Individual meets collective

Tags

  1. collectivism
  2. individualism
  3. movie i am
  4. consciousness

Comments


Mark de LA says
strange how this movie never got any additional traction besides my own here even though it aligns with you other folks & is more artful & intuitive than some of the ideas you folks articulate.null There is a pragmatic  challenge though my heart follows it is to get from here to there or visa-versa.  I began some time ago with threefolding & others aligned.  There are some in FB doing even more. 

Seth says
it is still on my agenda to watc … h. 

Si says
Well I like watching things like this, no problem there.

But, even though I wrote the 90% of the test harness for Netflix in Windows Media Center (that was my 2nd job at Microsoft) and I had Netflix for 2 years free because of that, I no longer have Netflix. It’s not a current priority of excitement in my life to have it.

Si says
However, if anyone wants to give me the login info to their Netflix account, I would watch it sometime in the next few weeks.  

Seth says
you can use mine, but i will need to look it up, i forgot it.

Si says

Seth says
hell yes !!  … loved it null null null

Mark de LA says
http://tinyurl.com/zu7k9bc   ← AMAZON (streaming) null
 

Mark de LA says

Seth says
my model of consciousness does not involve quantum entanglement … rather it involves emergent behavior.   but many aspects of their description of consciousness pretty much matches my own.  i expect that @nathan and @mark will have different take aways. 

it is easy to reject consumerism … yet hard to transcend it and grow up in our culture without other influences.  i am pretty sure that present company quite sees consumeism for the slavery pit that it is.  what to do beyond that is up to us individually … the fun part is that we don’t even need to agree – see Agreement from the gecko.  our human consciousness emerges without those agreements.

Mark de LA says
neither does my “model” including there is no model. thumbs up

Seth says
Interesting question:  Do we have a right, or duty, or an excitement in curating our shared consciousness?  Or does such a spirit as a “shared consciousness” even exist?   If it doesn’t exist, if we do not share consciousness, then of course, my question is just another category error.  Mayby go down that path in another train.  But if we do share this consciousness network, then how and who is responsible for it?

Seth says
there are lots of models of conscious being developed.  the literature of the day is rife with such.  but none of them that i know of purport to be consciousness itself … that would be to confuse the map with the territory. 

Si says
We co-create the next … but we don’t share consciousness before going all the way back to the one (the abyss?).

The other side of this is that all others in our experience exist inside the beingness of each of us … see thought 20569 … so that anything you do to another is actually being done to yourself.

Seth says
null hmmm … that one is going to take me some time to digest …

mostly i cannot guess what your reference in your terms “next”, “the one”, “the abyss”.

i can agree on “others are represented in my experience”, see diagram … but that does not to me imply that “anything that i do to another is being done to myself” … to me that would be a confusion.

Mark de LA says
I guess that if you are into models you don’t need the actual things. Have at it.

null

Seth says
oh to the contrary, mark.  i am very much into consciousness myself … i never leave home without it.  it is what i am all about … i love it to my bones null.

any models or stories i have about it heighten my awareness of it. 

Mark de LA says
Like pictures of strawberries enhance your awareness of real strawberries? I doubt it. Pictures of cunts etc ….. null

Seth says
well actually i have experienced that Representing something changes my awareness of it … which me thinks is not as yet common knowledge. 

Mark de LA says
Hard to believe or grasp that .  Try it with a sand castle & see if that changes your awareness of real castles. I guess I have done too much work with PR – ontology – (BofNK & PC ++) & understand context, distinction & getting to direct experience to want to stop before grocking something at the level of an imagination, model, glyph, or somewhere or something abstract in meta-land.

Mark de LA says
Could work for ideas or mind-fodder but things in the real world (material world) – not so much. I related something the other day of wordless contemplation & how it was not necessary – see 21365 null

Mark de LA says
Another obvious question is:

So what?

what do you do with it ? – get side tracked on representations. Drink the KoolAide of all representations are equal in value? 

