The meaning of a communication

there are 3 meanings of any communication: 

#1) what the communication means in and of itself .. and
#2) what effect it has on the person who said it … and
#3) what effect it had on the person who heard it. 


The situation:  Your friend is blind folded,  facing  a precipice.  You see where he is standing, he does not.
Your communication:  “Step backward, to save your life!”
  1. the meaning of the communication in and of itself (objectively):   A command to your friend to step backward to save his life.  
  2. the effect of the communication on your friend:  A change in knowledge:  if i trust my friend, then i will step backward, and i expect i will not die.   i feel good,  i will not die.
  3. the effect of the communication on you:  i say this to save my friend from stepping into a precipice and i hope he will trust me.   i feel good, my friend will not die.

As you can see the three meaning are quite different.



  1. meaning
  2. communication
  3. better truth


Si says
Hummm … might be the beginning of quantum math for interactions between verses (otherness).

I’m not really sure #1 is much use though. It is primarily academic, and even then constantly changing as the values and beliefs and records of people change. Only #2 and #3 are used in everyday communication … and where people often get tripped up in everyday communication is trying to assert that #1 is important when they could be moving on splendidly by fully paying attention to #3 and never worrying about #1 at all.

Seth says
the whole point of #1 is that is does not “change as the values and beliefs and records of people change”.   But yes, an actual person’s ability to know “objective meaning”  is possible only to the degree that they can suspend their values and beliefs.  It is, as you have observed, not the meaning that is usually used  … especially in social domains like politics.   It is however used quite frequently in science, engineering, and instrumentation … and not merely in a academic manner.

i’ll give another example that will highlight the objective meaning of a communication quite apart from its dialog meaning. 

Trust me, i am not making this stuff up, it has been well studied by those of us who have contemplated how to get a computer to understand and interact with humans in natural language.

And yes, i realize that this is an context in which your apparent beliefs in a non existence of a “objective reality” apart from your own apprehensions is deeply entwined. 

Si says
Well I think the #1 meaning changes all the time, especially between different people, but even for us individually. I write things down and come back someday later, after having new experience's and growing my knowledge, and get an entirely different meaning from what I wrote even though I wrote it … quite often in fact. I think most people say they do that, unless it is something very simple and direct. Most thoughts we articulate in any form change in what they mean, even literally, over time … dictionaries change. Language changes. And the meanings of many words in common speech changes all the time.

If you wrote “Pokemon Go” 6 months ago it would mean something completely different to people if they read it today than it would have then.

Seth says
Time is not an issue when we are talking about the “objective truth” of a sentence, because if it is necessary, any sentence can specify when the truth obtains.   Using your example,  “Polemon Go is a craze today” ← which sentence can be time stamped if necessary.

The truth of any sentence is absolutely dependent on the beliefs, values (etc) of the beholder of the sentence.  That truth is all we humans ever behold,  and it is hopelessly relative to each of us.  There is just no getting around it, this so called “objective truth” is just not something that we can behold. 

So what the fuck is this thing i started talking about that i have called “objective truth” ?   According to you, and my bolded true sentence above  it just can not be known (experienced).  Right?  Right!

But fact is  that we humans can, through various methods eliminate as much of the bias (beliefs, assumptions, filters, etc) that we bring to our apprehension.  For example, we can test results among many different people and verify that they are the same regardless of who they are, or what those people believe or assume.  It is like we cannot write down the exact value of  ?,  but we can get just as bloody close to it as we need.   I’ve talked a whole lot about this with mark under better truth

So the “objective truth” of a sentence is a limit which we can never behold, but we can get just as very close to it as we need for pratical purposes.

Si says
But not everyone. You see, the scientific method always finds those who are a match. There are always those who are not a match, but they do not show up in the data, or are statistically small. Science has never understood this effect. The scientific method actually creates things, not uncovers things, because it is always serving to synchronize thoughts between individuals and that causes those individuals to think similar and thus get similar results and even find test cases that prove the similar thoughts that most are now thinking.

There are many many people on the planet for who science cannot fit into the standard models, so many I could list them here all day without looking them up.

Si says
This all seems hairy or messy only because of trying to fit the multiverse model back inside the universe model. It's like looking at a painting of a tree upside down and trying to explain why the roots have nodes on them (leaves actually) and all the branches are bare. If you simply turn the painting right side up then you don't have to fit and explain things anymore ... it all fits naturally.

Objective and all similar boundary things work that same way. When you think about them in the multiverse model first, it makes sense they don't exist, everything fits easily and simply. When you try and think them from the universe model first and then try and get rid of them it's chaos ... the kind you are running into in your thinking above. smiley

Seth says

My mind cannot hold both images at the same time.  So then if i believe in the chalice, i cannot also believe in the persons almost kissing, and visa versa. 

That might be similar to the “chaos” you feel when trying to “fit the universe model into the multiverse model”.   I mean if your entire experience is deeply committed to the chalice, then the potential kiss is quite out of bounds.

Si says
Are you sure you can't hold both at the same time? I am finding it really easy ... I do this thing with my awareness that feels like "widening out" my perspective laterally in my brain and when I do that I feel a sort of rubberness around my ears and a hard spot about where my 3rd eye would be and I see both at the same time and can hold it as long as I want until I let go of whatever the perspective thing I am doing is. Sorry I can't be more exact, it's just a thing I do like wiggling my ears that I know how to do but could not easily explain how to do it.

Seth says

i can’t do that yet … i can go back and forth very fast indeed … but i am always seeing one or the other but not both simultaneously.  but kewl, i will do it some more … the “widening out” sounds amazing idea

Si says

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