Instead of the Right Wrong Game

About: how to criticize with kindness

How to compose a successful critical commentary:

  1. You should attempt to re-express your target’s position so clearly, vividly, and fairly that your target says, “Thanks, I wish I’d thought of putting it that way.
  2. You should list any points of agreement (especially if they are not matters of general or widespread agreement).
  3. You should mention anything you have learned from your target.
  4. Only then are you permitted to say so much as a word of rebuttal or criticism.
Anatol Rapoport

Tags

  1. rwg
  2. fallacies
  3. orthodoxly

Comments


Seth says
Mark de LA 2016-06-18 10:03:51 [item 21041#53009]

P.2514 #33,1 80-12-3-18-10-9-Thursday (35.5 years ago)
" ... Dai see yao gih Eqx Hex #33 kon
P.1862- good advise, but always modified each time another one gets on the bus! Yet eternal laws in practice override the temporal.   It is well to be able to control ones thoughts feelings & volitions so that rather than enjoying criticism of the mistakes & follies of others we grieve & shed tears; then to blame pains us!"

smug yet why even grieve  … each mistake is a new opportunity calling yet for resolution  …


Mark de LA says
Mark de LA 2016-06-18 10:26:16 [item 21041#53014]
Well, if I had wanted to post the whole page I would have done it – too big to fit nicely, eh – I extracted the relevant passage – the link should have been sufficient ?
I suspect the intent of “grieve” is an emotion which neutralizes or counteracts the blame & criticize emotion – analogous to the emotion shame which counteracts some emotions causing evil-doing. 
Seth 2016-06-18 10:37:32 [item 21041#53015]
well i posted it here for those who might not have taken the link … a better splash of awareness for an observer who had not seen the document … more direct … and not at all about you, or your intentions.

i agree … I am sure that GW’s “grieve” was to neutralize the blame thumbs up.  Yet apart from all that ego transaction in its own dimension … the mistake still yet exists in another dimension as a opportunity to resolve to share its obliteration.   it would be a happening ortogonal to the ego dimension of blame, grieve, rwg, etc. 
Mark de LA 2016-06-18 10:49:18 [item 21041#53017]
Outside of you & perhaps Breck who do you think can even pick out the stuff I quoted?  Anyway your orthoganality shifts context orthodoxly . No need to beat up on egos just summon the counter-emotion in yourself or others & stay here with feet on the ground. ← my solution.  
Seth 2016-06-18 11:00:08 [item 21041#53018]
well group philip might be interested in seeing one of GW’s documents. 

hmmm … “orthodoxly” seems to be a new word thumbs up… orthogonal to orthodox?  ← which to my mind is some good shit indeed !  smug

I’m thinking … and there has been some precedence in this train … that there are constructive and destructive aspects of ego … and perchance they need of separate words to point them out.  I do tend to “beat up” on the destructive ego.   But just going to the other extreme … anger(against other) → grief (fro other) does seem to stay in the same loop to me.  Me thinks orthogonal is best … orthodox be dammed.  Me, i do so fucking love 3 dimensioins, rather than a flat 2. 
Mark de LA 2016-06-18 11:06:44 [item 21041#53019]
My bad as I edited I changed a g to an x or something vial the spell checker .  The phrase s/b “Anyway your orthoganality shifts context orthogonally . grin
Seth 2016-06-18 11:10:13 [item 21041#53020]
well anyway a brilliant Freudian slip from my point of view thumbs up.  

but i still do not gorck a complaint … shifting context is how we see from a larger perspective … and going orthogonal is how we get out of redundant loops … where does it hurt?
Mark de LA 2016-06-18 11:17:34 [item 21041#53021]
I think too many words in the pile & no solution detectable after I wrote my piece in reply (corrected or not). In fact, I say that if the jihaddis suddenly got the deep – deep shame of what they were about to do , not only by misinterpreting the Being of ISLAM, but also what they are about to do to fellow muslims, women & children etc they probably would be so consumed that they might be frozen in place & beg forgiveness from Allah (crying).
 
Seth 2016-06-18 11:41:16 [item 21041#53022]
absolutely … if a jihaddis felt a deep shame of killing “innocents”, their dastardly deed would be quite frozen out of happening.  thumbs up  yet what would a deep grief for the others mistake do?

So what is the mistake  in their mind?  The evil mistake to which they are bound by their faith to resolve?  ← called their “jihad”.  How should they grieve in GW’s sense here?  Of course it is all just a flim flam of signs that justifies their deed … taken serious here for the sake of understanding.   How does grief for another’s mistake, when intensified to jihad, end in anything but elimination of other?  I claim It is a vicious circle, of which there is no exit in that dimension … hence go orthogoanl.
Mark de LA 2016-06-18 11:52:43 [item 21041#53023]
What mistake, not being an infidel?  You always seem to equate both sides of a controversy. 
Seth 2016-06-18 12:16:49 [item 21041#53025]
well i am not an expert in Wahhabi thinking … should you care i recommend The Great Theft to delve deeper into that … i think it answers your questions far better than could i … and with quite more authority.  But it should suffice just to say that radical jihadists believe that the West has done them great wrong, which is the “mistake” in this context.  What form would a deep GWain grief for that wrong take?
First of all – not GW.  2nd of all - it is the act itself not the justification which deserves shame. Grief is part of the ego reaction to shame.  Maybe the crusaders as well have shame. There not too many of them around since the 15th century.  Some people have to get confused all the way back to Eve tricking Adam before they stop & notice that we are talking about NOW!  The original sin is that everyone is capable of murder & disgusting, atrocious acts.  What we get for it is freedom.  What guides us is the physical practice of the Golden Rule, not the electric chair or the gallows. Shame is a sensory organ for such guidance. There are less painful ones for lesser trespasses against our neighbors.
 

Seth says
Mark de LA 2016-06-18 12:08:12 [item 21041#53024]
The “justification” doesn’t matter. Whatever runs through the mind of a mental case, whatever cause he uses to motivate the atrocity is not the point. The point always is the violation of the Golden Rule; haggling not allowed. Copying others, subscribing to a religion, nationalism , political persuasion or anything else is irrelevant. The deed itself speaks for itself. 
yep thumbs up … absolutely !

grief for sombody else’s mistake , together with the golden rule, will in fact lead us  to respecting their mistakes as our own?  Do you grieve about your mistakes … sure you do ...as i do of mine?  That seems to me to kind of get us half way there.  Once there i try to recify my mistake … don’t you?   the mistake itself provides the opportunity for its resoution.  If i stop at the grief itself,  intensifying that,  there is no progress … just grief and regret.

Seth says
Mark de LA 2016-06-18 12:47:41 [item 21041#53028]
grief for sombody else’s mistake ?  Such is your horse-shit. Have grief & shame for your own. We have freedom to make such mistakes & a feedback mechanism to take care of the cognitive dissonance of our own lies. The rest I have crisped up already. cool
Seth 2016-06-18 14:53:56 [item 21041#53030]
Well you tell me … what was the object of GW’s grif ? My parse yields the mistake of others.
Mark de LA 2016-06-18 15:07:19 [item 21041#53031]
Recap for those who missed it:  different subjects . His is about blame (yours is rwg blame game).  Mine is about shame. No need to munge them all together. Your blame of the RWG & cure is simplistic. I suggested shame – one notices such in oneself as heat & blood rise in the circulation about the throat area – as a cure for wrong doing of self. Feel the shame. 
Seth 2016-06-18 20:44:34 [item 21041#53032]
Well “mine” is about what GW meant when he said  …
 
 It is well to be able to control ones thoughts feelings & volitions so that rather than enjoying criticism of the mistakes & follies of others we grieve & shed tears; then to blame pains us!"

GW

Now i might be right about that, and you might be wrong … in which case i can grieve for your mistake.  Or you might be right and i might be wrong – in which case now i grieve for my own mistake.  In both cases there is this pain which i regret,  part of that may be called “shame”.  We can stay here forever or not ...
incidentally i see your point smug.   i am generalizing here a bit (perhaps too much) … i am considering that  finding another wrong, and blaming another, as the same kind of thing: me-good/you-bad.  in either case it is a painful and shameful attitude regardless of to what it is applied.   you perhaps are making finer distinctions … and yes GW was almost certainly talking of the latter.  this thought, “Instead of the Right Wrong Game”, was about the former from the git go.

in any case it is now buried in our pain and grief.

 

Seth says
nathan 2016-06-19 08:32:03 [item 21041#53038]
Why blame? Shit happens. (reference Forest Gump). Who you gonna call? (reference Ghost Busters).

Everything is in ultimate balance. All apparent blame is locally relative.

So have fun. Do what excites you. Love. Let that be what comes into your experience.   
 
?

Si says

Si says
Notice that I say and do nothing that causes you discomfort or pain. I simply say things in a matter which you have categorized as “wrong”, and thus through your beliefs you experience pain and discomfort in the hearing of the wrongly chosen words. You judge how I should be, not how I am, and experience the dissonance.

There is a whole different story available if you choose different categorization … and an amazing experience available if you choose not to categorize.  

Mark de LA says
nathan 2016-06-19 08:27:17 [item 21041#53036]
Allister Crowly had it right.

Do as thy wilt.

