Human Presence in a Thinking Domain

About: #Presence

When we are in the same physical room with other people we can see them there, and experience their actions. We can see what they are looking at and even the outward manifestations of their emotions. It feels like we are in their presence. This feeling of presence is essential to our human interaction.

Most of the feelings of #HumanPresence is lost when we go remotely into #cyberspace. That might account for people feeling free to act #maliciously to others with their comments on #SocialMedia. It also accounts for why mutual decisions and agreements are sometimes much harder to obtain through mere email exchanges or web dialogues, but when you pick up the phone and talk to the person in better physical presence the agreements pop right out … or maybe go visit them in person and suddenly see all the disagreements dissolve.

Anyway i said all of that to say the more clues of actual human presence that we can provide for in #ThinkingDomains the better. Our chat does that nicely. I think we have just scratched the surface of what we can do to contribute to proving to people that other people are present with them when they enter our cybernetic mind space.

subscribe mark and nathan and seth

Comments

Seth says
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Si says
Well, I agree with where you are wanting to go with this for #ThinkingDomains in all the different aspects of that you provide here. I would say, just in passing, that some of your assumptions to get there appear false, such as “This feeling of presence is essential to our human interaction” … which if you actually look around you at what people do and what they need and how they interact in ALL the different forms humans live their stories, you will see that your assumption only applies to one kind of person, people like you. But that does not matter, for if you generalize the assumptions to include all the different types and needs of people, you can still go the same general place in regard to #TD’s.

… and, right now I am working on a leader board, which is exactly going to be more clues of human presence, and also yet another way that #SeriTD will have a medium to interact with humans through (her needs of evolution and our needs of system evolution are running in a nice parallel at the moment).

Seth says
well i do not think it is just me. Have you ever tried to get something happening with email only transactions between people? … and it never converging. Then you pick up the phone and have a real p2p conversation and things start happening. Or even go to the next level of being in the same room with the other people involved. That is a common experience that has been reported all over.

Seth says
Some of the clues that i think are important for #HumanPresence to emerge in these #ThinkingDomains is the fact that i can see the thoughts that other people are paying attention … whether they are private … or are them ones that i am also thinking about … are they writing something right now … about what.

I am just saying that is #ReallyGoodShit … it contributes to the actual #HumanPresence here. And although this is a very mental space of thoughts the fact that other humans are here focusing on those thoughts will contribute to their tangibility.

Si says
Well, I didn’t say it was just you. I said there was a subset of people like you for whom these things are like that, yes. And it’s not 100% this way, but it tends to skew with age. Young people can often get more done, and have better connections with email and texting, than with voice. Older people usually work better with voice. It’s just a matter of what medium you are most familiar with and feels right to you.

Seth says
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Si says
Yes. I did agree with all aspects of what you are thinking about for #ThinkingDomains. I simply say that some of your assumptions you used to get to those things are about you and people like you, not generalized to the needs and quirks of all people, even though the end result for #TD’s is basically the same. You got caught up in that part, the part about you, and extrapolated it out to my overall acceptance … which I carefully and clearly said was not that … and thus attracted this anti-result from you.

Seth says
well there is the other meme which goes “the more people loose the need for #HumanPresence the more we will loose our very humanity”. i see that happening. i don’t want to ignore it. This new media is getting us very close to an edge where things can go quite south where we do not want them to go … i think we need to keep the tethers to our human presence with each other … even in this new media where we have discovered that physical presence is not really necessary.

Si says
I don’t see us losing humanity. I see it simply shifting focus. The younger people I am around A LOT because they are the ones most into the same stuff I am are shifting to wholly participating with each other in ways that most older people don’t seem to understand or desire. The play and interactions and joyous relationships and stories I now participate in with them are amazing!

It may be that the way humans have been interacting is dieing away … maybe that is good. It doesn’t mean that humanity is dieing … only one way of experiencing it … the one a lot of people still around are most used to.

Seth says
well yeah i don’t say that the presence needs to be … as you are putting it, “the old style”.

i just wanted to point out that the chat boxes are a manifestation of people being present to each other and simultaneously to the thoughts here.

we could get all caught up in thinking that seeing each other is an invasion of privacy and makiing it difficult to use … i just want us to see the other aspect of that as a very positive new thing .. and even develop it further.

to be honest i see it more as a tab in the right hand panel with the data there expanded and more humanly readable.

