016-05-22 09:00:16 [item 20945#52260]
Or maybe just try to really understand what i refer to as “otherness” … or maybe what mark refers to as the “rwg”.  
Seth 2016-05-22 09:06:01 [item 20945#52262]
maybe add a bit more of my context to that before you interpret me as saying that they are the same thing.  hint:  i am comparing how a person would understand them, not the things themselves. 
Mark de Los Angeles 2016-05-22 09:19:42 [item 20945#52263]
Maybe just leave out my name next time & substitute your own instead & I would have ignored the whole pile of words altogether. smug
Seth 2016-05-22 09:35:31 [item 20945#52264]
and there is a qualia of that statement deep inside your subjective selfie … which feeling i do not myself experience … but rather interpret just as irrelivant to this thought and quite distractive from it.  conceptually i understand it according to my own ontology and story … but no i cannot feel what it feels like to you to have spoken it to me in this context.  … laughing ← funny to me because of how ironic this exemplifies my thought.
… & how you love to keep on adding words to the pile laughing Enjoy the glow.

Mark de LA says
Seth 2016-05-22 09:43:25 [item 20945#52266]
incidentally, when you call my words “a pile”,  you are hoisting me upon the pitard of “Bozos Discovery” … laughing ← funny for the same reason yet again.
Mark de Los Angeles 2016-05-23 05:59:50 [item 20945#52271]
Why does this POS keep surfacing when I clicked it off my news feed yesterday?surprise
Seth 2016-05-23 06:13:27 [item 20945#52272]
because i republished it.   its enhancement this morning (see new) is after all in my mind.  

That it seems a “piece of shit” to your mind is just because you do not understand it as do i ← an example in fact of this thought itself.  

there is no feature here yet, and i am not so very sure there ever should be, to automatically ignore another … rather you still need to do that manually of your own focus and volition.
Mark de Los Angeles 2016-05-23 06:23:40 [item 20945#52273]
When the words don’t change I call that shouting.
Mark de Los Angeles 2016-05-23 06:30:30 [item 20945#52275]
The clarity of the newcan be simplified  as can the Golden Rule by saying the basic components of human being experience at this stage in evolution are : thought, feeling & will (doing if you don’t have the distinction will).  
GR simplifies to Love AS you want to be Loved (up & down the hierarchy of beings) – down to animals & plants & up to angels etc if you don’t have the distinctions of a hierachy of being.
cool
Seth 2016-05-23 06:38:49 [item 20945#52277]
well i think, in the context of Bozo’s Discovery here, we can consider “love” to be “understanding”.   Or perhaps if understanding is not possible just because of bozo’s discovery, why not adopt it anyway?   is that the clarity you wished to introduce, in this particular context, from deep inside yourself?
Mark de Los Angeles 2016-05-23 07:03:35 [item 20945#52278]
I don’t know – don’t need all those extra words.
Seth 2016-05-23 07:07:31 [item 20945#52280]
whether you understand them or not … eh?
You would be surprised! Never got anything but an A in English from the 3rd grade through graduating from College – My last English paper got an A+ …. Of course if you want to make up words then don’t seem surprised if you are the only one that understands them, er ... aug that!

Seth says
Seth 2016-05-23 07:45:32 [item 20945#52285]
which is fine … but here we talk about comprehension not writing … my writing, your comprehension.   you tell me that you do not comprehend what i write.  i must take you for your words there and believe that you do not.  or perhaps more likely you simply do not care about that which i write … it being too deep inside of my context to even interest you enough to try to comprehend it.   me, i’m wondering why you just don’t ignore it … why even inform me that you don’t give a shit? 
Mark de Los Angeles 2016-05-23 07:54:39 [item 20945#52286]
Do you do that with all your friends &/or companions – blame them for not understanding you ? … as if there is something wrong with themthumbs down  Your abstractions & generalizations don’t leave anything to grasp onto except made-up words & hazy concepts – the real world of experience has more to offer than that. Sorry if you want to paint that as my fault for not giving a shit. crying
well i can see that,  in fact,  your response to anything that i say will automatically be rwg, and that you will assume that mine is as well.   oh well.

Check mate! … no need or use in continuing at all. 

Bye!

Seth says

Goethe wrote a book entitled “The Sorrows of Young Werther”. 

I think this is a good example of deeply subjective thoughts even of a entirely different era. 

Can you really comprehend them?

Do you think your comprehension will agree with anyone else’s in this era?

Can you expereince the Sorrows of Werther?

Seth says
Mark de Los Angeles 2016-05-23 08:32:07 [item 20945#52292]
Maybe, maybe not.  I am a human being with the basic components as any other human being. Art, drama, poetry, …. are experienced anew (especially music) by each soul. They are not scientific experiments that good scientists should be able to reach the same conclusions about.  OTOH, AC called sorrow a trancecool
if things can be objectively shared, then they are not deeply subjective.  If they are common to all, then communicating about them is quite easy … or at least just as easy as one’s abilities to communicate in that medium.  Note the appreciation of art is always deeply subjective.

AC’s little essay towards truth may well bear on this … i need to read it more carefully.

Seth says
Mark de Los Angeles 2016-05-23 08:03:53 [item 20945#52288]
That’s exactly what you complained about! Duhhhhh……...thumbs down
Seth 2016-05-23 08:11:58 [item 20945#52289]
Huh?  i don’t remember making a complaint.   What compaint are you talking about?   Was it that you don’t understand me …. is that what you think i am complaing about?  I am calling that an observation, not a complaint.   I observe that when i talk about stuff that is deeply subjective that people do not understand it and/or do not care about it.  I do not complain that they don’t … i am here just observing that they don’t. 