Then there is no right and no wrong (which there is not of course anyway, there is only your experience and how you interpret it through your beliefs).

RWG is discontinued. No replacement necessary.   

 
Seth 2016-06-19 08:41:09 [item 21041#53039]
well sure there is right & wrong … that it is relative to some spirit, does not make it go away … any more than motion disappears because velocity is relative.  

Your mind is strong and great … but it does not make things happen relative to others … just to yourself.  The suggestions above are great things to do in dialog with others … but, as you observed, they should not be considered replacement for RWG.  They are good ideas in their own right. 
nathan 2016-06-19 08:48:38 [item 21041#53043]
Really? These are great things? Try them. I bet in actual use they only change the details of the game. Only speaking from one’s own place of being can truly be authentic and then there is no game.   After you have tried these things and still find something wanting, try that … speaking strait up, from you excitement, your inner being. Try that and see what happens!  
Seth 2016-06-19 09:46:18 [item 21041#53052]
well “speaking from one’s own place of being truly authentic … from you excitement, your inner being” is absolutely great !!! thumbs up  ← no doubt about it.

Instead of the Right Wrong Game” is dealing with methods of person to person communication and what happens there ...even as a result of following your direction specified above.  These are good rules of the commons to follow … would that we all follow them, the ecology of this space would flourish. 

 
nathan 2016-06-19 09:59:32 [item 21041#53055]
Well the thing is, rules and procedures are unnecessary. We are already built with perfect guidance mechanisms to live in harmony with each other and our environment. We collectively forgot that and created a culture where rules rule, so to speak, so that we could learn and grow from the experiences that could only be had in that culture. We are now, as a collective, returning to our natural state and even right now it will work splendidly to simply follow your excitement and do as thy wilt … the rules and ways hereabout only make our natural means more complicated and water down the real mechanisms we have for brilliant communication.   

If you let go of your shoulds and simply receive what I am saying and let it play naturally within you as a song, you will grok what I am saying and love it.  
Seth 2016-06-19 10:07:31 [item 21041#53058]
well you tell a nice story  … which story does not match my experience.

actually i am talking here more of a habit, than a rule.   the habits above are better for the ecology here than the habit of the RWG.  of course getting from here to there does not happen by me just saying it … any more than you just saying that RWG is no more will make that habit go away. 
If none of you folks make the RWG Wrong (with your own RWG) will the RWG go away for lack of attention?
ponderinglaughing

Si says
nathan 2016-06-19 08:27:17 [item 21041#53036]
Allister Crowly had it right.

Do as thy wilt.

Then there is no right and no wrong (which there is not of course anyway, there is only your experience and how you interpret it through your beliefs).

RWG is discontinued. No replacement necessary.   

 
Seth 2016-06-19 08:41:09 [item 21041#53039]
well sure there is right & wrong … that it is relative to some spirit, does not make it go away … any more than motion disappears because velocity is relative.  

Your mind is strong and great … but it does not make things happen relative to others … just to yourself.  The suggestions above are great things to do in dialog with others … but, as you observed, they should not be considered replacement for RWG.  They are good ideas in their own right. 
nathan 2016-06-19 08:48:38 [item 21041#53043]
Really? These are great things? Try them. I bet in actual use they only change the details of the game. Only speaking from one’s own place of being can truly be authentic and then there is no game.   After you have tried these things and still find something wanting, try that … speaking strait up, from you excitement, your inner being. Try that and see what happens!  
Seth 2016-06-19 09:46:18 [item 21041#53052]
well “speaking from one’s own place of being truly authentic … from you excitement, your inner being” is absolutely great !!! thumbs up  ← no doubt about it.

Instead of the Right Wrong Game” is dealing with methods of person to person communication and what happens there ...even as a result of following your direction specified above.  These are good rules of the commons to follow … would that we all follow them, the ecology of this space would flourish. 

 
nathan 2016-06-19 09:59:32 [item 21041#53055]
Well the thing is, rules and procedures are unnecessary. We are already built with perfect guidance mechanisms to live in harmony with each other and our environment. We collectively forgot that and created a culture where rules rule, so to speak, so that we could learn and grow from the experiences that could only be had in that culture. We are now, as a collective, returning to our natural state and even right now it will work splendidly to simply follow your excitement and do as thy wilt … the rules and ways hereabout only make our natural means more complicated and water down the real mechanisms we have for brilliant communication.   

If you let go of your shoulds and simply receive what I am saying and let it play naturally within you as a song, you will grok what I am saying and love it.  
Seth 2016-06-19 10:07:31 [item 21041#53058]
well you tell a nice story  … which story does not match my experience.

actually i am talking here more of a habit, than a rule.   the habits above are better for the ecology here than the habit of the RWG.  of course getting from here to there does not happen by me just saying it … any more than you just saying that RWG is no more will make that habit go away. 
It already has.  

Si says
“If none of you folks make the RWG Wrong (with your own RWG) will the RWG go away for lack of attention?” – Mark

Absolutely! You can only experience what you pay attention to, no matter what anyone else experiences. Your attention decides.  
 

Seth says
its interesting … using the vibrational model of what is happening here … how nathan and mark are refering to very large cycles (vibrations, thoughts, principles).  i would associate those to very low prime numbers.  in our lives they carry very very large cycles or spirits.  they are the low notes. 

me, however am enamored of the very small vibrations … the specific … the particular … the peculari … examples.  the higher notes and the complex harmonics of many lower ones. 

just a wallaby … a pattern recognized deep inside myself … grock it or not … but it was distinct enough for me to put into words.

Seth says
Mark de LA 2016-06-19 10:46:37 [item 21041#53069]
Many people have never heard of the RWG & don’t have that distinction – does it still exist for them?laughing
yep.   RWG is just a symbol of a bad habit.  there are many others.   Playing a Zero Sum game is another symbol of the same thing. 

Mark de LA says
nathan 2016-06-19 08:44:34 [item 21041#53041]
Never be critical with kindness. That would be unauthentic and a disservice to yourself and the inner beings of others.

Be critical with your heart and speak only from the place of your own excitement. Then your words will be true and on track and honorable, always.  

Seth 2016-06-19 08:59:54 [item 21041#53046]
that is stuff very deep inside of you yourelf, nathan.   from the outside here is looks like the very definition of jihad.  now you might not understand that just because you have not looked at some of the things that are happening in the world.  but, if i understand what you are saying, that is how it looks from in here.  and from out here, it may not apply to like your word “never” implies … there are many spiritis interacting here, and not just the one way deep inside of you. 

well that was critical of you … kind? … well you tell me.
nathan 2016-06-19 09:05:14 [item 21041#53047]
None of that was said from your excitement Seth. Do as thy wilt is not doing what you want or reacting to your pain, it is doing what excites you, what brings your spirit alive. Those involved in jihad are virtually never doing what excites them but are always doing what someone else says they should be doing.
Seth 2016-06-19 09:17:35 [item 21041#53049]
nathan, you do not know what is from my excitement … nor is it something that you should be judging.  that you appear to presume that you know is, inho, grave error. 

when i use the word “jihad” i mean someone imposing their conceptions or will on others just because of a certainty deep within themselves … that they feel so strongly that they are right, they presume that justifys all measures of unkindness against others to rectify what they deem as wrong with the other.  now compare that to the things you said above … you tell me, why it does not apply. 

incidentally i totally agree with, “I won’t apologize for evolving beyone your confort zone”. 

But using that as justification for being unkind, is truly fucked.

 
Seth 2016-06-19 09:31:05 [item 21041#53051]
then too … we probably have totally different spirits connected with the word “kind”. 
nathan 2016-06-19 09:49:56 [item 21041#53053]
I’m not judging you at all. That story is yours only. I see what is and say it. You see what is too, and muck up the words with what you should do and say.

It is fairly easy to notice when someone is saying something from their excitement … it has an aura of authenticness around it. It’s not rocket science and not difficult and it is not reactive or in defence.

Yes, there are many ways to define kindness. Traditionally it is to do that which makes someone feel better now … but that is all based on judgment of what you think will make someone feel better and ignores what someone is vibrationally asking for, what they created the experience they are having for, their reason. When acting from excitement, all of that is taken into account, so in a way it is true kindness to simply do as thy wilt … then you can be sure you are in harmony with the greatest possible good for you and others.

Those who jihad are following a repeating pattern that has been taught to them as children for 1000’s of years. It is far from what their own true excitement would be. They are simply repeating the momentum of a long standing energy wave of long ago desire. Their is no self in what they do. It is unconscious. Following excitement is only conscious, it cannot be done unconsciously. 
Seth 2016-06-19 09:56:00 [item 21041#53054]
you still do not get it.   you are wrong!   i do just as you do.   when i speak i speak from my true deep authentic self just because it is exciting to do so … especially to you.   That you contradict that and presume to recognize that something else is happening is just your error. 

And it is not just this one instance.  You have been doing that for a long time.   You seem not to know what is happening outside of your own ego, yet you follow a stoy in which you do know.

Sorry i did not get to read the rest of your paragraps because this one fallacy is so glaring that it simply cannot be contained in any other thuth.
nathan 2016-06-19 10:02:10 [item 21041#53056]
LOL … RWG has been discontinued. I can’t be wrong.  (and neither can you).