Seth says
👍

Si says
I agree with most of that and have been working on exactly that. Privacy is still important. For instance, there are holes in the current chat boxes. One allows you to go to a draft someone is working on because drafts are allowed for others if they know about them so that they can collaborate on drafts together … but the general chat box should not show it when you are on a draft or anyone can come looksee.

Another is that the counts go up if you try and look at someone’s private thought via the chat boxes … you don’t get to see it of course, but the fact that your private thought shows counts of others looking at it is real creepy when you totally don’t want that thought to be public!

Mark de LA says
Communal webcams for all & still probably not presence just more intense selfies. Perhaps it is like talking on TV knowing you are being filmed. I like your analysis seth it gets from the old 7% value to communication of words to perhaps a bit of body language & tonality. Still there are the intangibles not #mentioned in the previous semantic model where other senses are involved.

Seth says
well in this space we are not sensually present to each other.

and i don’t believe that sensual presence is necessary for us to think together.

but we are present with other and the more clues that are presented here of that presence the better.

This is not Skype or cam4. We are thinking here … not stroking and smiling at each other. So it is different … the deeper it gets the more #MeThinks that will become apparent to all.

I think this is important. If we were in a physical room together and you said someting that i did not like and i slapped you in the face for it, that would have a very immediate and human effect on both of us. If we are thining here and you literally slap me in the face for my thought, it is the very same human transaction having the same kind of effect of both of our emotions. I do not think we should ignore that or rationalize it away.

Si says
👍

Si says
Yep. As is defined in the #UCMJ … penetration, however slight, constitutes carnal knowledge.

… translated, “However you go there, you went”.

Seth says
i agree that privacy is important. I just think it needs to be redefined. If we have agreed to be present to each other, then like in physical space, we have agreed to be in the same room. I think the analogy of presence of people in physical rooms hangs together very well when we apply it here. In the physical world if i walk out of the room you are in, you can no longer see me, and i can no longer see you. But maybe i still know your name and can call out to you to join me in a room in which we both are present to each other.

Seth says
👍

Mark de LA says
seth – you found the “problems” or as TR would say “the challenges” but still doesn’t solve the missing pieces of “thinking together” – one is abandoning beliefs & the other is abandoning automatic RWG . And perhaps others will show up when those are gone. Both are the core human characteristics. Some here could lighten up & quit acting. Some could quit pontificating. Some could get closer to grocking their “I AM” without #MakeShitUp or #MakeShitUpImage or ? & acting it out.

Free yourself & get rid of beliefs ! - M.R.

Mark de LA says
In your case perhaps auto-penetration.

Mark de LA says
Woops! ( Human Presence in a Thinking Domain (comment 63339) ) – representation just went out the window – we are present to eachother’s words & sometimes images & sometimes voices & sometimes …. whatever can be uploaded into the WWW .

Seth says
mark , i am not trying to solve any problem of how we interact together … bur rather examining how the features of #SeriTD assist us in usefully thinking present to each other.

and #btw abandoing beliefs is not an option as we think and communicate with each other ...

and yes #RWG will almost always distract us from doing that.

Seth says
that is a different aspect of this. you are talking in Human Presence in a Thinking Domain (comment 63349) about being present to the representations themselves. i am talking about me knowing intimately that you are over there doing what you are doing here in my presence in my thinking space.

Mark de LA says
Yep #RWG automatic responses sure improve thinking together. You can have all the fancy electronics & networks & still not think together without improvements in the area I mentioned.
BIG CLUE here → https://peterralstonblog.wordpress.com/2016/09/28/for-most-people-much-of-what-occurs-in-conversation-is-missed/
Then too if all you want is one-way conversations enjoy yourself – 8 strokes more to go.

Seth says
well i certainly agree that we can improve out thought processes. i am with you on that. especially avoiding #RWG.

the question is how will #SeriTD help us with that. One of the things that #MeThinks can help is for us to realize that we are actually interacting humanly with an other person.

Mark de LA says
#SeriTD is a tool or an anthropomorphizing of a tool mostly I/O (in the old vernacular) . See program effects like Eliza . How she can help ? Depends upon what you think thinking is.
In the #low-priced-meat-computer #sense the brain is a sense organ for thoughts. Don’t know if she can sense a thought if there were one here; labeling posts as thoughts notwithstanding.