Seth says
i don’t know … maybe there is a  relationship between representing and becoming conscious of something … it might even be causal.

Seth says
second try at saying this … first time the vps crashed and my representation got flushed to the bit bucket in oblivion land.

seem to me that your “Fun Exercise” was an excellent example of representing something (or finding the representation – same thing) being necessary to satisfy your consciousness.

i do not experience much change in this phenomena in the various domains of my experience … ideas, stories,  ideal contingencies (math), spiritual gestalts, judgments, or contingencies shared with others … in all of those domains when i represent the thing, it changes for me … er, becomes more useful … more tangible … more meaningful.   of course if the representation is false to me, well then not so very.

Seth says
i forked my original response to mark’s above to Representing something changes my awareness of it. … but for continuity i will represent it here as well.

its really much simpler than that … me thinks you are not looking at the same aspects of this than i am.

think of a idea that has not formed completely in your mind … it is there but it has not been represented there.   now represent it … in words, music, pictures, feelings, deeds … whatever media is appropriate.  now tell me that you are not more keenly aware of that idea.   if you can honestly tell me that it remains the same after being represented, then you are quite different inside than am i.

seth


Mark de LA says
RS on Mutual Help & the Fight for Survival – community – general but interesting given the context of the movie above. thumbs upnullnull

Mark de LA says
& then in the context above there was: null

Si says
Like most RS stuff it is big and steeped heavily in the needs of the time period he was alive in … so to give any simple words would not be justice, rather some specific part could be translated into the present and applied to a now issue if desired.

One little thing jumped out though, where he says

Nobody will doubt that one would injure a person if one throws a stone at their head, but that it is much worse to send towards a man a feeling of hate, that this hurts the soul of a man much more than a stone hurts the body, this does not enter the mind

…. which is exactly what I have been saying as derived from LOA. As I have said many times, LOA is the same stuff, just refactored for our current times … and if RS were alive today he would be speaking so similarly to Abraham one would hardly tell the difference if at all.

Also, this same quote is a partial answer to @seth’s ponder yesterday about my saying that to hurt another is to hurt oneself. It is a stepping stone on that path of ideas.  

Mark de LA says
I liked the part where souls lived in eachother !  Not exactly Seth’s wallaby but probably what he is looking for. Some principles transcend the times. We are back in the times of “fighting for survival” with all the ‘fighting for women’s rights”, “fighting for equality” etc. 
null

Si says

Si says
Yes, to me that is in harmony (coherence) with Bashar’s “hearts code” teachings, and I like the idea both represent quite well too!  

Mark de LA says
& Rudolph Steiner 111 years ago. nullnull

Si says

Si says
Yes. I am good with Steiner. He had awesome information. I simply understand that he was speaking to a very specific crowd of people. They were the original thinkers and progressive doers coming out of the Game of Thrones era (middle ages) and tail end of the Renaissance and what RS said to them had to be presented in the terms and structure of what they could take in.

RS was alive at the beginning of the change of times that we are now in. He was part of the thrust that caused the physical part of the change. Even RS often talked about how people in earlier times had different needs and perception abilities than the people he was talking to in his lectures. Well, that didn’t stop happening after he came along, we now have different needs and different perception abilities than the people did in 1900 … and the rate of change in this is accelerating exponentially too. Our grand children are as far away from us already as we are from RS in 1900 in abilities to perceive, understand, and relate to our every day experiences.

Times change. People’s perceptions and ability to relate to experience changes. We must allow ourselves to keep up with those changes, or otherwise we are only thinking inside circles of past perceptions and not an active force in the present evolution.

Bashar and Abraham are simply what is current, what is aligned with what our action generations (of whatever age they are) can take in. What will be the experience model and the way of speaking and how people perceive reality when my grandson Skylar is 30 or 40, will likely be father and wilder from what Bashar and Abraham are teaching today than what RS was teaching in 1900 is from what we need. That is the norm. Times change. Terminology changes. State of being evolves. But the underlying information is always the same, as much of it as can be related to in a time period, if you know how to look for the clues.  