Cool it got your temperature up though … that is a sure sign you are near what you created the experience for.   
Seth 2016-06-19 10:22:35 [item 21041#53063]
hmmm …. true !   it is good talking honestly to you again smug … in that sense this is good heart

It is possible that you can not make a mistake to yourself … and  that appears to you as “I can’t be wrong”.   I know of that habit myself.   Many people have it … it is almost a too common habit of us humans. 

Nevertheless I  actually believe now that you and i are not doing RWG anymore  ← cool  

Mark and I, however, are still dong RWG.   Your spoken “rule” is not working for mark and my interactions … your  strongly held beliefs notwistanding.  
Mark de LA 2016-06-19 10:39:00 [item 21041#53064]
Speak for yourself, Seth – your birdie doesn’t always include Me! laughing
Seth 2016-06-19 10:43:34 [item 21041#53066]
mark exemplifies my theory by contradicting it grin … and shit i will go right along laughing
Mark de LA 2016-06-19 10:45:03 [item 21041#53067]
New Birdie Logo (via Twitter) – circular to the max. laughing
Seth 2016-06-19 10:47:38 [item 21041#53070]
picture does not come though … another one of your .webp drag and drops huh?
Or maybe just Another example bug – happens mostly w/G+ FB doesn’t do that.


via (*)

Mark de LA says
nathan 2016-06-19 08:44:34 [item 21041#53041]
Never be critical with kindness. That would be unauthentic and a disservice to yourself and the inner beings of others.

Be critical with your heart and speak only from the place of your own excitement. Then your words will be true and on track and honorable, always.  

Seth 2016-06-19 08:59:54 [item 21041#53046]
that is stuff very deep inside of you yourelf, nathan.   from the outside here is looks like the very definition of jihad.  now you might not understand that just because you have not looked at some of the things that are happening in the world.  but, if i understand what you are saying, that is how it looks from in here.  and from out here, it may not apply to like your word “never” implies … there are many spiritis interacting here, and not just the one way deep inside of you. 

well that was critical of you … kind? … well you tell me.
nathan 2016-06-19 09:05:14 [item 21041#53047]
None of that was said from your excitement Seth. Do as thy wilt is not doing what you want or reacting to your pain, it is doing what excites you, what brings your spirit alive. Those involved in jihad are virtually never doing what excites them but are always doing what someone else says they should be doing.
Seth 2016-06-19 09:17:35 [item 21041#53049]
nathan, you do not know what is from my excitement … nor is it something that you should be judging.  that you appear to presume that you know is, inho, grave error. 

when i use the word “jihad” i mean someone imposing their conceptions or will on others just because of a certainty deep within themselves … that they feel so strongly that they are right, they presume that justifys all measures of unkindness against others to rectify what they deem as wrong with the other.  now compare that to the things you said above … you tell me, why it does not apply. 

incidentally i totally agree with, “I won’t apologize for evolving beyone your confort zone”. 

But using that as justification for being unkind, is truly fucked.

 
Seth 2016-06-19 09:31:05 [item 21041#53051]
then too … we probably have totally different spirits connected with the word “kind”. 
nathan 2016-06-19 09:49:56 [item 21041#53053]
I’m not judging you at all. That story is yours only. I see what is and say it. You see what is too, and muck up the words with what you should do and say.

It is fairly easy to notice when someone is saying something from their excitement … it has an aura of authenticness around it. It’s not rocket science and not difficult and it is not reactive or in defence.

Yes, there are many ways to define kindness. Traditionally it is to do that which makes someone feel better now … but that is all based on judgment of what you think will make someone feel better and ignores what someone is vibrationally asking for, what they created the experience they are having for, their reason. When acting from excitement, all of that is taken into account, so in a way it is true kindness to simply do as thy wilt … then you can be sure you are in harmony with the greatest possible good for you and others.

Those who jihad are following a repeating pattern that has been taught to them as children for 1000’s of years. It is far from what their own true excitement would be. They are simply repeating the momentum of a long standing energy wave of long ago desire. Their is no self in what they do. It is unconscious. Following excitement is only conscious, it cannot be done unconsciously. 
Seth 2016-06-19 09:56:00 [item 21041#53054]
you still do not get it.   you are wrong!   i do just as you do.   when i speak i speak from my true deep authentic self just because it is exciting to do so … especially to you.   That you contradict that and presume to recognize that something else is happening is just your error. 

And it is not just this one instance.  You have been doing that for a long time.   You seem not to know what is happening outside of your own ego, yet you follow a stoy in which you do know.

Sorry i did not get to read the rest of your paragraps because this one fallacy is so glaring that it simply cannot be contained in any other thuth.
nathan 2016-06-19 10:02:10 [item 21041#53056]
LOL … RWG has been discontinued. I can’t be wrong.  (and neither can you).

Cool it got your temperature up though … that is a sure sign you are near what you created the experience for.   
Seth 2016-06-19 10:22:35 [item 21041#53063]
hmmm …. true !   it is good talking honestly to you again smug … in that sense this is good heart

It is possible that you can not make a mistake to yourself … and  that appears to you as “I can’t be wrong”.   I know of that habit myself.   Many people have it … it is almost a too common habit of us humans. 

Nevertheless I  actually believe now that you and i are not doing RWG anymore  ← cool  

Mark and I, however, are still dong RWG.   Your spoken “rule” is not working for mark and my interactions … your  strongly held beliefs notwistanding.  
Mark de LA 2016-06-19 10:39:00 [item 21041#53064]
Speak for yourself, Seth – your birdie doesn’t always include Me! laughing
nathan 2016-06-19 10:46:00 [item 21041#53068]
Of course. My rule, which is actually a change in my beliefs through deciding, can only affect me. You are welcome to use it, but I can’t use it for you, only me, Mark too.  

Mark can even continue to have an RWG experience entirely by himself and you and I would not expereince it if we did not have a matching vibration of attention.
Seth 2016-06-19 10:52:33 [item 21041#53073]
yes

 i experience rwg with mark … i can not just think it away … because i go with what happens and what we share. 

 
Mark de LA 2016-06-19 10:55:33 [item 21041#53075]
How much can you munge into that sack?
nathan 2016-06-19 10:58:44 [item 21041#53076]
Well, what happens is, yes. And at the same time, what happens is a direct result of your beliefs, habbits, and resulting thoughts, which determine the next frame of happening on your holodeck. So when it happens, experience it, and realize that it is from the past, not the now. Anything can change right now.  
Seth 2016-06-19 11:08:38 [item 21041#53081]
… add to “your beliefs, habits, thoughts, and feelings” the thoughts, feelings, and actions of others and you get much closer to what actually happens.   Snazzm is always just subjective … deep inside of one peculair person … not really out here in the world.
nathan 2016-06-19 11:12:10 [item 21041#53082]
Not really. We do add from others expereinces. That’s how we create otherness. But thinking of others as if they are directly generating your experience is muddying up the waters. It is the quicksand in the playground of consciousness and will take you under to depressing places if you let it.

We are 100% responsible for our own experience, no matter how much of it we include from others. We do the including.
Seth 2016-06-19 11:25:09 [item 21041#53083]
well it would feel strange for me to think “of others as if they are directly generating my experience”.   rather it  feels true that what others say and do affects my experience … it contributes to it.  and that contradicts the idea that I am “100% responsible for my own experience, no matter how much of it I include from others”.  And yes,  “i do the including” is partually true.   Where we disagree is on the 100%.   The part is not the whole … the whole is not just one of its parts.  ← a logical rule which i see no profit in forsaking for the glory of that which is merely inside of me. 
Mark de LA 2016-06-19 11:33:19 [item 21041#53086]
Cast not aside  “THAT WHICH IS, IS!” cool
nathan 2016-06-19 11:41:13 [item 21041#53087]
Surely it is! And, what is is always the past. The now is not what is, it is what is becoming! If it is, it has already happened.  
Mark de LA 2016-06-19 11:46:32 [item 21041#53090]
Image result for laughing meme
?