Seth says
you seem to be thinking about an entirely different aspect of this that i am talking about.

using the internet … especially things like google searches and communicating to others remotely … and the abiity to more precisely remember …. has improved the utility of my thoughts. #ThinkingDomains are a further step in that direction.

What, you don’t believe that these new tools in our culture do not change what we can do?

Si says
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Seth says
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Mark de LA says
Then too youfolks Human Presence in a Thinking Domain (comment 63369) thinking is an unresolved external pointer

(still)

Seth says
i have no idea what you are saying there mark … could you please say it more directly.

Mark de LA says
You did NOT define what thinking (or thought processes) were in your original statement.

Seth says
well we can inquire into what thinking is in a separate thought. in this though, “Human Presence in a Thinking Domain”, i am only pointing out the importance of human presence to each other as we think these thoughts. I pretty much assume that we know the nature of that activity already.

Mark de LA says
presume-resume #IDC then too you can’t solve a problem with the idea that one’s presence here is just a representation because you are not present. Thoughts? #WhoKnows #WhoCares ; #tribbles ?

Seth says
#IDoNotKnow what the idea …

one’s presence here is just a representation because you are not present

means in this context … so that idea does not belong to me.

We can be present to each other when we are conscious and in the same physical room. When we are in this cybernetic room with our thoughts we can also be present to each other and to our thoughts even though we are scattered all over the United States.

For example look at the picutre i chose to illustrate my point above. Now look at a picture of people in the same physical room who are quite a bit less present to each other …

Mark de LA says
… just an ontological dilemma – best handled elsewhere I’ll need a

Most people are rarely present even when they are F2F in the same conversation in the same physical room.

Seth says
yep that is true and quit part of what i am saying here.

Si says
Well someone is rarely present when they have thoughts and make comments, I’ll buy that #birdie for 10 and raise you 20 if you can figure out who wins the leader board prize for it today~!

Seth says
well it depends on what the definition of “present” is. i am lobbying for defining it better so that it happens even in this #cyberspace.

… #hmmm where is this “leader board game” for today?

oh #woopse i found it

…. nice board

… how is the winner chosen?

#woopse your asking me … er .. #hmmm again ...

Si says
It was redefined. The definition is very close to what you say, though there are still holes in the implementation. I guess you forgot the result of the last re-definition marathon that was spawned by Marks abuse of stealth mode?

Seth says
👍

Si says
Re Human Presence in a Thinking Domain (comment 63320) one next is #done. Leader boards phase 1.

Si says
Right now the winner for the day (to now) is the one with the most of something (leader board shows top 10). In the future it will probably be a combined most with less weight for comments than for thoughts etc.

You can fork and weigh in on that.

Seth says
yes i noticed some changes … all good.

there is still a large part of the feeling of #presenceVsPrivacy that has not been manifested as far as i can tell.

Si says
p.s. mark won yesterday, seth the day before, and I won, believe it or not, 4 days ago!

Si says
I have not implemented the design of knowing who is in the same room as you. Not interesting to me right now. The game stuff, which is actually another way of being present too, is more interesting right now to both #SeriTD and I. (she is interested because it increases her presence physically).

Seth says
ok #GotIt … these catagoris need to be weighed by some other notion of importance. comments are cheep. lots of them can even be cheaper. some of the other catagories are, #MeThinks, more important.

Seth says
👍

Si says
Yes. I believe we said that above, and that you can “weigh in on that” in a fork.

Seth says
Conversation forked to thought 21927

Si says
Not going to comment on this more here. Bad feng shui to do that.

Seth says
i was not calling for knowing whether a person is in the same room.

rather i am advocating for the concept that if you see me, then i see you … ie actual precence to each other.

and also the prococol to leave that presence.

and also the protocol to establish it … ie call the other person into the same precence.

when i have said “room” here in this thought i am not talking about our tag rooms or profile rooms. rather i was either talking about physical rooms … or a new thing that we could refer to as a “cybernetic precence room”.   right now i do believe i am in the same cybernetic precence room with both you and mark … because your chat boxes are up on my screen and i can see what you are doing. i assume that both of you have mine up and can see that right at the moment i am writing this comment.