Si says

Si says
Yes, someday, possibly in my lifetime, LOA will be dead as a model of understanding experience. It won’t become invalid, it will simply be superseded by something that better matches the experiences of future beings. It will die, just as we do, so that the state of the reality experience can evolve beyond where we have taken it in our lifetime with the thrust of our creative energy.

Seth says
Conversation forked to thought 21435

Mark de LA says
Then too, each generation thinks they have the key to it all.  I remember in my 7th grade junior high school biology class where it was expressed that our generation (first time I remember feeling myself part of a generation)  wouldn’t do like the previous one & stop wars etc.   ~ 1954 after the Korean War … then came later the Viet Nam one which got to me etc.
From the RS link:

If you are a materialist you might think you didn’t achieve anything, but after what I have told you, you should recognize that this must later on have its effect. Because nothing is lost that happens in the spirit.  – RS

Spiritual Being is outside of time. 

Si says
Well, then too, each generation does have the key to it all. They each discover the keys to “their version of reality” which is necessarily different and evolved from their parents version of reality. When they try to understand their new experience using the ideas and tools their parents use, they discover it doesn’t work so well, because they are evolved beyond what their parents were in every way, physically, mentally, and relationship to spirituality, and their reality is different now. So they push out to discover what is right for them, and find it … and so on. This is evolution.  

Mark de LA says
XOR the Astral World (soul, mind,imagination etc...) & all the beings there beguile effectively. See also RS on the Eighth Sphere where some leave Earth evolution. 
http://wn.rsarchive.org/Lectures/GA254/English/RSP1973/OccMov_index.html 
null
Some say that all evil is is something in the wrong place & the wrong time.  One has to tap into higher being to grock what wrong might be. 
Perhaps there is mitosis of the world cell & the world soul, eh?

Si says

Si says
You have heard me say there is not really any evil … and your definition there is one I could generally agree with.  

Ahriman, for instance, is not evil. Ahriman has a very important place in the scheme of creating and maintaining matter and many things related. It is using the forces and influence of his relm, in particular the “binding forces of matter”, out of their natural context and place (and maybe time) that binds peoples freedom and thoughts and gives Ahriman the bad rap of being evil. 

Mark de LA says
Still in the Representative of Man RS Sculpture you can see the relationship between Ahriman, Lucifer & Christ & another being.  (***) I cast my lot with human being a long time ago.
Image result for representative of man steiner

Seth says
@mark, which parts of the sculpture do you interpret as which beings?  i have far less experience with Steiner’s graphic representations than you.

Si says
I have no problem with this … and I AM human. I also realize that this sculpture is symbolism, not a direct representation of what is there and what those element’s purposes are.

As you say, what we think of as evil is really something misplaced, that’s all. We can always place things better and feel better and have better experiences.

Seth says

Seth says
i think if you look at evil  as decay, then you understand it better.   You have to believe relativity in your core.   If i am decaying, then that is evil relative to me … but would be felt as flourishing to the being which is supplying the decay. 


Good for the tiger

Bad for the gazelle

Evil is relative

Mark de LA says
Christ is the central figure. There is one of Lucifer in the upper right & again on the left.  Ahriman is below imprisoned & chained inside the Earth. The Rock Being is amused above on the left looking at it all. For more see the eLib.
Evil being out of time/place is like putting too much/too little of the normal ingredients in the bread at the wrong time.

Seth says

Mark de LA says
The sculpture is ART.  ART brings into the physical something of the spiritual grocked by the artist. Modern symbolism is more like philosophical dudu

Mark de LA says
Conversation forked to thought 21437

Mark de LA says
PR’s take is interesting https://www.instagram.com/p/BJtxQdJB6zG/ 

null

Seth says
i can see that, let me say it in my own words … “art brings into our consciousness something of the spiritual grocked by the artist” null

But i have no problem with “modern symbolism” … rather it seems much more evolved with its associations more vividly experienced, then a symbolism of ancient times in which i did not live.