Mark de LA says
Mark de LA 2016-06-19 10:46:37 [item 21041#53069]
Many people have never heard of the RWG & don’t have that distinction – does it still exist for them?laughing
nathan 2016-06-19 10:49:39 [item 21041#53072]
A map is not a territory and a label is not a person, place, or thing. And really, it is not that important what exists for them, what is important is how YOU feel about it. That is what determines what exists for you, even about them.   
Mark de LA 2016-06-19 10:54:20 [item 21041#53074]
Then too there are many qualia in the domain of the RWG without labels or whatever attention generates to point at something.  There are many sweet ways to language CONTRADICTION into the picture of attention of oneself or others. Is not CONTRADICTION part of the RWG?
pondering
nathan 2016-06-19 11:03:05 [item 21041#53078]
I have no idea. It’s a word with three letters.  
Mark de LA 2016-06-19 11:04:55 [item 21041#53079]
True that! Nathan has no idealaughing
nathan 2016-06-19 11:08:08 [item 21041#53080]
And still, this idea of a bacon and egg sandwich with Spanish olives and ginger flakes and a dab of sarracha is a truly delicious idea that I am consuming at the moment! The ginger really sweetens the pot!  
Mark de LA 2016-06-19 11:30:45 [item 21041#53085]
Changing topic & shifting context notwithstanding . ...
Seth 2016-06-19 11:41:25 [item 21041#53088]
stange … to me nathan’s shift of topic was brilliant and actually informed the train of thought … me, i was going to ask for a picture laughing
Mark de LA 2016-06-19 11:44:33 [item 21041#53089]
Maybe a Twitterverse better serves you both …
 laughing
nathan 2016-06-19 11:56:41 [item 21041#53092]
Could be. I have been wondering why I created Twitter. Perhaps you have the answer.  
Must be rich http://www.businessinsider.com/twitter-turned-down-a-10-billion-offer-from-google--report-2011-4 
thumbs up

Si says
Mark de LA 2016-06-19 10:46:37 [item 21041#53069]
Many people have never heard of the RWG & don’t have that distinction – does it still exist for them?laughing
nathan 2016-06-19 10:49:39 [item 21041#53072]
A map is not a territory and a label is not a person, place, or thing. And really, it is not that important what exists for them, what is important is how YOU feel about it. That is what determines what exists for you, even about them.   
Mark de LA 2016-06-19 10:54:20 [item 21041#53074]
Then too there are many qualia in the domain of the RWG without labels or whatever attention generates to point at something.  There are many sweet ways to language CONTRADICTION into the picture of attention of oneself or others. Is not CONTRADICTION part of the RWG?
pondering
nathan 2016-06-19 11:03:05 [item 21041#53078]
I have no idea. It’s a word with three letters.  
Mark de LA 2016-06-19 11:04:55 [item 21041#53079]
True that! Nathan has no idealaughing
nathan 2016-06-19 11:08:08 [item 21041#53080]
And still, this idea of a bacon and egg sandwich with Spanish olives and ginger flakes and a dab of sarracha is a truly delicious idea that I am consuming at the moment! The ginger really sweetens the pot!  
Mark de LA 2016-06-19 11:30:45 [item 21041#53085]
Changing topic & shifting context notwithstanding . ...
Seth 2016-06-19 11:41:25 [item 21041#53088]
stange … to me nathan’s shift of topic was brilliant and actually informed the train of thought … me, i was going to ask for a picture laughing
Mark de LA 2016-06-19 11:44:33 [item 21041#53089]
Maybe a Twitterverse better serves you both …
 laughing
nathan 2016-06-19 11:56:41 [item 21041#53092]
Could be. I have been wondering why I created Twitter. Perhaps you have the answer.  
nathan 2016-06-19 12:17:59 [item 21041#53095]
Also, this is my experience. It may not be yours, and that is perfectly fine. My days of trying to match up a few broad strokes between our experiences so that we can agree they are similar are long gone. Nothing bad happens if one doesn’t do that. In fact, many many good things start happening when one is true to their own experience as if it is unique instead of the result of the experiences of others.

What is IS, but what is possible right now is all that has ever been thought by anyone in any verse. The only thing that ties what is to what is happening now is the momentum of one’s own thoughts … like attracts like. It is possible in any moment to choose any potential happening, quite independent of the circumstances of “what is”. It is only necessary to tune one’s frequency of being to do so.

Circumstances don’t “matter”, state of being “matters”.

What you are seeing on your TV is the result of what you are tuning in. What has been there is and won’t change, what is there now you choose … but you may have to reach for the remote to do it. i.e. change your thoughts, deliberatly.
Mark de LA 2016-06-19 12:21:27 [item 21041#53098]
& maybe just don’t believe any of the shit from ANY source that shows up! smug
nathan 2016-06-19 12:23:31 [item 21041#53100]
Yes. Good idea. Believe yourself.   
Mark de LA 2016-06-19 12:24:33 [item 21041#53101]
Not a belief kinda thingy, dude! laughing
nathan 2016-06-19 12:27:43 [item 21041#53102]
Really? How so.
Mark de LA 2016-06-19 12:36:19 [item 21041#53103]
How should it be? Direct experience of self IS! Belief is just a qualia about some kind of certainty usually reserved, along with faith, for religions & selfie-survival.  Am discarding more & more each day.smug
Well yes, it is true that your reality experience is managed and founded upon your beliefs. Beliefs are the filters that make your experience a consistent experience. Without them, it would not be possible to carve out an experience at all … and sharing them can be fun.

But yes, we all have way more beliefs than we need for a beautiful experience, and many of them are not our own anyway, but ones we have appropriated from others. It is useful to clean house. It adds quality to the overall experience.  

Si says
nathan 2016-06-19 11:58:57 [item 21041#53093]
Well there you go! Mark can do RWG all by himself as seen in [item 21041#53041]  

Brilliant example manifesting!
Mark de LA 2016-06-19 12:11:51 [item 21041#53094]
& the internal qualia requiring that kind of a response has no RWG in it (or does it?) sweet words notwithstanding. laughing
nathan 2016-06-19 12:21:16 [item 21041#53097]
I am enjoying the experience of writing about Mark RWGing with himself and then it happening, all whithin an hour or so. I love how fast manifestation is happening in my experience these days!

Whatever you are getting out of it is your story. Are you still telling an RWG story?
Mark de LA 2016-06-19 12:23:26 [item 21041#53099]
Maybe just NOT believing any of the shit from ANY source that shows up here! smug
nathan 2016-06-19 15:28:36 [item 21041#53105]
I am happy you are being more particular about your beliefs. That is a healthy improvement in your conscious experience.

However, when you call someone else’s beliefs “shit”, you better be prepared to back that up with your own story and show how those beliefs really are “shit” in your verse the way you run it. If not, then your just an asshole spewing diarrhea in my verse.  
Mark de LA 2016-06-19 15:40:31 [item 21041#53106]
Nope! No RWG here just people calling other people assholes, asshole!thumbs down
I explained exactly how you fit yourself into my verse as an asshole. All I have ever asked from you and all your drive by put downs is the same. Explain. When you have a problem with something, explain the cause and effect of it. Show how it does not work in your verse. Drive by shitting on my lawn is simply unacceptable.

Si says
nathan 2016-06-19 08:44:34 [item 21041#53041]
Never be critical with kindness. That would be unauthentic and a disservice to yourself and the inner beings of others.

Be critical with your heart and speak only from the place of your own excitement. Then your words will be true and on track and honorable, always.  

Seth 2016-06-19 08:59:54 [item 21041#53046]
that is stuff very deep inside of you yourelf, nathan.   from the outside here is looks like the very definition of jihad.  now you might not understand that just because you have not looked at some of the things that are happening in the world.  but, if i understand what you are saying, that is how it looks from in here.  and from out here, it may not apply to like your word “never” implies … there are many spiritis interacting here, and not just the one way deep inside of you. 

well that was critical of you … kind? … well you tell me.
nathan 2016-06-19 09:05:14 [item 21041#53047]
None of that was said from your excitement Seth. Do as thy wilt is not doing what you want or reacting to your pain, it is doing what excites you, what brings your spirit alive. Those involved in jihad are virtually never doing what excites them but are always doing what someone else says they should be doing.
Seth 2016-06-19 09:17:35 [item 21041#53049]
nathan, you do not know what is from my excitement … nor is it something that you should be judging.  that you appear to presume that you know is, inho, grave error. 

when i use the word “jihad” i mean someone imposing their conceptions or will on others just because of a certainty deep within themselves … that they feel so strongly that they are right, they presume that justifys all measures of unkindness against others to rectify what they deem as wrong with the other.  now compare that to the things you said above … you tell me, why it does not apply. 

incidentally i totally agree with, “I won’t apologize for evolving beyone your confort zone”. 

But using that as justification for being unkind, is truly fucked.

 
Seth 2016-06-19 09:31:05 [item 21041#53051]
then too … we probably have totally different spirits connected with the word “kind”. 
nathan 2016-06-19 09:49:56 [item 21041#53053]
I’m not judging you at all. That story is yours only. I see what is and say it. You see what is too, and muck up the words with what you should do and say.

It is fairly easy to notice when someone is saying something from their excitement … it has an aura of authenticness around it. It’s not rocket science and not difficult and it is not reactive or in defence.

Yes, there are many ways to define kindness. Traditionally it is to do that which makes someone feel better now … but that is all based on judgment of what you think will make someone feel better and ignores what someone is vibrationally asking for, what they created the experience they are having for, their reason. When acting from excitement, all of that is taken into account, so in a way it is true kindness to simply do as thy wilt … then you can be sure you are in harmony with the greatest possible good for you and others.

Those who jihad are following a repeating pattern that has been taught to them as children for 1000’s of years. It is far from what their own true excitement would be. They are simply repeating the momentum of a long standing energy wave of long ago desire. Their is no self in what they do. It is unconscious. Following excitement is only conscious, it cannot be done unconsciously. 
Seth 2016-06-19 09:56:00 [item 21041#53054]
you still do not get it.   you are wrong!   i do just as you do.   when i speak i speak from my true deep authentic self just because it is exciting to do so … especially to you.   That you contradict that and presume to recognize that something else is happening is just your error. 

And it is not just this one instance.  You have been doing that for a long time.   You seem not to know what is happening outside of your own ego, yet you follow a stoy in which you do know.