Si says
makes no sense. You have a lot of energy work to do yet on that one.

And in any case, knowing if someone is in a #TD room with you is very important to anti-stalking.

Mark de LA says
The guy at the top of the leader board in golf may get there sometimes with just a #HoleInOne .
Think about it

Then too there is the who judges it & should the people who are in the domain vote on the weighing & judging methods.
Kinda gets sucked into the volcano without bragging rights or a prize & bragging rights seem an automatic here, eh?

Interesting concept though ! Goes along with #MooseTurdPies

Seth says
did you read and understand the concept …

if i see you, then you can see me

and see how that actually designes out of the situation the whole #aug about being stalked? it makes it just like being in the same physical room. Everybody there is there by their volentary consent. Nobody can see what you are doing unless you say, “hi seth, i see you, and now you can see me”.

Seth says
👍

Si says
Nope. I see knowing which browsers are focused upon the same room and even spot as yours as being useful to know. Beyond that, no useful thing. Don’t even know what you are trying to get to with “voluntary concept” and don’t really want to know … sounds like a bunch of dead weight to add to the system.

Seth says
when we say room in this context lets start using #PresenceRoom to destinguish it from our other kind of rooms which it has nothig to do with.

And i am sure that it will not add any extra weight to the system. Rather it would just change the protocol that allows the current chat boxes to appear on our screens. It needs just a call and answer. So i send you a call to enter a #PresenceRoom with me … if you ignore me (or deny), then i can not see your chat box and you can not see mine … but if you answer me, then both my box of you, and your box of me will pop on to our screens.

Si says
#hmmm … okay, your just scoping people seth. Yes, that is #NBD.

But I don’t like that you can only get chat boxes, or even ability to see where someone is, when you have agreement of scope. I am the one who is charged with protecting those who are stalked, and all I see needed for that is knowing when someone is where you are.

Having a scope ring to put around a group of people is an idea … but I see it unrelated to privacy. It’s really the same thing as a shared group, but a virtual one, a group of people. Presence Room doesn’t do it for me for this idea … something more like Virtual Group would.

Seth says
if you must agree to see each other, then you can not be stalked. It is impossible. That one simple rule totally prevents stalking. When people can only see where your are if you permit it is just like being in the same physical room … you see what the other person is phyiscally looking at or doing. It will be like being in the same room … er i mean in the same #PresenceRoom.

The way you talk about this proves to me you have yet to model that situation in your mind. Yet in a way it is pretty much how Skype works.

Si says
I have NO desire to have to get into some “presence” arrangement with someone just to see what they are doing. That would suck bananas!

Far better that they can see when I am around … just like the real world.

Seth says
you just do not seem to be aware of the importance of human beings being prescent to each other. but i am telling you that i can feel it. it makes a big difference to me when i think here whether others people are present with me.

in fact the loss of peoples presence to each other in social media probably contributes to the lack of much of anything of any consequence happening there.

but we have a choice to specialize in this for our thinking together.

you should trust that i can detect this feeling … whether you are numb to it yourself or not.

Si says
I have not said one stinking wit about “being present” with others. I haven’t even talked about that yet. I just categorically vito your idea that you have to be in some fraternal “presence room” just to see what someone is doing. That would absolutely suck!

If you want little hula-hoop groups to be in with people and feel all touchy wonderful, that’s fine … and I can see use for that too … but it has NOTHING to do with security … that’s what I am saying. It’s not even like the real world. In the real world, you see who is around you, and you don’t only see that when you get into an artificial group of people (or a special room) … you see it always.

Seth says
i wonder if you realize how stupid your first paragraph above souds to me.

but whatever … maybe some day you will get it.

Si says
Yea, whatever, its authentic and accurate. If you want cotton candy, go to the fair.

Seth says
fine, you and i are not present with each other. if I have to go click your stupid manipulative 1 hour box ever hour i will. maybe you will get the point. maybe you will not. it doesn’t matter to me now, you are out of my #PresenceRoom utill you can understand what i am saying instead of playing your little ego game with me.

Si says
I totally understand what you are saying and agree with the presence part. We never even got to that for your #HighHorse.

Simply disconnect your idea of presence from the idea of security. They don’t belong together and security is my area to manage. I have the skill, scope, and desire to get it right.