This rwg that you always do i do complain about … for to me it is not as automatic as you seem to assume that it is on my side … on your side i observe that it is automatic.   Maybe that is the complain you refer to … i am trying to figure this out … but that is just the checkmate that i refered to … so your “thumbs down” judgement is that you do not like it as well … or is it that you just don’t like me to do it … i really do not know  … hence my “huh?”
Mark de Los Angeles 2016-05-23 08:23:44 [item 20945#52290]
Maybe I should coin a new word …. lets call it aug-u-ment ! laughing 
Back to the topic – the adjective deep & the compound preposition inside are being used to explain your difficulty in being understood – isn’t that correct?  RS’s book deals with the barrier with language/communication monism & dualism in Chapter 10 here
Seth 2016-05-23 08:35:53 [item 20945#52293]
Yep pretty much,  the deeper something is inside me, the more subjective to myself, the more connected only to my personal experience, the more difficult it is to communicate to others who do not have that same experience.  That in a nutshell is my observation.   I am not complaining about it … i am just observing that is what happens. 

RS talks about the difficulty in describing spritual matters in language, as do most other mystics.  I’m thinking that spiritual matters can also be described as subjective, deeply connected to myself, and personal. 
Mark de Los Angeles 2016-05-23 08:49:32 [item 20945#52294]
yes & you have defined subjective ↔ as deep inside yourself!  Such is a space/time prepositional description of subjective, eh? The challenge is one of the polarity of observer/observed  – sum  may just describe an identity which is well protected & not usually exposed or some other arrangement. OTOH it may describe someone who wants to expose himself … lots of arrangements obtain!
 
Yep what is subective to me I define as deep inside myself.  

Yet i do not relate that to space/time at all.  Oh i suppose that i could, … i could say that geographically what is deep inside myself is inside the geographic boundaries of my skull … but omg there are so many ways where that is just not the case.  That in itself might be an interesting topic … but it really does not have much at all to do with the characteristics of what is subjective and deep inside of my being. 

Incidentally one characteristic that i can talk about, which has nothing to do with space at all:   everything inside here is so very intricately connected, complex, special and particular, and probably very peculiar to you.   That is part of its nature.   It is hard to talk about it in any meaningful way unless that is understood.  … and that what is inside you is just as very that way … yet almost certainly connected differently. 

Seth says
sum may just describe an identity which is well protected & not usually exposed or some other arrangement. OTOH it may describe someone who wants to expose himself ...

well certainly what is deep inside myself is protected and not exposed to others.  that is the nature of this beast … that is why what Bozoos discovered can happen.  Expression of it in fact is exposing it to others. 

Now i can suppose that others may not want to expose their being  … and grow within themselves quite happily with no need of expression at all.  In fact, from my study of ecology, as well as my personal experience, things isolated inside will grow and flourish becoming more and more particular, special, and even more intricately connected … for example see some of the strange animals of the Galapagos islands. 

that certainly is one way to go … not my way … but a fine story to tell indeed.

Mark de LA says
Seth 2016-05-23 11:29:00 [item 20945#52308]
and yes the observer/observed is part of the predicament.   i don’t understand the connections you have with relationship which bear on my observations here.   perhaps you will explain that yourself. 
Mark de Los Angeles 2016-05-23 11:44:21 [item 20945#52309]
look at the words deep inside myself – that is a 3D space concept – that is the problem unless you do the Nathan solipsistic trick & say everything is your vibration without any locality at all.  BTW, locality doesn’t imply who I am is anywhere at all.  No matter where I go … there I am!
Seth 2016-05-23 11:58:50 [item 20945#52311]
surprise omg, how many times do i need to tell you that i deny that “deep inside myself” has anything to do with 3D space.  Yet you keep ignoring that i said it, and keep talking as if “deep inside me” is something that I have associate with space.     And then strangely, you yourself in the same breath, give an example of how that which is deep inside has nothing to do with sapce at all. 

Incidentally, nathans Trick as you call it, of talking of vibrations is a much closer model to what i think is happening than a 3D bucket or some such model you seem to be accusing me of adopting.
Mark de Los Angeles 2016-05-23 13:14:51 [item 20945#52313]
Apparently you don’t know the meaning of those words.  Get a dictionary or some help.thumbs down
Seth 2016-05-23 15:50:06 [item 20945#52315]
or alternatively you could assume that i quite know the meaning of those words.   wouldn’t  that lead your mind to the conclusion that i am actually saying something that is outside of your normal pattern of thoughts … even while using the same meaning for the words which we have always had between us?
More aug-U-meant – samo-samo something else with your Me(i).

Seth says
strangely enough i really like your coin of “aug-u-meant”,  however me thinks you used it wrong here … for i expressed no aug at all.

rather i am just suggesting that to understand what i am saying you might disassociate it from your conceptions of space because there are none in my mind.

Let me give you an example of the use of the preposition “inside” to express a relationship that obviously has nothing to do with space.

In this Venn diagram, is 18 inside that which is called “Cake” ?
 

Mark de LA says
Mark de Los Angeles 2016-05-23 17:52:15 [item 20945#52322]
The map is not the territory. Logic is a GIGO . The discovery is so what? We acknowledged long ago that language is insufficient for some , not all,  tasks to which it is applied. 
Seth 2016-05-23 19:45:32 [item 20945#52323]
well my take away from the discovery was a realization of what kind of things are very difficult to express or to understand  when others talk about them.  it gives me a criteria for determining what kinds of things are in that class quite independently of how clear they appear to myself.    it suggests, via the principle of charity,  the possibility that i can appreciate deep knowledge coming from somebody else without myself  understanding or being able to experience it.
?

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