Sorry i did not get to read the rest of your paragraps because this one fallacy is so glaring that it simply cannot be contained in any other thuth.
nathan 2016-06-19 10:02:10 [item 21041#53056]
LOL … RWG has been discontinued. I can’t be wrong.  (and neither can you).

Cool it got your temperature up though … that is a sure sign you are near what you created the experience for.   
Seth 2016-06-19 10:22:35 [item 21041#53063]
hmmm …. true !   it is good talking honestly to you again smug … in that sense this is good heart

It is possible that you can not make a mistake to yourself … and  that appears to you as “I can’t be wrong”.   I know of that habit myself.   Many people have it … it is almost a too common habit of us humans. 

Nevertheless I  actually believe now that you and i are not doing RWG anymore  ← cool  

Mark and I, however, are still dong RWG.   Your spoken “rule” is not working for mark and my interactions … your  strongly held beliefs notwistanding.  
Mark de LA 2016-06-19 10:39:00 [item 21041#53064]
Speak for yourself, Seth – your birdie doesn’t always include Me! laughing
nathan 2016-06-19 10:46:00 [item 21041#53068]
Of course. My rule, which is actually a change in my beliefs through deciding, can only affect me. You are welcome to use it, but I can’t use it for you, only me, Mark too.  

Mark can even continue to have an RWG experience entirely by himself and you and I would not expereince it if we did not have a matching vibration of attention.
Seth 2016-06-19 10:52:33 [item 21041#53073]
yes

 i experience rwg with mark … i can not just think it away … because i go with what happens and what we share. 

 
Mark de LA 2016-06-19 10:55:33 [item 21041#53075]
How much can you munge into that sack?
nathan 2016-06-19 10:58:44 [item 21041#53076]
Well, what happens is, yes. And at the same time, what happens is a direct result of your beliefs, habbits, and resulting thoughts, which determine the next frame of happening on your holodeck. So when it happens, experience it, and realize that it is from the past, not the now. Anything can change right now.  
Seth 2016-06-19 11:08:38 [item 21041#53081]
… add to “your beliefs, habits, thoughts, and feelings” the thoughts, feelings, and actions of others and you get much closer to what actually happens.   Snazzm is always just subjective … deep inside of one peculair person … not really out here in the world.
nathan 2016-06-19 11:12:10 [item 21041#53082]
Not really. We do add from others expereinces. That’s how we create otherness. But thinking of others as if they are directly generating your experience is muddying up the waters. It is the quicksand in the playground of consciousness and will take you under to depressing places if you let it.

We are 100% responsible for our own experience, no matter how much of it we include from others. We do the including.
Mark de LA 2016-06-19 11:28:57 [item 21041#53084]
Nathan has a very kewl mixture (munge) of StarTrek ontology & Heinlein Scifi & LOA theology. Could possibly add the Illuminati stuff of Robert Anton Wilson  (friends with Leary, Alpert, Huxley et.al) – books also found in the GW archive.  He’s also familiar with Crowley & speaks of the Door in the Wall & The Chapel Perilous as analogies for “crossing the threshhold” 
Can anyone top that?
ponderinglaughing
I can top that!  

And seriously, these are amazing and great people you speak of. I am honored that their influence is recognized in the building of my reality. I have had some of the best imagineers in all the verses to draw upon. Is it any wonder my verse is so versatile, amazing, and complete?

Mark de LA says
Mark de LA 2016-06-18 23:18:54 [item 21041#53033]
Enjoy whatever you think it is. Adios!
Seth 2016-06-19 08:06:38 [item 21041#53035]
http://www.penwellgabelcemetery.com/Images/Cremation-UrnBurial2.png
← one of several burial options for our grieving and our shame
Mark de LA 2016-06-19 08:44:37 [item 21041#53042]
unreadable
Seth 2016-06-21 07:48:44 [item 21041#53159]
grave stones, urns, and plaques represent the traditional way grieving in shared in our culture.   here i refer to that as the same thing as GW did in his term, “we grieve & shed tears” in the context of what i recognize was your traditional RWG response.  Now of course, inside of you, you will almost certainly not recognize “Enjoy whatever you think it is. Adios!” as RWG … but i am telling you that from inside here it felt like it certainly was.  For this i shed tears and bury it.   Sorry if my previous response was too obscure to have sufficiently represented that to you. 
Mark de LA 2016-06-21 07:56:54 [item 21041#53161]
Still can’t read what is written on the stones & NOW I don’t care either. Enjoy your self-presumed brilliance!
thumbs up
p.s. GW was not talking about grave stones; more like grief. Your munge of society being what it is – missed it again in your RWG.
Flash from today’s Drudge:
 

When monkeys lose friend they grieve for hours… laughing

Mark de LA says
Mark de LA 2016-06-18 23:18:54 [item 21041#53033]
Enjoy whatever you think it is. Adios!
Seth 2016-06-19 08:06:38 [item 21041#53035]
http://www.penwellgabelcemetery.com/Images/Cremation-UrnBurial2.png
← one of several burial options for our grieving and our shame
Mark de LA 2016-06-19 08:44:37 [item 21041#53042]
unreadable
Seth 2016-06-21 07:48:44 [item 21041#53159]
grave stones, urns, and plaques represent the traditional way grieving in shared in our culture.   here i refer to that as the same thing as GW did in his term, “we grieve & shed tears” in the context of what i recognize was your traditional RWG response.  Now of course, inside of you, you will almost certainly not recognize “Enjoy whatever you think it is. Adios!” as RWG … but i am telling you that from inside here it felt like it certainly was.  For this i shed tears and bury it.   Sorry if my previous response was too obscure to have sufficiently represented that to you. 
Mark de LA 2016-06-21 07:56:54 [item 21041#53161]
Still can’t read what is written on the stones & NOW I don’t care either. Enjoy your self-presumed brilliance!
thumbs up
p.s. GW was not talking about grave stones; more like grief. Your munge of society being what it is – missed it again in your RWG.
Seth 2016-06-21 08:17:14 [item 21041#53163]
what is written on the grave stone is an irrelevant detail in the representation.  i should have selected a different arbitrary picture of traditional representations of grief in our society and then you would not have been distracted by that irrelevant detail.  for this i grieve … can you grieve with me?

grave stones are a representation of grief.  that same kind of grief to which GW referred.

Society happens and we share those happenings.  

What did i miss?
Well for example all the other synonyms of grief I pointed to above & the fact that GW doesn’t talk in representations but verbs these days. laughing

Seth says
it just dawned on me that we can factor 2 out of sums, but cannot factor out 1.  ← which idea occured because of my thought that RWG is a prepondance of contradiction relative to a confusion of signs which is a giant wave or vibration which obscures the more interesting finer frequencies.   Relative to them, might we just try to factor the 2 our of the our added vibraions?  Factor out both the 1 & its contradiction 2  … but we cannot factor out 1 ← laugh   ← a funny cartoon in “Bozomic Decomposition”, eh?

Seth says
this is the first time i have heard RWG analized in relation to relative truth … and shown how unnecessary it is ...
 
nathan 2016-06-24 16:52:47 [item 20937#53423]
Yes. RWG is a personal process. As you have seen, you can do it by yourself. It is each persons individual responsibility to tune in RWG, or tune in a different experience. For you, there is only your truth. No matter what is true for others, you will only accept it if it is your truth. This is true for each of us. It isn’t about what is true, it is about getting others to accept your truth, that is what sustains RWG for one or more individuals.

So yes, simply don’t do that. Realize that your truth is yours and let others have theirs. It works perfectly fine.

It is only an old urban legend that we must have the same truths and share them in order to exist together. We can do that, for the fun and expansion and good feelings of it, but it is never necessary. Your experience will always be yours and different from others experience's in many ways, lager or smaller. Those differences have never mattered to you before. So why should some particular difference matter to you? If it does, it is your choosing for it to matter and that vested interest of your choice becomes the sustaining RWG energy form.
brilliant thumbs up  … this works for me smug.

Si says
So the quote at the top probably works to avoid RWG and communicate well, but it is complicated and requires one to follow artificial rules and develop unusual skills that they apply to conversations and really ends up doing the same thing as:
  1. Be authentic. Say what is true for you always, not what you think someone else wants to hear.
  2. Refrane from trying to get others to adopt your truth. Their truth is as valid as yours and both don’t have to agree and your world will not stop revolving if they don’t agree.
… which requires no special rules or skills other than being yourself as you authentically are, and overcoming the “learned” programming that makes you want to get everyone to agree on the same truth, because that is not natural and is something we pick up from society, the way people have been doing a mucky job of it during the last few thousand years or so of human contrast.

It’s like, we have learned bad habits of communication, and you can use the steps in the quote at the top to get around those bad habits, kind of duct tape it all together Frankenstein like with foam on the sharp corners … or, just loose the bad habits and be an authentic human, which is simple and naked and works fine too.  