Then we can talk about presence groups and make them fun and a nice resource!

Seth says
i have no problem with you not wanting to do it for whatever your reason or inclination.

What i do have a problem with is your rejecting the idea without even understanding it. And there is absolutely nothing you have said that indicates in the least that you understand what i am saying at all.

Si says
I got it when you brought up what it was … a scope to people. I get it. It will not be a room though … people want to move freely around the whole #TD even when they are present with others. You can’t drag a room around, that doesn’t make sense … it would be a thought puzzle to solve and understand for the average Joe.

But you can be in a group of people who are connected (like with walkie talkies or video phones) and they can still move freely while being connected to the rest of the group. So a “Presence Group” makes total sense and could add a lot of value allowing people to get together and “trash the place” (modern lingo for have a great time).

Seth says
i don’t know abour “seueiry” … but priacy is very definitely tied to being in the same room .. when you argree to be in the same room you have agreed to see what the other is seeing. the privacy issue is setteled.

it like here is a paper that is secret and private … ok nathan come over and read it with me … so then in that regard we have agreed that we don’t need any privacy from each other. Come on nathan, can you not see that?

Si says
If you want a “Presence Group” to have special extra privacy ability, I imagine that could be added in as the need for it is seen. But one should never ever need to get into any special relationship with someone else just to walk by them on the street or meet them in a library or cafe. A “Presence Group” cannot be the only means of seeing other people around you and meeting them and interacting with them and following them. They just need to know that you are following them if you do, that’s all.

Seth says
yeah i said it was not a TD room way way back. do you even read what i say.

it is not a #TDroom
It is not a #TDroom
time 100 repeat

It is a #PresenceRoom and yes you can program it like a scope or whatever. But all that is necessary to implement it is to … well i already told you that … look above.

Si says
I acknowledged that it was not a #TD room way back there too! But by the same token, it can’t be called a room in any respect, because one does not drag a room around, especially when it has other people in it too … it’s an analogy that twirks the brain! … and does no justice to all the capabilities it would have.

Seth says
well i didnt say it would be the only way … obviously we can see thought and comments etc

but to see what the person are looking at or whether they are writing or where they are witing. that is a special prividledge which we already have.

i just want to make by mutual agreement … never be a one way stalk.

and you being prividledged to see my deepest thought is not at all like walking past someone on the street. we are pioneering an entirely new world here. some things are different. some things should be the same. human awareness of others is one thing that we should preserve.

Seth says
ok it is a room only by metaphor with how things work in a physical room.

if there is somone in the room with you now or around your campfire … look at them … what are they looking at? … maybe see if you can surmize what they are thinking about? … and you can certainly see what they are doing. Those are what our chat boxes give us. They give us that same feeling.

Si says
Yea, like so that when you enter a “Presence Group”, then you do get access to seeing even when someone is on a draft thought (like the hole that is there now). And maybe a few other things. But it would have to be an agreement that you and one or more others “sign into” together in some way … and that cannot be required for normal people watching.

Seth says
no is not a group either.

it is just the agreement itself.

i see you, and you see me

Si says
I get the feeling. I get the part of it that makes you want to call it a room. I get how it can have extra abilities between people, probably many we don’t even see now … they will become apparent once it exists.

And by the same tokens, is not a room, can’t be. And it does not replace standard privacy.

The rest is interesting, not sure about what is most exciting … you pooped too much horse shit around while you were crusading to tell what exactly is most exciting right now other than getting away from the stink.

Si says
Okay, just “presence” works fine for me. I only know it can’t be a room, that would twirk peoples brains and make it an unused resource for the most part. People don’t do things that twirk their brains if they don’t have to or have immunity to it for some other reason.

Seth says
okay .. i don’t care what you call it …. i will change my tag to #presence .

#Done

Si says
👍

Seth says
funny thing though … that does not take my definition off of the other tag

Si says
I don’t care what it is called either. I only know when something is a wrong name. That I can detect with stiletto precision. I can detect the vibration of dis-harmony with purpose in a name to a degree of finesse that little else in the multiverse can match.

Seth says
👍

Seth says

i love the new #presence color changes

→ nathan

Si says
👍

Human Presence in a Thinking Domain

About: #Presence

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