Seth says
null

but me, i believe that my self is real … it is just not tied and feathered to a fixed buoy ← that is the illusion.

Si says
Yep, that’s what I say too!  Reality is an illusion, a mirror showing the cumulative results of our thoughts, played back to us through our senses.

Mark de LA says
But how do you know unless you subscribe to the Newbie propaganda of already-always learned abstractions. ?  How well did this symbolism work: ?
Image result for black lives matter memenull

Mark de LA says
Dynamic existence mixed with dynamic non-existence! thumbs up
One problem is that your are hanging out in the domain of belief!null

Seth says
nor do i believe that as  i interpert it.     my senses are the channels thought which i receive information about others who are not me.  certainly my sense channels are heavily influenced by “the cumulative results of my thoughts and experiences” … but when finely tuned, the signal from outside of my being comes through loud and clear.  it is not merely a re-play of myself.

Seth says
i have no choice but to talk with beliefs when i talk. 

Seth says
the symbols you quote in your meme are confused.  i do believe that i can see through that confusion. 

Mark de LA says
PR talked about self (a word I humorously extend to selfie).  Seth talked about the same extending it only with the word belief as his anchor to real. N joined us from outer space of Illusion, playing back, senses etc. 
I can attest with a contemplation here in Paradise that my self is far less tangible & important than what I usually call “I” (story, biography notwithstanding) & that PR may be onto something more interesting in his meme.
null

Mark de LA says
too bad! null

Mark de LA says
That is your limiting belief. Hang onto it very carefully or it might someday go away! null

Seth says
null omg, you should not think that i think that my self is only that which i believe.  my experience is in many channels and aspects, the most important of those to me have no corresponding  words in our contemporary language … so you will not be hearing me talk about them until we evolve this communication between us quite a bit more.
 

Mark de LA says
But I just read your:

but me, i believe that my self is real … it is just not tied and feathered to a fixed buoy ← that is the illusion


Mark de LA says
Did you recant?

Seth says
no recant.  i see no contradiction.  could you explain where you see a contradiction ??

Mark de LA says
First you said you believe that my self …. then you said that your self is not only what you believe …. then you went off into experience leaving belief behind … & then stuff that has no words at all …. perhaps we went off into a munge world.  Anyway I am complete with what was said & not said on this topic & am w/ the back-&-forth – PR’s nugget saved for some later incarnation. 

Seth says
nope, i never said “i believe my self”.   i do however believe that my insides/outsides model of the dynamics of what is happening gives me an accurat understanding of my self.

 i interpert the rest of your comment as a simple expression that you don’t want to delve deeper into this matter … and thanks for confirming that explicitidly in your subsequent response to this thread.

Mark de LA says
Arguer – I’m done. Still carrying her? ← zen proverb. null 

Seth says
Conversation forked to thought 21438

Si says
It could just as easily be that information about others actually comes through other channels, such as emotions, and intuition, and empathy, etc. and that you represent that information in your verse and experience it through your senses. It would be the same experience either way. If you were only basing what you know on your senses you would not ever know any difference as to which way things happen. But how they do actually happen would make a difference to what you could do with your thoughts and how that would change your experience.

Seth says
i do not consider my “emotions, and intuition, and empathy” as channels from what is not me … rather those are experiences in me that i create myself … or are part of my very nature.  i can easily tell the diffeence between experiencing those and sensing others outside me.  It would not be the same experience either way. 

I could gestalt it the way you have it … i have toyed with that … but the gestalt is not stable … it shatters whenever i notice something new with my senses that i honestly know that i did not create  myself.

Si says
Yes, our senses are very “in our face” so to speak. Very compelling. When other entities come and channel through us, that is one thing they often speak of right off, how compelling and overwhelming sensory input is! It is the “candy” of the physical plane, and very hard to ignore.