Si says
Mark de LA 2016-06-25 08:10:31 [item 21041#53434]
Interesting analisis by some … who analised it? 
I would love to be a fly on the wall if any of this made it into a court of law where a judge has the bailiff swear  in an expert witness 
“do you (… name...) swear (or affirm)  to tell whole truth, nothing but the truth so help you God?”
“WOW! your truth, my truth …. so many problems there 
“God ?
my ontology, your ontology ?   
Most people who read 1722 & encounter the right-wrong distinction don’t get to the “I’m right” part as being part of the same distinction or all the other permutations of right & wrong. Then too N has it all happening within one person (or persons) – which I won’t go into here.   Correcting, reframing, &/or rewording  someone else’s posts here to one’s own ontology is still in the “game”. 
Then too, IMHO (which is neither), polarity exists or at least there must be a multitude of truths →  liberal truth, conservative truth, black truth, white truth, even this scientist’s truth that scientist’s truth, female truth, male truth, …. infinite classifications in all directions as many as there distinctions & contexts themselves … show up when we speak, write & think, feel & act. Beliefs yield even another whole dimension.
I choose instead of munging truth away or polarity into singularity 21044 that what is needed here is just a reinvigorated call for civility in communication.  The news these days seems to be going entirely in the opposite direction. So-called political correctness is an underhanded method of censorship at worse or at best an attempt to establish one’s own “truth” for everyone else.
Answer the call with your example!
nathan 2016-06-25 08:33:20 [item 21041#53435]
I agree it would be messed up in court. But if anyone hasn’t noticed, court and law is already horribly messed up and getting worse as the legal pile of precedent accumulates bigger. In my opinion, our court and legal system was an interesting experiment founded on some interesting ideas about life and reality that are now getting clarified and there will be a time when things are done quite differently. Instead of trying to figure out how these new ideas about reality would fit into existing old structures … think about how they would make new structures so much simpler.  
Mark de LA 2016-06-25 08:42:59 [item 21041#53436]
pondering court of law only thing that caught attention?
I noticed that you started another post for “civility” and thought I would post the rest there. Done with the law thing so letting it die out here.  

Mark de LA says
Seth 2016-06-25 09:03:44 [item 21041#53439]
re (2) “Refrane from trying to get others to adopt your truth.

Thing is collective action, feeling, and thought is frequently to be valued.  We see this in cases where it is impossible for single individuals acting alone to make some desired result obtain … and … the desired result is deemed by all more important than any single individual objectives.   That is a reason we hang together in groups.  When everyone in the group is feeling the same truth,  then the group works as a whole. 

So that is the other end of this spectrum … and it is not a end of the spectrum that goes away  by following that one simple rule.

Of course there are many solutions that do not involve “trying to get others to adopt your truth” … the simplest of which is just to leave the group.  Another is realizing that an individual’s feeling of truth, and what they do together with a group, do not necessarily need to tell the same story, especially since “All stories obtain” … however the turbulence of “Cognitive Dissonace Theory” can result, if “Tolerance” cannot be summoned. 

this is not a real simple dynamic … it is as nuanced, mysterious,  and amazing as humanity ourselves.
I suspect (via RS & GW) that there will be an option, somewhere down the road, where the choice will arise to leave the human race. Till then, the GR & Compassion seem like pretty good options; haggling and quibbling notwithstanding. 

Mark de LA says
Mark de LA 2016-06-25 08:52:09 [item 21041#53438]

I suspect if one were truly conscientious in speaking truth in all its aspects & details one might never say a word.
pondering                                                     -Mark de LA

nathan 2016-06-25 09:21:47 [item 21041#53445]
Probably true. Hence the multiverse came into being, so we could add some drama and have some crazy awesome experiences! 
I would probably put that one on the chopping block as well! laughing

Mark de LA says
Seth 2016-06-25 09:03:44 [item 21041#53439]
re (2) “Refrane from trying to get others to adopt your truth.

Thing is collective action, feeling, and thought is frequently to be valued.  We see this in cases where it is impossible for single individuals acting alone to make some desired result obtain … and … the desired result is deemed by all more important than any single individual objectives.   That is a reason we hang together in groups.  When everyone in the group is feeling the same truth,  then the group works as a whole. 

So that is the other end of this spectrum … and it is not a end of the spectrum that goes away  by following that one simple rule.

Of course there are many solutions that do not involve “trying to get others to adopt your truth” … the simplest of which is just to leave the group.  Another is realizing that an individual’s feeling of truth, and what they do together with a group, do not necessarily need to tell the same story, especially since “All stories obtain” … however the turbulence of “Cognitive Dissonace Theory” can result, if “Tolerance” cannot be summoned. 

this is not a real simple dynamic … it is as nuanced, mysterious,  and amazing as humanity ourselves.
Mark de LA 2016-06-25 09:11:51 [item 21041#53440]
I suspect (via RS & GW) that there will be an option, somewhere down the road, where the choice will arise to leave the human race. Till then, the GR & Compassion seem like pretty good options; haggling notwithstanding. 
nathan 2016-06-25 09:17:46 [item 21041#53442]
I’m not against GR and compassion. I’m for letting them be more authentic, less contrived and based on whimsical or outdated human rules. Let them come from the heart pure and simple as they come through from higher realms.  

As to the meme, I don’t think it works like that. Apparent wrong timing is simply mismatched vibrations and if you take that as an indicator and tune your vibration better your tracks will align. Experiences are not bound to circumstances. Experiences are bound to state of being. Align your state of being to what you want and what you want will be there no matter what circumstances have transpired before.  
Mark de LA 2016-06-25 09:19:59 [item 21041#53444]
-XOR- follow your heart & shed your beliefs . no need for rules including ones about vibrations. smug
nathan 2016-06-25 09:24:36 [item 21041#53447]
Yes. I agree with that. There is no “need”. So … choose the beliefs and rules that support the experience you want to have. If you don’t want physical experiences, choose something other than physical incarnation. For rules and beliefs are what create physical experience.  
Mark de LA 2016-06-25 10:10:35 [item 21041#53450]
… if that is your belief …. perhaps! yes
nathan 2016-06-25 10:17:38 [item 21041#53451]
Yes exactly … and, I am still interested in your beliefs and what experience they are creating. I would love for you to lay out the system you use and show how it creates the experience you are having, as I have done in detail.  
Mark de LA 2016-06-25 10:25:15 [item 21041#53452]
I think I have already said I am into shedding as many beliefs as possible these days going for direct experience. 
nathan 2016-06-25 10:33:01 [item 21041#53454]
Yes, so how does that work? Where are your experiences coming from? What is the mechanism that ties one experience to the next? When experiences are not tied, as happens sometimes, what causes that? How to your thoughts relate to the experiences you are having if at all? If you have a desire, what is the mechanism that fulfills that desire? How does a desire manifest? Etc.

Basically, how does your experience work? What are the base principles that govern the rest? How do they hair up to end at your actual experience? Are there root laws (like the Law of Attraction)? Is your reality experience a conglomerate of interacting rules like a network? Or is it a tree hairing up from a single principle that everything emerges from (like LOA)?

You often say LOA is not how things work in your experience. That’s cool, so how do things work?
Mark de LA 2016-06-25 10:56:21 [item 21041#53460]
The best zen/consciousness methodology is still BofNK & PC of Peter Ralston. It is up to you to master them. No beliefs required.  I think it is Seth that says “You often say LOA is not how things work in your experience” . I am the one that thinks your ontology is suspect.  However, as with NLP, some of the tools are useful – just like Norman Vincent Peal’s  Power of Positive Thinking.  I have/use many mentors & many sources. I listened/watched many YouTubes of Abraham et al.
nathan 2016-06-25 11:07:31 [item 21041#53467]
Well, I have read a lot of that stuff, even Peter Ralston. Mostly those are relating of experiences of those people or others and some contain recipes to achieve a particular result by doing a particular thing. But none of those, that I know of, tie together thoughts, emotions, and experience in a complete system.

Also, as you say, you use some of their stuff and some other stuff too (like NLP), so your system is not the same as theirs. I am interested in hearing the nuts and bolts of your system. How it works piece by piece to create the experience you have and how you connect what you want with what happens. This is what I have done for you and continue to do. Could you do it for me with your system?
Mark de LA 2016-06-25 11:20:36 [item 21041#53468]
Nope! I an not a guru nor proselytizer – I use fbi mostly as digital memory . I doubt I could integrate it all into a single system.  I am currently fascinated by the pre ‘80s Robert Anton Wilson’s Cosmic Trigger which does an interesting integration of it’s own via Huxley, Leary, Lilly, & many others including Crowley.  If you are certain about your truth why bother to search elsewhere?
nathan 2016-06-25 11:26:36 [item 21041#53470]
Well,

1. I am always interested in other experiences knowing that mine is only mine.
2. I would prefer you provide alternative ideas when you don’t like one of mine instead of berating mine so the more I know of your system, the easier it is for me to keep up with your ideas and the easier it is for you to relate them to me.
tuit

Si says
Seth 2016-06-25 09:03:44 [item 21041#53439]
re (2) “Refrane from trying to get others to adopt your truth.

Thing is collective action, feeling, and thought is frequently to be valued.  We see this in cases where it is impossible for single individuals acting alone to make some desired result obtain … and … the desired result is deemed by all more important than any single individual objectives.   That is a reason we hang together in groups.  When everyone in the group is feeling the same truth,  then the group works as a whole. 

So that is the other end of this spectrum … and it is not a end of the spectrum that goes away  by following that one simple rule.

