A question about consciousness ...

If it happened, and no being experienced it happening, did it even happen?

Tags

  1. happens
  2. being
  3. consciousness
  4. experience
  5. quantum physics

Comments


Si says
If happening is defined as “having been played through someone’s senses” then no, it did not happen, it is only available to happen. One may “hook in” and start playing the sequence later, then it will look like it happened, like a tree falling in the forest and your senses encounter it on the ground, but if it didn’t get played through someone’s senses it is only a potential, like potential energy verses kinetic energy. All possibilities exist, but none have been converted from potential to actual by being played through someone’s senses.

Not only that, but for each individual too. Even when two individuals play the same part of a sequence through their senses, to make it happen, the experiences never actually match exactly. Many small details of the experience are selected quite differently. Every individual creates their own happenings by what they actually play through their senses … hence, each individual has their own verse of it.

Zen has known this for a long time. The correct Zen answer to “If a tree falls in a forest and no one is there to hear it, does it make a sound?” is no.  In fact, it didn’t even fall. Only the idea of it falling happened.  

Seth says
Yeah but i do not define “happen” the way you did. 

I used just the 1st meaning in the English dictionary: “to take place; occur” …. and, remember from the train where this recently came up, i said “happen” does not necessarily imply an experiencer.   If you want to imply an experiencer in your thought then you need to do it explicitly. 

You basically said, if you don’t experience it, then you don’t experience it, so you don’t believe it happened … or using your model of senses … if it did not play through your senses, then you don’t believe it happened. 

Notice also that my question does not talk just about you (or just about one particular person) … but rather specified “no being” … and that excludes all beings which exist.   So according to you answer, even in your model of senses, if it played through my senses, but not yours, you would still believe it did not happen. 
 

Seth says
incidentally, your hyperlinks to comments are not working … http://www.fastblogit.com/thought/21181#56500 … probably because the anchors are not affixed. 

Seth says
Conversation forked to thought 21329

Si says
“to take place; occur” … just fluff, not a useful definition. Requires many assumptions and “life experiences” to make sense out of it.  

Played through your senses is a very exact definition requiring almost no assumptions to be understood.

When you can give a definition as clear as mine for your model, then it will be worth talking. Otherwise all I would really be advocating for is a better definition instead of talking about the subject of experience.  

Seth says
okay, if you refuse to think my thought without your own assumptions … factor the definition of happen quite out of the question.   Then, the question, even in your terms, becomes for example:  if something played though my senses, and not yours, would you believe it existed?   

Si says
If it went thought my senses in some way such that I could easily believe that it went through your senses, then yes, I could believe it exists, at least in your verse of it. It has been recorded as having been played through senses (I believe those are the akashic records where that aspect is recorded).

Of course, I could have played something different through my senses about the same thing. They don’t have to match. What potential I convert to happening through my senses compared to what potential you convert is only by agreement and belief … there are no hard wired aspects of reality that force them to be the same or even similar. Generally they seem similar only due to a bunch of similar core beliefs we both gained as children.

Seth says
the assumption in the question is that it did not go through your senses, narry a trace of it … not even vicariously by my telling you of it.   so you do not know if it exists or not, you have absolutely no knowledge or experience of it whatsoever.  the question is whether you believe such things exist. 

once that question is answered … or that axiom (assumption, firmly held belief) is chosen … and it can be chosen either way …. then we can start thinking about the very nature of varying the being … varying the experiencer … about where is the boundary between experiencers … and/or what it means to be an experiencer.   What i am reaching for here I  named in the actual title of this thought:  “A question about consciousness”. 

and yes we always know that everyone interprets what comes through their senses and that different people’s interpretations (experiences) will rarely match. 

Si says
Okay, famous “it” pointer mis-communication  

I meant, if my experience of your telling goes though my senses in such a way that I could easily believe what you are telling of went thought your senses …

Plug that back in to the above.  

Mark de LA says
Incidentally, the IAM movie seems to think that some of the stuff goes through your nervous system even though it is someone elses. 

Si says

Si says
Whatever you think is true, if you believe it. Seems like a fun thing to think there. I could try that.  

Si says
p.s. I love how our current shared reality is being developed by documentary programs, the discovery channel, etc. A significant part of what we all now hold to be true, believe, and live, was originally invented in one or another documentary program during the last 15 years or so. It’s like “the new science” … could call it docuscience?  

Seth says
your “it” change is irrelevant to my question … because i asked …
 
the assumption in the question is that it did not go through your senses, narry a trace of it … not even vicariously by my telling you of it.   so you do not know if it exists or not, you have absolutely no knowledge or experience of it whatsoever.  the question is whether you believe such things exist. 

this question is pure … don’t combine it with ways that you can indirectly experience it.  the assumption is that you do not experience it in any way what so ever.   so do you believe that such a thing that you do not experience exists? 

Si says
I did answer that. My belief is that if my senses tell me certain things during my sensory experience of your telling, then I will believe what you are telling about exists. I know I didn’t have a sensory experience of the thing itself, it is only your telling.

Seth says
sigh.   but if you experience me telling you about it, then that indirect experience is still an experience … and hence does not meet the requirement of my question that “you have absolutely no knowledge or experience of it whatsoever. … er, direct or indirect. 

it appears to me that you are just avoiding choosing your answer to my specific question.

Si says
Whatever @seth. This is not rocket science and my answer is simple. It call comes down to what we believe, even when we are two steps away from something in the sensory chain, what we experience and hold true is still based on what we believe about what we are experiencing at that point.

Si says
The only other thing you could be asking is “do I believe something I don’t know” … then I don’t know it, so I don’t believe or disbelieve it. It is not there.

Seth says
anyway my original question was not even about that which you experience through your senses. 

When you say, if you don’t experience it, it is not there ← then you have answered the question.  That is one way to choose a verse.  That is one assumption that you can choose.  

I can choose the opposite axiom.  I can honestly say that if i don’t experience it, it can either be there or not
 

Si says
Yes, but I require that if you say it that way, then you must say that “any and all variations of it can be there or not” … not only the particular one @seth experienced.  

Seth says
… er, the assumption in the thought is that i did not experiene it at all.  so there can be no variablity as to my version or interpertation of it.  you seems to be mixing in something that is irrelivant … and something that we already totally agree upon … that is that whatever happens different people will have different interpertations of it. 

if i don’t experience it, it can either be there or not” … regardless of how i would interpert it if i did experience it.

Si says
Okay. I’m totally lost now. Maybe it is rocket science! null

Seth says
more like just mathnull

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