But just because a move is iMax HD 3D Dolby Surround Sound does not make it any less “just a movie” than one on an old 1960’s television set … though it is way more of an experience! Our senses are orders of magnitude beyond iMax HD 3D Dolby Surround Sound, but they are still the equivalent of “just a movie”, an illusion, a playing to us of the experience our thoughts have created … based on our inner knowledge of all that is, including others.

 

Mark de LA says
P.2398 - #30,1 78-9-4-28-9-49-THU (31/8/15 or 11,581 days ago)
" Dai yot yao gih #30 MOONG, Teaching & Acquiring Experience, since it is a mutual relationship between master & pupil;  kon P.1552 & P.1858 : MOON of EARTH; Restriction caused by the Body: "MOONG Inexperience; let them seek the sage, One gains his smile; twice will excite his rage".  Experience is the true teacher & the best way to prepare ourselves to accept the truth is to get rid of prejudices which result from a narrow viewpoint; so we incarnate in different places & times."
P.1552 ← some comments about endless questioning.  
 

Si says

Si says
Right on! That’s what I say.  

Seth says
bear in mind that i am not excluding receiving content and influence through channels other than  high fidelity senses.   but that does not imply to me that the high fidelity senses do not also include content and influence from outside myself.   i can not use the former to deny the latter. 

Si says
No one is asking you to deny something. If you watch a movie, it’s an experience. Why deny anything? It’s all just factoring, nothing is being denied.  

Seth says
watching a movie is a vicarious experience … it is once removed from actual experience.  i do not experience what happens through my senses vicariously … i am directly interacting with others. 

Si says
That part of the analogy is not what is being offered. The part being offered is that watching a movie is a playing of a reality, and that everything received through the senses is the same, a playing of something that is created in another way, by thoughts.

Besides, have you never gotten so involved in a really good movie that you forgot, for even a moment, you were “not there”? I sure have. Senses provide that possibility a thousand times more engaging. Only things like meditation allow us to disconnect from the engrossment of the experience of the senses … and notice what is going on “other than the movie the senses are playing to us”.

Mark de LA says
As inspiration PR podcast #16 here 

Mini-Cast Episode 16: ICG (Increasing Consciousness Group) Self Inversion Principle

Ego expansion? See FB here.

Seth says
great message null.  

shrinking inside myself narrows my consciousness … omg i have so many examples of that.  also interacting with others expands my consciousness …. also so many examples. 

sure makes me conclude that #consciousness is not just a property inside,  but rather a pattern of interaction of inside with outside.

Mark de LA says

Mark de LA says
I wouldn’t draw any conclusions yetnull

Seth says
well it is a rational, logical thing … hard for me not to draw that conclusion. 

i know that i my experience of consciousness is inside me … that nievely is how it appears.  the qualia is inside me.  yet it can be obseved from outside, and it increases just as interaction increases … and decreases as interaction decreases. 

Seth says
incidentally, increasing the qualia of consciousness inside, does not necessarily increase the consciousness.  conversely perhaps, decreasing the qualia of consciousness does not necessarily decrease the consciousness. 

things might not be what we expect or have been tought that they were … and/or … we may well be talking about different things when we say the word “consciousness”.   me, i am not talking about the qualia of consciousness … that is what it feels like to be awake … rather i am talking about what is the nature of being awake … what being awake does … how it functions … what is it’s effect ← that is what i call “consciousness”.

Mark de LA says
Yep, don’t want to argue that here. I already have heard your point of view on the subject & appreciate it. 
A question on my mind is the Ego moving or is just my Will shifting.  In Integrity seminars I just choose to match my actions with my words.  If I were in a war in a squad with my fellow marines & a live grenade gets thrown in my trench – do I cover it up with my body & thus get blown to bits or ? What is the shift there? Anyway it would be more appropriate to fork it somewhere & use your magick tags to unite it to this thought.

Seth says
Conversation forked to thought 21476

Seth says
ok forked.

i didn’t see altruism (putting others over yourself) as necessarily having to do with consciousness. 

but, that is expanding your ego.  remember the boundary, the membrane, the filter between inside and outside is movable ← was that is the “shift” to which you referred?

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