Of course there are many solutions that do not involve “trying to get others to adopt your truth” … the simplest of which is just to leave the group.  Another is realizing that an individual’s feeling of truth, and what they do together with a group, do not necessarily need to tell the same story, especially since “All stories obtain” … however the turbulence of “Cognitive Dissonace Theory” can result, if “Tolerance” cannot be summoned. 

this is not a real simple dynamic … it is as nuanced, mysterious,  and amazing as humanity ourselves.
Mark de LA 2016-06-25 09:11:51 [item 21041#53440]
I suspect (via RS & GW) that there will be an option, somewhere down the road, where the choice will arise to leave the human race. Till then, the GR & Compassion seem like pretty good options; haggling notwithstanding. 
nathan 2016-06-25 09:17:46 [item 21041#53442]
I’m not against GR and compassion. I’m for letting them be more authentic, less contrived and based on whimsical or outdated human rules. Let them come from the heart pure and simple as they come through from higher realms.  

As to the meme, I don’t think it works like that. Apparent wrong timing is simply mismatched vibrations and if you take that as an indicator and tune your vibration better your tracks will align. Experiences are not bound to circumstances. Experiences are bound to state of being. Align your state of being to what you want and what you want will be there no matter what circumstances have transpired before.  
Mark de LA 2016-06-25 09:19:59 [item 21041#53444]
-XOR- follow your heart & shed your beliefs . no need for rules including ones about vibrations. smug
nathan 2016-06-25 09:24:36 [item 21041#53447]
Yes. I agree with that. There is no “need”. So … choose the beliefs and rules that support the experience you want to have. If you don’t want physical experiences, choose something other than physical incarnation. For rules and beliefs are what create physical experience.  
Mark de LA 2016-06-25 10:10:35 [item 21041#53450]
… if that is your belief …. perhaps! yes
nathan 2016-06-25 10:17:38 [item 21041#53451]
Yes exactly … and, I am still interested in your beliefs and what experience they are creating. I would love for you to lay out the system you use and show how it creates the experience you are having, as I have done in detail.  
Mark de LA 2016-06-25 10:25:15 [item 21041#53452]
I think I have already said I am into shedding as many beliefs as possible these days going for direct experience. 
nathan 2016-06-25 10:33:01 [item 21041#53454]
Yes, so how does that work? Where are your experiences coming from? What is the mechanism that ties one experience to the next? When experiences are not tied, as happens sometimes, what causes that? How to your thoughts relate to the experiences you are having if at all? If you have a desire, what is the mechanism that fulfills that desire? How does a desire manifest? Etc.

Basically, how does your experience work? What are the base principles that govern the rest? How do they hair up to end at your actual experience? Are there root laws (like the Law of Attraction)? Is your reality experience a conglomerate of interacting rules like a network? Or is it a tree hairing up from a single principle that everything emerges from (like LOA)?

You often say LOA is not how things work in your experience. That’s cool, so how do things work?
Mark de LA 2016-06-25 10:56:21 [item 21041#53460]
The best zen/consciousness methodology is still BofNK & PC of Peter Ralston. It is up to you to master them. No beliefs required.  I think it is Seth that says “You often say LOA is not how things work in your experience” . I am the one that thinks your ontology is suspect.  However, as with NLP, some of the tools are useful – just like Norman Vincent Peal’s  Power of Positive Thinking.  I have/use many mentors & many sources. I listened/watched many YouTubes of Abraham et al.
nathan 2016-06-25 11:07:31 [item 21041#53467]
Well, I have read a lot of that stuff, even Peter Ralston. Mostly those are relating of experiences of those people or others and some contain recipes to achieve a particular result by doing a particular thing. But none of those, that I know of, tie together thoughts, emotions, and experience in a complete system.

Also, as you say, you use some of their stuff and some other stuff too (like NLP), so your system is not the same as theirs. I am interested in hearing the nuts and bolts of your system. How it works piece by piece to create the experience you have and how you connect what you want with what happens. This is what I have done for you and continue to do. Could you do it for me with your system?
Seth 2016-06-25 11:36:59 [item 21041#53471]
hmmm ….

i don’t see people practically living without beliefs.   althought certainly any given individual will do that for whatever internal personal value they experience.   it is unclear to me what happens when a group of non-believing people interact … or even if (or could)  they practically interact.   currently i can not picture it. 

LOA is quite a different matter   … almost in an completely different category … i don’t see how it combines with Ralston’s zen-consciouness.   Can you enlighten me on that connection?
I never actually said anything about living without beliefs. I leave it up to Mark to describe the details of how that works. I said that beliefs are the structure upon which your reality experience happens.

I know much of Zen, Ralston and others. I have never found any incompatibility with the concepts of Zen and of LOA. To me they are just different points of view on the same system and I would simply pick the point of view that best helps me understand what is in front of me in a moment. Also true of Tao etc. Different people writing about the same underlying material from the complexity of their own experience.

Mark de LA says
Seth 2016-06-25 09:03:44 [item 21041#53439]
re (2) “Refrane from trying to get others to adopt your truth.

Thing is collective action, feeling, and thought is frequently to be valued.  We see this in cases where it is impossible for single individuals acting alone to make some desired result obtain … and … the desired result is deemed by all more important than any single individual objectives.   That is a reason we hang together in groups.  When everyone in the group is feeling the same truth,  then the group works as a whole. 

So that is the other end of this spectrum … and it is not a end of the spectrum that goes away  by following that one simple rule.

Of course there are many solutions that do not involve “trying to get others to adopt your truth” … the simplest of which is just to leave the group.  Another is realizing that an individual’s feeling of truth, and what they do together with a group, do not necessarily need to tell the same story, especially since “All stories obtain” … however the turbulence of “Cognitive Dissonace Theory” can result, if “Tolerance” cannot be summoned. 

this is not a real simple dynamic … it is as nuanced, mysterious,  and amazing as humanity ourselves.
Mark de LA 2016-06-25 09:11:51 [item 21041#53440]
I suspect (via RS & GW) that there will be an option, somewhere down the road, where the choice will arise to leave the human race. Till then, the GR & Compassion seem like pretty good options; haggling notwithstanding. 
nathan 2016-06-25 09:17:46 [item 21041#53442]
I’m not against GR and compassion. I’m for letting them be more authentic, less contrived and based on whimsical or outdated human rules. Let them come from the heart pure and simple as they come through from higher realms.  

As to the meme, I don’t think it works like that. Apparent wrong timing is simply mismatched vibrations and if you take that as an indicator and tune your vibration better your tracks will align. Experiences are not bound to circumstances. Experiences are bound to state of being. Align your state of being to what you want and what you want will be there no matter what circumstances have transpired before.  
Mark de LA 2016-06-25 09:19:59 [item 21041#53444]
-XOR- follow your heart & shed your beliefs . no need for rules including ones about vibrations. smug
nathan 2016-06-25 09:24:36 [item 21041#53447]
Yes. I agree with that. There is no “need”. So … choose the beliefs and rules that support the experience you want to have. If you don’t want physical experiences, choose something other than physical incarnation. For rules and beliefs are what create physical experience.  
Mark de LA 2016-06-25 10:10:35 [item 21041#53450]
… if that is your belief …. perhaps! yes
nathan 2016-06-25 10:17:38 [item 21041#53451]
Yes exactly … and, I am still interested in your beliefs and what experience they are creating. I would love for you to lay out the system you use and show how it creates the experience you are having, as I have done in detail.  
Mark de LA 2016-06-25 10:25:15 [item 21041#53452]
I think I have already said I am into shedding as many beliefs as possible these days going for direct experience. 
nathan 2016-06-25 10:33:01 [item 21041#53454]
Yes, so how does that work? Where are your experiences coming from? What is the mechanism that ties one experience to the next? When experiences are not tied, as happens sometimes, what causes that? How to your thoughts relate to the experiences you are having if at all? If you have a desire, what is the mechanism that fulfills that desire? How does a desire manifest? Etc.

Basically, how does your experience work? What are the base principles that govern the rest? How do they hair up to end at your actual experience? Are there root laws (like the Law of Attraction)? Is your reality experience a conglomerate of interacting rules like a network? Or is it a tree hairing up from a single principle that everything emerges from (like LOA)?

You often say LOA is not how things work in your experience. That’s cool, so how do things work?
Mark de LA 2016-06-25 10:56:21 [item 21041#53460]
The best zen/consciousness methodology is still BofNK & PC of Peter Ralston. It is up to you to master them. No beliefs required.  I think it is Seth that says “You often say LOA is not how things work in your experience” . I am the one that thinks your ontology is suspect.  However, as with NLP, some of the tools are useful – just like Norman Vincent Peal’s  Power of Positive Thinking.  I have/use many mentors & many sources. I listened/watched many YouTubes of Abraham et al.
nathan 2016-06-25 11:07:31 [item 21041#53467]
Well, I have read a lot of that stuff, even Peter Ralston. Mostly those are relating of experiences of those people or others and some contain recipes to achieve a particular result by doing a particular thing. But none of those, that I know of, tie together thoughts, emotions, and experience in a complete system.

Also, as you say, you use some of their stuff and some other stuff too (like NLP), so your system is not the same as theirs. I am interested in hearing the nuts and bolts of your system. How it works piece by piece to create the experience you have and how you connect what you want with what happens. This is what I have done for you and continue to do. Could you do it for me with your system?
Seth 2016-06-25 11:36:59 [item 21041#53471]
hmmm ….

i don’t see people practically living without beliefs.   althought certainly any given individual will do that for whatever internal personal value they experience.   it is unclear to me what happens when a group of non-believing people interact … or even if (or could)  they practically interact.   currently i can not picture it. 

LOA is quite a different matter   … almost in an completely different category … i don’t see how it combines with Ralston’s zen-consciouness.   Can you enlighten me on that connection?
Mark de LA 2016-06-25 11:44:46 [item 21041#53474]
Play a fast paced sport like raquetball (not with me) & grok PR’s quote – no inner dialogue necessary or grasp the Nike formula.

The Consciousness commands & the body obeys" - Peter Ralston

Seth 2016-06-26 08:55:00 [item 21041#53482]
well sure racket ball and just-do-it are direct experience … consciousness acting with none of the  intervening indirection of symbolic signage.   very kewl stuff indeed thumbs up  (an aside → that is directlty connected i my plastic habit ← maybe something that even you didn't realize)  it takes practice and practice to go deeper than just that which can just be seen from outside, … not to mention that it also takes a lot of practice before  anyone can  see even the surface movements externally, dancers and gymnasts are excellent examples of that.

my question is what is the connection between that and LOA?   … they do not seem to me to be alternatives of each other … they do not belong on a spectrum that i can see … if you can see those on a spectrum, then please enlighten me. 
 
Mark de LA 2016-06-26 09:02:29 [item 21041#53483]
No need for beliefs, 
Nothing to do with LOA or ???
This seems to be a nested munge by now hard to follow because of the retooled nesting.
spectrum or not in spectrum – who cares & why?

retool the thought pool or create something new by abandoning beliefs & focused contemplation
or
NOT

 
?

Mark de LA says
Seth 2016-06-26 09:09:58 [item 21041#53485]
well i don’t know if you noticed,  but the way i read the last train is that you and i agree that “Direct Experience” and “LOA” really do not have anything to do with each other and are not on a spectrum of behavior where the more the one the less the other.   everyting you said is consistent with that smug

(aside: the only difference being when “you told me” rather than “me telling you” laughinglaughingcrying)

But then i am here between you and nathan … you always trump out Direct Experience in response to turbulence … and Nathan trumps out LOA in response to turbulence.    ← that is what i am trying to grock.

 
Mark de LA 2016-06-26 09:19:00 [item 21041#53486]
Maybe N’s going for “direct emote” or something, idk (shrugging shoulders)Image result for shrugging shoulder emoticon.  Again , a not to clever observation could reveal this whole item as an example of loosing one’s train of thought (in a pink fart down an infinite hall of mirrors) or something like that. 
thumbs up – to your amusements
Seth 2016-06-26 09:25:51 [item 21041#53487]
i dont’t know … i can follow it … at least from my point of view … and i even see parts of your points of view in response.  … but then i pride myself in gorcking otherness and what actually happens that we share … so i look for those intersections.   but sure there is much more of the confusion and turbulence that you “apparently” are seeing when it is not just my own coherence that is happening, but rather that of others as well. 
Mark de LA 2016-06-26 09:33:53 [item 21041#53488]
Reluctance to abandon this item for a fresh result – fresh start & framing in terms of your rightness of cohesions has a touch or RWG in it, no?

anyway tuit
Seth 2016-06-26 09:38:54 [item 21041#53489]
why abandon when it is still alive to me?    but hey, where is the new growth?  … i may well be behind here … i was into a different context yesterday afternoon and this morning so far.
When a thought gets stuck in the low priced meat computer some call it OBSESSION, EH?laughing

Seth says
Seth 2016-06-25 09:03:44 [item 21041#53439]
re (2) “Refrane from trying to get others to adopt your truth.

Thing is collective action, feeling, and thought is frequently to be valued.  We see this in cases where it is impossible for single individuals acting alone to make some desired result obtain … and … the desired result is deemed by all more important than any single individual objectives.   That is a reason we hang together in groups.  When everyone in the group is feeling the same truth,  then the group works as a whole. 

So that is the other end of this spectrum … and it is not a end of the spectrum that goes away  by following that one simple rule.

Of course there are many solutions that do not involve “trying to get others to adopt your truth” … the simplest of which is just to leave the group.  Another is realizing that an individual’s feeling of truth, and what they do together with a group, do not necessarily need to tell the same story, especially since “All stories obtain” … however the turbulence of “Cognitive Dissonace Theory” can result, if “Tolerance” cannot be summoned. 

this is not a real simple dynamic … it is as nuanced, mysterious,  and amazing as humanity ourselves.
nathan 2016-06-25 09:12:37 [item 21041#53441]
I agree except for the part about it not being simple. I’m not saying to refrain from adopting other’s truths (when they appeal and call to you), only refrain from thinking you both have to have the same truths in order to get along, which clearly is not true or no one would ever get along because in a smaller or larger degree, no one has the same truths.

Groups got their cool shit. Join the ones that are true for you and adopt the truths you feel good about and leave the rest. If that works for the rest of the group (and most of the time will) great, if not, find another group or start your own. Groups are not a limited resource.  

The dynamic is simple. Be authentic and be true to your own feelings about truth. Adopt what feels right, and don’t adopt what doesn’t and then let the shit happen … it’s easy and fun when you keep it simple like that. The multiverse will sort it out, you don’t have to, and for sure you don’t have to get everyone believing exactly what you believe … which will never happen anyway.   
well most of that hangs together quite well over here thumbs up

seeing others truth … not as something to change, but rather as any other part of a beautiful being … is exquisite !!   even more so when it synchronizes with my own. ← in fact that is hard for me to distinguish from my own term “respect for otherness”, although i can see some difference.

for myself that is a simple solution to turbulence … just for myself … perhaps even for my biology (which of itself has its own turbulence).  but you see i am not like you in the sense that i do not experience others as a reflection of myself.  so when in the various contexts (multiverses) that happen in which i interact with my thinking, feeling, and acting … those others are just as real to me as myself, notwistanding that i cannot be conscious of them from their points of view.  so that solution, which works just for me becomes mysterious, complex, amazing and anything but  simple and singular.

Si says
Ranger Rick 2016-06-26 13:06:40 [item 21041#53493]
I do not experience others as a reflection of myself, I experience them as others. They are as real to me as they are to you. I keep saying that nothing about the experience changes. My experience of others is as much like yours as it ever has been and seemingly much the same as all of us.

What changes is knowledge, and that expanded knowledge of how things work (or the next up analogy in any case) gives one expanded possibilities for happenings. The experiences of those happenings remain the same. Nothing changes. Others are fully others and would be for you too if you allowed the expanded knowledge.

We are not changing experience itself, it is and will always be what it is. We are only adding tools to the toolkit that better match our reality so that we can do more with it easier. That’s all.  
Mark de LA 2016-06-26 13:15:02 [item 21041#53494]
I tend to agree more than I disagree.  I look in a mirror & experience my reflection as a reflection. I don’t have a twin. I suppose if I ever run into my double I could have some cognitive dissonace otherwise yes
I missed where someone suggested otherwise.
Seth 2016-06-26 13:39:19 [item 21041#53495]
well i can’t picture my experience of others as being “of them” if,  as you continually say and do, my experience of them is 100% created by myself.   i realize that timing,  and/or what happens next as a result of my own being, comes into play here … but it is not just my timing, and my conceptions of it,  which causes & selects what happens and how it is felt by others  .. even with positive thinking and LOA.    were i to think like you talk and seem to feel and do, it would not be true to myself … or i would need to change my context to consider the world like you say and seem to do,  simply a mirage of my own making.    at least i cannot figure out how … and don’t actually want to.
Ranger Rick 2016-06-26 13:49:46 [item 21041#53496]
You don’t have to try and change how you experience people. No need for that at all. Knowing that what you experience is created by you is enough. It is all that is needed to expand what you can do. Your experience will be as it always has been … except that as you start using the expanded knowledge to have new thoughts you will have new experiences. But the nature of the experiences will be the same. You never need to try to change what you experience because experience is a reflection. You only need to change the thoughts that the experience is reflecting and the reflection changes. That is the beauty of it. You don’t need to change experience. You don’t need to worry about experience becoming something else that you don’t like either. You only need to add some new thoughts and everything else follows along nicely and you will be having some additional experiences that feel all the same as they always have but have some new kinds of happenings.  
Seth 2016-06-26 16:13:51 [item 21041#53500]
thumbs up yes i can see that is consistent with what you believe is true.   and i believe, that it creates a expansion and freedom that excites you. 

however apparently you didn’t hear me say that I know “all that *I* experience is NOT created by me” … at least not all of it … nor would it be exciting for me to create all of my experience,  regardless of the special powers that might entail.  I guess you missed that part of me … i wonder why?  especially since i thought i said it so clearly. 
I think perhaps there is confusion between the idea of “created by” and “invented by”.

All is not invented or conceived or initiated or grocked by you. Most of what you experience is invented by others. But, all that you experience is created by you … your experience is happening inside your total creation … even though you include a great number of things in that creation that you did not invent or conceive.  

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